should I buy a Mac Mini for Torque 3D? (secondary compile/test machine)
by Peter Mowry · in Torque 3D Professional · 06/18/2009 (9:44 pm) · 19 replies
One question I bet I'm not lone is wondering about is the cross-platform support for Mac OS-X O:-). Not necessarily the highest priority immediate thing, but I am hoping it will be something Torque 3D supports very well out-of-the-box in the long-term (to easily compile and run on standard Mac OS-X systems: Mac Mini, Macbook, etc).
I'm personally considering to buy a Mac Mini and learn some XCode compiling stuff, just for use with Torque 3D (the Mac would just be a cross-platform compile/test machine btw). Hopefully this is intelligent, to help test (Mac OS-X vs. Windows, ATI vs. NVIDIA, AMD vs. Intel, DirectX vs. OpenGL, XP vs. Vista, etc)
Specifically, this means I would compile-and-test on systems that includes:
* desktop with XP 32-bit, ATI, AMD
* laptop with Vista 64-bit, NVIDIA, AMD
* Mac Mini, NVIDIA, Intel
Of course the main reason is just to test the compiling and functionality and performance, on a standard current but mid/low end Mac OS-X computer.
The reason I like the Mac Mini over the iMac is the portability and use with KVM switch. The reason I like the Mac Mini over the Macbooks, is that it's more portable because it doesn't bother with the monitor.
Anyone else think this is a good or bad idea?
...
Oh, just a personal opinion to add, I actually kind of wish they'd follow what they did with the Macbook Air, and remove the internal disc (CD/DVD) drive from the Mac Mini, to make it just a tiny bit smaller. Could still use external DVD, or network DVD remote disc.
In fact, what I personally would've liked is that they instead use the extra space to sneak in a real GPU with dedicated video memory. Which btw, even the original Jan 2005 Mac Mini had (discrete ATI Radeon 9200 32 MB graphics card) (obviously would be more than 32 MB in 2009). O:-)
www.cityherodefense.com
I'm personally considering to buy a Mac Mini and learn some XCode compiling stuff, just for use with Torque 3D (the Mac would just be a cross-platform compile/test machine btw). Hopefully this is intelligent, to help test (Mac OS-X vs. Windows, ATI vs. NVIDIA, AMD vs. Intel, DirectX vs. OpenGL, XP vs. Vista, etc)
Specifically, this means I would compile-and-test on systems that includes:
* desktop with XP 32-bit, ATI, AMD
* laptop with Vista 64-bit, NVIDIA, AMD
* Mac Mini, NVIDIA, Intel
Of course the main reason is just to test the compiling and functionality and performance, on a standard current but mid/low end Mac OS-X computer.
The reason I like the Mac Mini over the iMac is the portability and use with KVM switch. The reason I like the Mac Mini over the Macbooks, is that it's more portable because it doesn't bother with the monitor.
Anyone else think this is a good or bad idea?
...
Oh, just a personal opinion to add, I actually kind of wish they'd follow what they did with the Macbook Air, and remove the internal disc (CD/DVD) drive from the Mac Mini, to make it just a tiny bit smaller. Could still use external DVD, or network DVD remote disc.
In fact, what I personally would've liked is that they instead use the extra space to sneak in a real GPU with dedicated video memory. Which btw, even the original Jan 2005 Mac Mini had (discrete ATI Radeon 9200 32 MB graphics card) (obviously would be more than 32 MB in 2009). O:-)
www.cityherodefense.com
#2
Pretty good for like $1200...
06/26/2009 (9:25 pm)
I would prefer one of the new Imacs, because there specifically built for gaming.Pretty good for like $1200...
#3
06/26/2009 (9:45 pm)
And here I was thinking Mac users were too elitist to use their computers for something as low-brow as playing games ;)
#4
However, my complaint about Mac Mini is still. Why not remove the useless optical drive, and replace it with a real discrete GPU?
So I guess my main worry is whether it's too weak to run. Will probably need to research the optimization and scaling-performance (LoD etc) stuff for Torque 3D.
