T3D - World/Terrain/Material Editor & Precipitation Feedback
by Aldavidson · in Torque 3D Professional · 06/09/2009 (8:39 am) · 9 replies
So I had my first stab at creating a terrain and mini level, and heres some feedback and suggestions on different aspects of the World Editor, that i think could modified to increase the usability and flexibility of the world editor. (Forgive me if any of these features are already in the engine and i couldnt find them).
1) Texture sizes for individual textures (Instead of just having a default size for ALL textures on the terrain each texture could have its own relative scale, this way you could paint huge rock textures that blend into small grass textures).
2) Tie the material editor to the terrain painter so that you can paint ANY material you have already made onto the terrain... It would be so much better if all materials were integrated simply all in the same place and there were many more options for them such as options to offset, tile, scale all the different elements of a texture like the normal and specular individually).
3) Brush dynamics (For painting on the terrain it would be VERY nice to have options like brush opacity, brush edge hardness, brush flow, brush alpha shape)
4) If you could make strings of objects similar to the road editor but for props and more generic so that it could be used to make more than JUST roads (pipe lines, train lines, fences, power lines etc.) I thought their was an object type road editor, however that seems to have been completely taken out and replaced by the decal road painter.
5) A key combination that you could press (EG Hold down CTRL) to invert the function of the terrain painting and texture painting (So that you can be raising terrain and then just press a button and press and it will lower it with the same settings).
<Then again from the original post>
So today i had my first tinker with Precipitation in the engine, and their are a few things i would like to pass back to GG. Firstly these arent jibes, but mere suggestions that i think will vastly improve T3D.
Suggestion 6) There is a "Use Wind" checkbox in the precipitation object, but i cant find out where the wind in a level is set? Does the Wind affect the grass swaying (which would be V. Cool)? bits like that.
Edit: i have just noticed this in the code.
1) Texture sizes for individual textures (Instead of just having a default size for ALL textures on the terrain each texture could have its own relative scale, this way you could paint huge rock textures that blend into small grass textures).
2) Tie the material editor to the terrain painter so that you can paint ANY material you have already made onto the terrain... It would be so much better if all materials were integrated simply all in the same place and there were many more options for them such as options to offset, tile, scale all the different elements of a texture like the normal and specular individually).
3) Brush dynamics (For painting on the terrain it would be VERY nice to have options like brush opacity, brush edge hardness, brush flow, brush alpha shape)
4) If you could make strings of objects similar to the road editor but for props and more generic so that it could be used to make more than JUST roads (pipe lines, train lines, fences, power lines etc.) I thought their was an object type road editor, however that seems to have been completely taken out and replaced by the decal road painter.
5) A key combination that you could press (EG Hold down CTRL) to invert the function of the terrain painting and texture painting (So that you can be raising terrain and then just press a button and press and it will lower it with the same settings).
<Then again from the original post>
So today i had my first tinker with Precipitation in the engine, and their are a few things i would like to pass back to GG. Firstly these arent jibes, but mere suggestions that i think will vastly improve T3D.
Suggestion 6) There is a "Use Wind" checkbox in the precipitation object, but i cant find out where the wind in a level is set? Does the Wind affect the grass swaying (which would be V. Cool)? bits like that.
Edit: i have just noticed this in the code.
//--------------------------------------------------------------------------
// Support functions
//--------------------------------------------------------------------------
VectorF Precipitation::getWindVelocity()
{
// TODO: Fix me... this shouldn't be in the sky!
//Sky* sky = gClientSceneGraph->getCurrentSky();
//(sky && mUseWind) ? -sky->getWindVelocity() : VectorF(0,0,0);
return VectorF::Zero;
}Whats the news on the wind? I can see some stuff in the Shaders for Ground Cover, will these take into account the values of the wind set up in WindEmitter (which i just found in the code)? And one quick last thing, how in the wetness and precipitation video, did Gerhard create them leaves blowing around?
#2
06/11/2009 (3:24 am)
Suggestion 4 is a very good idea. Opens up a lot of possibilities. Would be great to have it in T3D.
#3
The plan is to go to a meter based measurment so that terrain materials scale properly across different terrain sizes and allow you to set that size for the base and detail textures independently.
For beta 3 the new ShaderGen based terrain texturing is in place where it generates a few optimal shaders per-cell instead of doing one draw call per material on the cell. It also adds normal and parallax mapping and the side projection option.
This was the trade off required to allow lots of materials to be painted on a terrain without a huge memory footprint.
The mesh road editor is a maybe for the final Torque 3D release. The issue is that doing things like intersections, curbs, support beams, etc is very difficult to do automatically.
We're leaning towards instead making some simple shape forming tools which allow you to rough in objects in your level (roads, bridges, buildings, etc) which you can then export as a Collada file. You can then share that Collada file with your artist who can build a detailed peice of geometry that exactly matches the topology of your level.
More of a prototyping tool than a tool for making game quality art.
06/11/2009 (5:39 am)
Quote:Texture sizes for individual texturesI assume your talking about terrain here?
The plan is to go to a meter based measurment so that terrain materials scale properly across different terrain sizes and allow you to set that size for the base and detail textures independently.
Quote:Instead of just having a default size for ALL texturesMy response above covers this one.
Quote:Tie the material editor to the terrain painterThis isn't gonna happen for this version of Torque 3D as the material system isn't really setup well to work with terrain. It is something we're looking at for the future for sure.
For beta 3 the new ShaderGen based terrain texturing is in place where it generates a few optimal shaders per-cell instead of doing one draw call per material on the cell. It also adds normal and parallax mapping and the side projection option.
Quote:Brush dynamicsYour not gonna get these from Torque 3D terrain because the terrain doesn't have explicit opacity. The opacity you see comes from a bilinear filter within the shader.
