My concerns about TGEA

#1 T3D is the next TGEA - it's TGEA 2.0. Why put out more releases of older versions?

There may or may not be a TGEA 1.8.2 - There's been talk, but nothing concrete. I doubt there will ever be a TGEA 1.9.

Note: I don't work here, so take this all with a grain of salt.

#2 Jaimi is correct. Supporting two codebases is costly, which is why we're moving toward just a T3D release.

We may still do a bug fix update to TGEA, but if that happens, it will happen after T3D is fully released.

#3 T3D may be the "next" version of TGEA, but it costs money. Some people can't afford the massive upgrade fee, and are simply asking for some bug fixes to the version they bought. I don't think that is unreasonable.

#4 I'm not the one to decide so I'll be the last one to make any promises, but from my limited perspective it seems reasonable to at least expect someone (me?) will be doing a WinMerge pass on the TGEA repo against the T3D repo (once T3D shipped) to get the fixes over and maybe also the streaming SFX stuff and then do another point release.

But then again, this is the low end of the chain talking :)

#5 @Deborah: Thanks for your reply. Well that is of course logical for your guys to do, but this means that I'm stuck with TGEA for college, which I find a bummer; not because TGEA is bad but because T3D is simply better - especially the art pipeline. And we all know artists can nag ;)

Well, thanks for the official word :)

#6 Rene, if you're given permission to do that, it would be awesome (I think I can speak for all TGEA users when I say that).

It would be nice to see existing products with as few bugs as possible, and leave the reason to upgrade to T3D being just "new features".

#7
@Trent
Sure, I agree, it would be nice if that happens.

However, on the issue of backwards fixing, while in an ideal world that would be what would happen, in practice you won't find this happening too often with software.

Example: with modo 401 to be released soon, it is clear that the old 302 version will see no further updates and if I don't upgrade, I'll have to cope with whatever issues the old version has. Usually the only products that really see a different level of backwards maintenance is server space software like PHP or specialty applications with expensive servicing contracts.

The reason is simply that maintaining a single codebase in itself already is loads of work. Having to propagate parts of the changes to incompatible codebases is hell and the effort usually just doesn't pay off.

But then again, maybe I'm crazy today (haven't slept in a long time, that's for sure) but I'd be willing to hone the WinMerge blade and at least get a good bulk of core fixes over to TGEA.

#8 @Rene,

I understand perfectly. We use several libaries at work that are out of date by a long shot and need fixing (ie. DotNetMagic has a memory leak that will never get fixed, and Richer Componets RichTreeList has quite a few bugs, but we have the source for that).

I guess it's because there were so many feature and bug fix promises for TGEA that are only going to see the light in T3D that is what is annoying most people. At least we all have the source for the engines, and even if an official patch doesn't happen, users (or you *grin*) can at least share code and improve the engine, and that I am grateful for.

#9

Quote:Jaimi is correct. Supporting two codebases is costly, which is why we're moving toward just a T3D release.

Isn't this what the repo is for? Working from ONE codebase for all the engines? It seems to me there has been some double talk in the past, or someone is just incorrect in their answer.

Quote:
We may still do a bug fix update to TGEA, but if that happens, it will happen after T3D is fully released

I would hope so. For those who have been forced (by not being able to afford the cost, and the fact We have all been told by Brett that tgea is the new "hobbiest" engine) that this happens.

Ok, crawling back under my rock again.

#10 @Mike - We have a Torque 3D branch and a TGEA branch. They came from the same codebase, but the two diverged. Torque 2D and Torque 3D will now be working from the same code base, which was our intention all along.

This means some fixes might trickle down, but we had to separate the two to make Torque 3D what it has become.

#11 If microsoft stopped patching XP the day it released Vista the whole of trh world would be in an uproar including many of those who are defending the choice of GG not to update TGEA.

This wouldnt be quite so bad but there are more than one feature that has been deliberately broken just to keep the minority groups happy at least one of these is important to me personally.

Also, continuing to sell a product that you are knowingly no longer going to support is bad form imo, perhaps TGEA should have been reduced in price like all other 'old versions' or taken off the shelves as discontinued?

Just one final irritating quip, T3D is *not* TGEA 2 its a completely new product with a completely new design and a completly new business model, even garage games have said this in numerous posts, so saying its just TGEA 2 and and upgarade is insulting and preposterous imo. This is pretty much the same as saying halflife2 is just an upgrade to Quake.

Rene, youve provided mucho fixes for TGEA, and i hope the corporate GG allows you to continue, its nice to know that somebody GG remembers its original methodology I'm Just saying that GG should *paln* and *dedicate* some of its resources to patching fixing upgrading etc. I'm sorry if all this sounds a bit harsh, but this is seemingly just another example of "corporate america" forgetting where it came from after it achieves (which it richly dont get me wrong on this point) sucess and recognition, but i'm old enough to have seen companies turn around and give the big finger to those who made them what they are, and i'm hoping that this isnt what GG becomes.