06/26/2009 (10:43 pm)
Problem with iMac for me is it's size. I want to use it with a KVM with my existing setup, just as a secondary machine (specifically for Torque 3D on Mac). Also, Mac Mini looks easy to take on trips.However, my complaint about Mac Mini is still. Why not remove the useless optical drive, and replace it with a real discrete GPU?
So I guess my main worry is whether it's too weak to run. Will probably need to research the optimization and scaling-performance (LoD etc) stuff for Torque 3D.
#5
* Mac Mini
* iMac
* Mac Pro
* laptops (macbook)
I want to use a KVM with 3 computers: 1 Windows desktop, 1 Windows laptop, 1 Mac OS-X... So the iMac doesn't work for that. The Mac Pro is really big and expensive (and overpriced, but that's all Mac PC's).
So my choice was really between Mac Mini and laptop/Macbook (or hackintosh something :-p). But I already have a laptop and I think Mac Mini is more portable if we assume I'm only going to use it with external keyboard/mouse/monitor.
Sigh, so close to being cool. I still kind of wish they'd take out the DVD drive, and put in a real GPU O:-). Maybe next refresh, which I'm guessing is at least 6-12+ months away.
---
* laptop HP tx1000 (but I like the multitouch HP tx2z)
* desktop HP (AMD dual-core & ATI Radeon HD 4850)
* Mac Mini (Intel & NVIDIA integrated graphics)
06/29/2009 (3:52 am)
I guess the choices for Mac are:* Mac Mini
* iMac
* Mac Pro
* laptops (macbook)
I want to use a KVM with 3 computers: 1 Windows desktop, 1 Windows laptop, 1 Mac OS-X... So the iMac doesn't work for that. The Mac Pro is really big and expensive (and overpriced, but that's all Mac PC's).
So my choice was really between Mac Mini and laptop/Macbook (or hackintosh something :-p). But I already have a laptop and I think Mac Mini is more portable if we assume I'm only going to use it with external keyboard/mouse/monitor.
Sigh, so close to being cool. I still kind of wish they'd take out the DVD drive, and put in a real GPU O:-). Maybe next refresh, which I'm guessing is at least 6-12+ months away.
---
* laptop HP tx1000 (but I like the multitouch HP tx2z)
* desktop HP (AMD dual-core & ATI Radeon HD 4850)
* Mac Mini (Intel & NVIDIA integrated graphics)
#7
Yes I agree in terms of product refresh cycles, now is probably a decent time to get it, since it's only 3 months old (2009/03), and the previous product refresh was mid-2007.
It is true that they upgraded the GPU from the previous Mac Mini. Not surprising, since ATI-or-NVIDIA integrated graphics is better than Intel integrated graphics (Intel graphics are pretty bad).
However, it's still the slower integrated graphics. It's still sharing main memory with the CPU. (And it's not AMD/ATI Fusion either).
I was just saying I think if they removed the optical drive (like they did for Macbook Air), then maybe they could still fit an even more powerful GPU.
If they wanted to keep the super low power thing, well maybe they could've got ATI-or-NVIDIA to tweak a discrete lower powered GPU, or just given an option to hot-switch between discrete GPU vs. integrated GPU (without having to reboot please!)
Just my personal preference.
06/30/2009 (1:35 am)
@Chris French: thank you for your commentYes I agree in terms of product refresh cycles, now is probably a decent time to get it, since it's only 3 months old (2009/03), and the previous product refresh was mid-2007.
It is true that they upgraded the GPU from the previous Mac Mini. Not surprising, since ATI-or-NVIDIA integrated graphics is better than Intel integrated graphics (Intel graphics are pretty bad).
However, it's still the slower integrated graphics. It's still sharing main memory with the CPU. (And it's not AMD/ATI Fusion either).
I was just saying I think if they removed the optical drive (like they did for Macbook Air), then maybe they could still fit an even more powerful GPU.
If they wanted to keep the super low power thing, well maybe they could've got ATI-or-NVIDIA to tweak a discrete lower powered GPU, or just given an option to hot-switch between discrete GPU vs. integrated GPU (without having to reboot please!)
Just my personal preference.
#8
Bastards...
06/30/2009 (5:34 am)
Optical-free machines only work in your elitist "1st world" countries.Bastards...
#9
07/01/2009 (4:36 pm)
Using a different machine's optical drive over the network saves money? Using an external USB drive is not expensive? 