This was the trade off required to allow lots of materials to be painted on a terrain without a huge memory footprint.
Quote:If you could make strings of objectsSounds interesting.... but its a very difficult task.
The mesh road editor is a maybe for the final Torque 3D release. The issue is that doing things like intersections, curbs, support beams, etc is very difficult to do automatically.
We're leaning towards instead making some simple shape forming tools which allow you to rough in objects in your level (roads, bridges, buildings, etc) which you can then export as a Collada file. You can then share that Collada file with your artist who can build a detailed peice of geometry that exactly matches the topology of your level.
More of a prototyping tool than a tool for making game quality art.
Quote:A key combination that you could pressThat should be possible.
Quote:Whats the news on the wind?There is nothing we can talk about yet... but we're aware that we need some sort of stock wind emitter solution for Torque.
#4
as for wind, i just assumed its something that will be added as we go along
06/11/2009 (5:40 am)
As far as item 1 is concerned, i'm not sure whether its a feature or not or just a byproduct of the new material system, but in being able to use coloured detail textures, in most of my terrains ive actually reversed the diffuse and detail textures, simply because the detail texture is scalable, and thus far the blending has looked ok to me :)as for wind, i just assumed its something that will be added as we go along
#5
But if you wanted to make Elecitricy pylons span your level, it would take forever to do that all by hand. If we had some functionality similar to the Road tool, but where we could set what model we wanted placed at each node, and then a sepeate model that we wanted to span the gaps between nodes, that could also work. (providing we can independantly change the model at nodes, for corners etc).
The solution of being able to draw in primitives and export them to an artist seems to be a very long winded way of doing things. (also custom geometry for everything? imagine having loads of levels, you would have hundreds of these geometry models).
Thanks for the other answers btw =]
06/11/2009 (7:21 am)
Quote:Sounds interesting.... but its a very difficult task.I guess for those of us who eventualy buy the forest kit, we can use the prop painter to paint things like fences and stuff like that. It would be good if this where included in the engine (although i know their is probably a < 0 chance of that happening).
The mesh road editor is a maybe for the final Torque 3D release. The issue is that doing things like intersections, curbs, support beams, etc is very difficult to do automatically.
We're leaning towards instead making some simple shape forming tools which allow you to rough in objects in your level (roads, bridges, buildings, etc) which you can then export as a Collada file. You can then share that Collada file with your artist who can build a detailed peice of geometry that exactly matches the topology of your level.
More of a prototyping tool than a tool for making game quality art.
But if you wanted to make Elecitricy pylons span your level, it would take forever to do that all by hand. If we had some functionality similar to the Road tool, but where we could set what model we wanted placed at each node, and then a sepeate model that we wanted to span the gaps between nodes, that could also work. (providing we can independantly change the model at nodes, for corners etc).
The solution of being able to draw in primitives and export them to an artist seems to be a very long winded way of doing things. (also custom geometry for everything? imagine having loads of levels, you would have hundreds of these geometry models).
Thanks for the other answers btw =]
#6

I was hoping we would get more control on how long it took for 1 texture to fade into another (otherwise we will have to create "in between" textures, is this the same thing you where talking about Tom, that would not be acheivable in T3D due to the trade offs?
06/11/2009 (8:09 am)
Also what i meant by "brush Dynamics" was, how long it took for 1 texture to transition into the other. Heres an image that depicts what i was talking about.
I was hoping we would get more control on how long it took for 1 texture to fade into another (otherwise we will have to create "in between" textures, is this the same thing you where talking about Tom, that would not be acheivable in T3D due to the trade offs?
#7
So its not as bad as your making it out to be... but yea... you don't have control over the blend between materials.
06/11/2009 (9:45 am)
Well first of all...look in warrior camp... the Torque 3D terrain blending does not look like the image you mocked up. You would have to have an 4096 terrain at under 100 meters in size to get the effect in your image.So its not as bad as your making it out to be... but yea... you don't have control over the blend between materials.
#8
I think wherever possible we should be given the maximum amount of control possible, just fill the screen up with options even if it makes the UI a little uglier. The new material editor is absolutely brilliant, the amount of control that it gives us thus far is amazing, however when you switch from that over to the terrain painter, its a bit of a bummer at the number of options we have really. The path editor could do with a few more options, such as a bit of blending between the edge of the path and the terrain.
As for the mesh road editor, please please please include it =] even if you dumb it down so its more generic and not just for roads, it has the potential for an infite amount of other possible uses! (like i previously listed).
06/13/2009 (1:25 am)
Its little niggles like these that wind me up, the T3D engine is very impressive dont get me wrong, however it seems to lack the degree of control and fine tuning that other editors give you (Even UT2004 gave you more options for texture blending). I think wherever possible we should be given the maximum amount of control possible, just fill the screen up with options even if it makes the UI a little uglier. The new material editor is absolutely brilliant, the amount of control that it gives us thus far is amazing, however when you switch from that over to the terrain painter, its a bit of a bummer at the number of options we have really. The path editor could do with a few more options, such as a bit of blending between the edge of the path and the terrain.
As for the mesh road editor, please please please include it =] even if you dumb it down so its more generic and not just for roads, it has the potential for an infite amount of other possible uses! (like i previously listed).
#9
i find myself switching between different materials back and forth, but want one setting on one material and another setting another material ... right now i have to reset the settings everytime i switch.
06/16/2009 (7:18 am)
I have some more feature tweaks for you. make the slope settings presist per material. i find myself switching between different materials back and forth, but want one setting on one material and another setting another material ... right now i have to reset the settings everytime i switch.
Torque 3D Owner Aldavidson