#12
@Bloodknight
You're comparing apples to oranges IMHO. GG is not selling operating systems. It is also not selling server space software or keeping expensive maintenance contracts. This is development for a niche market on tight budgets.

From a pure development perspective Torque 3D is the next progression in Torque's development. Its codebase evolved directly out of TGEA.

As for "corporate GG", I'm working with these people day to day and there simply is no hidden agenda or much "corporatism" here. This is a gathering of really dedicated people enthusiastically working on products they believe in.

I do hope resources for a TGEA point release will be available and as far as the merging goes, I'm willing to slot this into my "spare time" (don't know what this is but it sure sounds cool).

@Mike
To reiterate on Michael's point, there is actually one single repository, but development happens on separate branches and propagation of changes between branches isn't automatic given there are enough differences between them (and there are plenty between TGEA and Torque 3D). As Michael said, Torque 3D and 2D now live on a single branch which will do them plenty good in the future.

#13 I'm not arguing that T3D isnt a bigger better product, i'm arguing that its a new product which is fine, but as a customer who has spent significant amounts of money on TGEA and associated products i'm firmly in the same camp as the OP.

I disagree however on the apples and oranges debate, i guess your not seeing it from a consumer point of view.

I dont remember saying there was a hidden agenda, its quite clear GG doesnt care about past products or customer loyalty with regards past products, nothing hidden at all.

I also understand that you are being somewhat defensive, i would be so too in your position, my whole point is that GG shouldnt be relying on you do fix stuff in you 'spare time' it should be planned and executed as part of their strategy, or they should drop the product lines entirely, people have paid good money for TGEA. This is the second time ive seen where proffiteering could be implied.

Whi i feel sorry for are the people who are buying the currently broken TGEA product and then learning that GG has no real plans to fix it.

#14
Not meaning to be defensive or offensive. And certainly don't want to start an argument. Also, as a long overdue disclaimer: what I'm saying reflects solely my own opinions and should in no way taken to be anything else.

As for apples and oranges, comparing the release cycles of a multibillion dollar company's flagship product to that of an indie engine tech company does seem like a world's difference. And there's never just one perspective to anything so a consumer point of view is just one part of the story.

#15 This keeps getting deffered. Every time I hear a little bit more information, I am starting to think that regardless of how GG feel about pushing T3d, someone has made a decision to pretty much tell everyone with a TGEA license that the doors are closed. that includes all the colleges that have the license, all the TGEA license holders, and all future person that are planning on buying said Engine. You know forcing folks to buy T3d becuase you guys dont have the time or money to support 2 3d code bases when the majority of your 3d code base is TGEA (and im willing to put money that you have more TGEA owners then T3d owners).

Now to suddenly down grade TGEA as a simply a hobbyist engine, seems like your really trying to sell that T3d engine, why dont you simply come out and tell the truth.. Stop SELLING TGEA if you have no plans to support it, Merger all the Forums, and hand out T3D demos to everyone. When 6 Months ago, 1.8.1 was the big thing, GDC showed off all of these new features that suddenly wont be or were going to be available to actually T3d owners, or pieces of code bases were either removed or deleted (for convience or on purpose; 3rdparty, GDC only, or just something that looked nice but it wont be in the actual professional T3d launch, but we would be happy to sell it to you as a addon(price to be announced).

Im seeing the number of bugs and faults that have come from the beta. And thats what the beta is for.. But you know TGEA is 100x more stable, stop treating it as your garbage engine. ITs 100% viable and someone needs to take the time to fold in the bug fixes and updates.

#16 If TGEA were broken, there would not be any games made with it. I know that's probably over simplifying things, but the point is that others have taken TGEA and made some pretty spectacular games out of it. We have not outright killed TGEA because it is still a lower cost solution for people who cannot afford Torque 3D and there still might be time for a 1.8.2 fix.

No one is forcing anyone to do anything. Were you forced to buy Torque 3D, Edward? No one logged into your account and deleted the TGEA license. Btw, six months ago we were showing off Torque 3D in all our demonstrations and machines. We had a released version of TGEA 1.8.1 on a couple machines, which had bug fixes but no new features. Not sure what you saw or how you came to that conclusion.

@Bloodknight - Rene was right on point when he stated we are not some heartless corporation just trying to bleed the GG community dry. We are still a small team of developers, artists, and writers doing the best we can to offer great engines at a lower cost compared to the competition. Inevitably, some policies and prices changed. The community has always been a huge priority for us, and loyalty most definitely matters.

We would not be offering Torque 3D at a reduced cost to existing TGEA owners otherwise. How does that no scream "Hey, you guys have supported us in the past by buying TGEA. Here is a $500 discount on an engine we will normally be selling at $1K".