#11
How that actually works, is comfortable to work with?
Edit: uhm, it seems to require that each system have its own monitor.
Sorry for the [momentarily] thread hijack.
07/01/2009 (7:32 pm)
Hey, thats good. Kenneth! I totally neglected software solutions for the kvm... Im using one but the bloody thing keeps beeping me everytime I hit CTRL a pair number of times...How that actually works, is comfortable to work with?
Edit: uhm, it seems to require that each system have its own monitor.
Sorry for the [momentarily] thread hijack.
#12
07/01/2009 (7:41 pm)
I use Synergy for my mac mini for iTGB dev.. it's perfect.. the pc side isn't as easy as the mac side to set up, but it's like having 2 monitors enabled.. Works flawlessly, try it.. mac mini has horrible gpu support though I don't know if it would handle much of anything with T3D...
#13
:)
For office situation it works I guess, but not for home devs that don't have that kind of network infrastructure.
07/01/2009 (11:14 pm)
Downloading OSX updates over 512KB Internet lines is slow! Paying between $10 and $25 per GB is expensive!:)
For office situation it works I guess, but not for home devs that don't have that kind of network infrastructure.
#14
Synergy is for sharing a keyboard/mouse with a dual-monitor setup. Synergy is not a software KVM; Synergy is not remote desktop software (like VNC, or Windows RDC). However, yes I agree it's a viable alternative for controlling two computers with 1 keyboard/mouse.
KVM allows:
* 1 keyboard/mouse
* 1 monitor
* switching of USB
Synergy allows:
* 1 keyboard/mouse
* 2 separate monitors (it's not a remote desktop application)
* sharing of clipboard copy/paste
However, it's more complicated than that in the details:
* Most KVM's problems with non-basic USB keyboard/mouse, such as Logitech G15. I have a specific issue with my desktop where it freezes/crashes if you keep plugging USB devices in/out
* Meanwhile, Synergy is software over-the-networks, not the same as a direct hardware connection
My plan so far was to actually to use both KVM and Synergy:
* KVM: for 19" LCD monitor with: windows desktop, mac mini, and extended desktop for windows laptop
* Synergy: for left windows desktop vs. right windows laptop
However, I'm reconsidering this setup because of the KVM USB issues. Though really I'd prefer to just find a good KVM, but maybe it's impossible. Because with USB KVM I think you have two types:
A) real USB switching, which causes a big delay, and is the same thing as unplug/plug USB device
B) keyboard simulated USB switching, which is fast, but doesn't work with advanced/multimedia keyboards like Logitech G15; although this might actually be an issue of electric power, not sure yet...
Btw, I guess Synergy keyboard/mouse over LAN is fast enough even for games...
07/02/2009 (12:43 pm)
@Kenneth on KVM:Synergy is for sharing a keyboard/mouse with a dual-monitor setup. Synergy is not a software KVM; Synergy is not remote desktop software (like VNC, or Windows RDC). However, yes I agree it's a viable alternative for controlling two computers with 1 keyboard/mouse.
KVM allows:
* 1 keyboard/mouse
* 1 monitor
* switching of USB
Synergy allows:
* 1 keyboard/mouse
* 2 separate monitors (it's not a remote desktop application)
* sharing of clipboard copy/paste
However, it's more complicated than that in the details:
* Most KVM's problems with non-basic USB keyboard/mouse, such as Logitech G15. I have a specific issue with my desktop where it freezes/crashes if you keep plugging USB devices in/out
* Meanwhile, Synergy is software over-the-networks, not the same as a direct hardware connection
My plan so far was to actually to use both KVM and Synergy:
* KVM: for 19" LCD monitor with: windows desktop, mac mini, and extended desktop for windows laptop
* Synergy: for left windows desktop vs. right windows laptop
However, I'm reconsidering this setup because of the KVM USB issues. Though really I'd prefer to just find a good KVM, but maybe it's impossible. Because with USB KVM I think you have two types:
A) real USB switching, which causes a big delay, and is the same thing as unplug/plug USB device
B) keyboard simulated USB switching, which is fast, but doesn't work with advanced/multimedia keyboards like Logitech G15; although this might actually be an issue of electric power, not sure yet...
Btw, I guess Synergy keyboard/mouse over LAN is fast enough even for games...
#15
Use an external USB drive to install the Mac OS-X updates? O:-) O:-) O:-)
Or, if it's an option, since Mac Mini is so freaking tiny, take it to somewhere with fast internet just for the day? O:-) O:-) O:-)
Meanwhile, enjoy the faster more powerful discrete GPU (ATI or NVIDIA)? O:-) O:-) O:-)
07/02/2009 (12:46 pm)
@Luke Lamothe:Use an external USB drive to install the Mac OS-X updates? O:-) O:-) O:-)
Or, if it's an option, since Mac Mini is so freaking tiny, take it to somewhere with fast internet just for the day? O:-) O:-) O:-)
Meanwhile, enjoy the faster more powerful discrete GPU (ATI or NVIDIA)? O:-) O:-) O:-)
#16
Oh no, this is bad news if Mac Mini GPU is bad :-(, Is the latest Mac Mini GPU that bad? Argggg, that optical drive is such a waste (for my specific personal preference). I haven't done much research on what the Mac Mini and its GPU can handle yet (for Torque 3D's OpenGL path).
But the Mac Pro and iMac won't fit in my backpack. I wonder if this means Apple is a bad OEM because they have too few choices...
I wonder if it's better to just run OS-X (or hackintosh?) on a non-Mac computer. Or get some macbook laptop.
07/02/2009 (12:48 pm)
@Helk: Oh no, this is bad news if Mac Mini GPU is bad :-(, Is the latest Mac Mini GPU that bad? Argggg, that optical drive is such a waste (for my specific personal preference). I haven't done much research on what the Mac Mini and its GPU can handle yet (for Torque 3D's OpenGL path).
But the Mac Pro and iMac won't fit in my backpack. I wonder if this means Apple is a bad OEM because they have too few choices...
I wonder if it's better to just run OS-X (or hackintosh?) on a non-Mac computer. Or get some macbook laptop.
#17
That would be awesome... I hope it runs Torque 3D stuff better than the Mac Mini...
[Edit: and I can take out the battery, to save weight]
07/02/2009 (4:37 pm)
Ohhhh I just had an awesome idea. I could get some macbook pro, and tear the top half off (tear the screen off)! I could also tear the keyboard out too, and replace it with a piece of hard plastic glued on top.That would be awesome... I hope it runs Torque 3D stuff better than the Mac Mini...
[Edit: and I can take out the battery, to save weight]
#18
1) the 24" iMac (no, not the 20" iMac!)
2) MacBook Pro: 15" or 17" only
So this means my alternative to the Mac Mini is to get a 15" MacBook Pro, and tear it apart (with an axe and a hammer, and put the video on youtube.com and vimeo.com):
1) tear the screen off
2) tear the keyboard out, and glue hard plastic on top
3) take out the battery
Please leave a comment if you would enjoy watching this video
:-)
[Edit: okay the Mac Pro is obviously the 3rd one, but I wasn't counting it due to price and size]
07/02/2009 (5:05 pm)
It looks like every single Mac has the same integrated graphics GPU: NVIDIA GeForce 9400M graphics processor with 256MB of DDR3 SDRAM shared with main memory. Everything except:1) the 24" iMac (no, not the 20" iMac!)
2) MacBook Pro: 15" or 17" only
So this means my alternative to the Mac Mini is to get a 15" MacBook Pro, and tear it apart (with an axe and a hammer, and put the video on youtube.com and vimeo.com):
1) tear the screen off
2) tear the keyboard out, and glue hard plastic on top
3) take out the battery
Please leave a comment if you would enjoy watching this video
:-)
[Edit: okay the Mac Pro is obviously the 3rd one, but I wasn't counting it due to price and size]
#19
www.mepem.com/pemtech/2009/07/02/mac-is-not-good-for-graphics-or-freedom/
07/02/2009 (6:03 pm)
In the name of protecting my own Torque 3D forum post from my own spam... I have moved my rant to a blog:www.mepem.com/pemtech/2009/07/02/mac-is-not-good-for-graphics-or-freedom/
Associate David Montgomery-Blake
David MontgomeryBlake