If you cannot afford Torque 3D, then continue to use TGEA to make a game like those before you. There's nothing stopping you from doing that.

#17 Micheal, I think you have mistaken me for someone thats fighting for my own point of view. Let me seperate my opinion from the usual road. You might notice that i have Bought T3d, I am talking and pushing the point for those less fortunate or unable to "keep up with the johnses".

I am saying that if you read what has been said, its all creating a bad picture. And like most places you are watching your bottom line, not your customer base (and dont tell me thats not the reason, or in every thread like this..

Qoute
Supporting two codebases is costly, which is why we're moving toward just a T3D release.

by Deborah Marshell

End Qoute

You have said it as have a good portion of the GG employees. And thats fine. Personally, I have T3d, your assuming that i bought it for something other then personal gain. I have invested as much time as the next person into TGE, TGEA, AFX, and on a lesser scale T3d. Right now, im getting the impression that despite my own investment as a community member, GG doesnt seem to care about that. But simply saying that if you cant afford T3d, TGEA will be there, but oh, we may or may not be putting in the fixes, for you know.. water, SFX, and a list of other items. And then there is T3d, but lets focus on TGEA for the sake of argument. Right now T3d were looking at how long till its released, Beta 3 is around the corner.. 3 months, 6 months? I mean there is so many issues here in limbo.

Like I said saying that I have some alternative motive for speaking up for TGEA, how about I think the community deserves TGEA to be finished. Which is where you say, that either you will get to it when a)you have time and money b)do it yourself c)pay someone else to do it, d)live with it being broken and work around it. Those all sound like excuses to me. If You were to turn in a programming piece of work to your boss, you think he stands there and says.. oh well thats not finished. thats ok, they dont need it. God id love to see the water actually fully work in TGEA and T3d... or maybe some of those issues with SFX. If i was the only person with the issue i can see it being me being a black sheep, but i see alot of folks having to use 3rd party to fix what seemingly should have been included with the release.

#18 Less fortunate? Really? You make using TGEA sound as if we are dangling bread and cheese in front of an orphanarium. It's a solid engine, proved by existing games: Best of Torque 3D (TGEA). Buccaneer did a pretty bang up job with the water system in TGEA.

It's very noble of you to speak on behalf of the community, but we pay attention to each and every voice. I've seen Brett posting into the late hours, responding to nearly every single price or feature banter in his blogs. We are not ignoring what's being said, evident by this thread right?

If you have purchased Torque 3D for personal gain, rock on. Keep testing and posting in it's forum. I look forward to seeing screenshots from your current project in the near future. If you want to spend time crusading in TGEA land instead of working in Torque 3D, that's your time and choice.

Just as Deborah mentioned in her most recent blog, we are not prone to making quick decisions over a couple beers in a single bar crawl. We spend weeks, sometimes months trying to make a decision of this scale. I actually think the TGEA to Torque 3D decision process has been going on since before I was an employee. The decision that have been made are being well received by the majority, which tells us we are headed in the right direction.

#19

Quote:
The decision that have been made are being well received by the majority, which tells us we are headed in the right direction.

Indeed!

Yes, there are still a few quibbling little bugs with TGEa, much like there is for TGE -- but where are the crusaders for TGE? And it's still for sell too :D Even when TGEa was in the state it was in before the 1.7 release there was still nothing preventing anyone with drive from creating, finishing, and publishing a game. It actually surpasses the level of quality and feature set that TGE maintained for so long. No matter how much you fix or improve the old engine there will always be bugs. Just how long should GG dedicate resources to minor trivial things? Especially when it works well enough as is.

Torque 3D is the future. I look to the future, remember the past fondly, but don't dwell on it.

#20 umm Michaels, you seemed to have missed the Ball once again.

Qoute
If you want to spend time crusading in TGEA land instead of working in Torque 3D, that's your time and choice.


Check out my Last big blog, We still use AFX for TGE 1.5.2. (function over form) We have made a choice not to port until there is a few key features, things like Thoera player or similar that fixed for SFX,or the Water , or a list of items that we have posted on. So we have chosen to wait. And we are looking at T3d but we arent going to spend 6 months porting our code over when in 3 months after release, there is a update. It becomes a horse before the cart argument.

Im a functionality over flash. So before you make the comment about us not reviewing and looking over T3d, we do, but when half of our code cant be swapped over becuase its no longer avialable, or if we cant seem to get certain bits of code without being charge 250 bucks a hour.. yah.. Support. There is alot of items that i do post about.

Dont Dwell on the past. refer to my first post. Great, lets all get on the T3d wagon. But lets actually stop this hummming and hawwing. I hear alot of speculation, what i dont see is solid numbers and answers. Those are what I base my decisions around. I dont have the luxury of a entire GG team base to communicate with or have insight, maybe we should make the GG private forum open to the public so we all could be informed about whats going on.