Interest in a RPG genre kit for TGE / TGEA / T3D?

#1 Hey Tony. I'm sure there is a market for this. What core features would this include?

1. Login system
2. Character creation screen
3. Inventory System with mounting code (ex: equip a weapon in one slot, it mounts to the corresponding hand)
4. Dialog system for interacting with NPC's
5. AI mobs, NPC AI, etc.
6. Party/global chat interface
7. Zoning
8. Networking enhancements
9. General Experience/level up system

Would all of this be synced up with a database or locally? For instance, would the inventory be saved on a database or on the clients machine?

Some of these things could be pulled from existing resources. And some may not even be necessary (like the xp/leveling system). I'm just curious as to what features you are offering. A generic kit like this could be used for a multitude of online genres.

#2 Everything would be stored on the server, but many things would be cached on the client.

Specifically, the "Game Object Type" system that I've written replaces the functionality of Torque's "datablock" system, but I've included several new features specifically valuable to persistent worlds.

The GOT system includes the "meta-data" (field types etc) that makes it so that a dynamically created "editor" is possible.... this editor is a lot like the Plastic Tweaker, except it's written with wxWidgets and does not reside in the game engine.... but it dynamically updates the game servers and in many cases won't require the client to be restarted (but in some cases it may).

Part of the meta data defines what type the field is, such as static (traditional datablock style), dynamic (traditional Torque GameBase replicable fields), plus two new field types: transient and persistent.

These field types are extensions to the dynamic data fields. Transient means that it's not persisted and once the game shuts down, the data values are reset to the original default values.

Persistent means that if the data value changes on the server, it's persisted, but it doesn't overwrite the original default value.

Persisted data fields can be saved in a separate database so you can support "saved games".

The static and default data values are stored on the client in a SQLite database. Dynamic data is also stored on the client, but with version information so that the client can query for updates when necessary.

When I say "server", I use that term rather loosely in the way Torque can have the client and the server reside in the same executable. You could just as easily use this system in a single-player RPG as you could for a multiplayer online RPG.

With the GOT editor, you can define all of your data types (skills, spells, levels, NPC's, level data, etc) and populate the values through a spreadsheet style editor.

Another feature you'd probably want is an editor for state machines.

The NDFSM editor allows you to create state machines for game logic and embed script calls and callbacks for input events. You can define your AI, cinematic choreography, quests, and even create some AFX style effects primarily through a point and click system with minimal requirements for scripting (and no requirement for C++ programming).

Beyond that, your list of 9 features were all implemented in Fractured Universe, and so I would include them in the kit. I would change the implementation because a lot of it was hard-coded and specific to the FracU game design and that's not what anyone wants I think.

Other "wishlist" features I'd like to include if there's enough interest:

Headless client used for regression, unit and stress testing.
"Live" features for customer service and technical support.
Advanced logging and data mining tools.
Integration with some of Amazon's services including EC2, S3, SimpleDB and MapReduce.
"Collaborative" support for all of the editors so that multiple people can be working on the game simultaneously.
NDFSM debugger

Some of these features move more into the realm of a full-blown MMO framework, which I'll likely implement anyway but I'd be leary of adding too many features to this kit without at least a few people interested in it first.

Since you only have a license to TGE, would you be interested in this for that engine or if it were only available for T3D, would you consider upgrading?

#3 If it were only available for T3D, and had all of the features you mentioned, I'd certainly consider upgrading. However, I'm just a small piece of the crowd, so there is probably a good market for the TGE/TGEA audience as well.

But T3D is such a ways ahead of the TGE products, it may be more worth your while to just target that audience. Your call!

Cheers, and thanks for the information.
-JP

#4 I also would be very interested in this if you had it for T3D. So much of what you wrote is exactly what we are looking to incorporate in our game. Will be so much better to upgrade than make it all by scratch on our own.

#5 Hi,
the more options people have to create there games the better and more varied games In my oppinion.

Torque has been missing an RPG starter for some time now :)

#6 HI all :D

A plugin system for code and tools can by great, it's simplify community contribution to the kit.

Collaboratibe and state machine editors are great :D

An USEABLE and MODABLE kit, i think this is a priority.

Are you changing network code of torque codebase? I totally dislike shapebase family class :( We need to wait for our component system.

Respect price... think you need to talk to GG, +100$ for sure.

Sorry for my bad english

#7 There is definitely a need for an RPG starter kit for new users, this addition would be very useful =]

#8

Quote:An USEABLE and MODABLE kit, i think this is a priority.

Absolutely, via script, NDFSM, GOT, and C++.

I'll try my best to keep everything open so that you have your choice of each, and you can use whichever styles you prefer.

#9 Hi Tony, I think it will be awesome for an rpg genre kit be available on the market for T3D, since the lack of rpg kits outhere, is hard to find one for any game angine.

With features like J.P. Berry discribed above plus some other basics mmorpg's like:
- auction house,
- per class starting locations
- spells systems
- malee combat
- zone instancing
- seamless zoning will be nice ( although I don thave a clue how complex this task will be to achieve.)

well, we all pretty much have played mmorpgs and we pretty would like to see those basics features.

anyways, I , myself will be interested on your product specially if it is for T3D.


Quick questions:

I have been reading on zen engine project.
Is something like that be crafted for T3D? or this will be another different beast?

Also, what will be the differennce between your rpg genre kit and the existing MOM mmokit? from mmoworkshop,

I know that mmokit is not supported anymore and only a few nice hard working enthusiasts are keeping it alive for non profit if i am not mistaken. and litte by little they are polishing the kit, awesome people at mmoworkshop.

Anyways, $$$ wise , I think $100+ will be fare for something like this to help us save some time and develop a small scale mmorpg or rpg game whithout the hassles of programming our own network server and the basics rpg game logic to get us jump started.

One more question:
if you were to create the kit, do you already have something cooking? or will it be a long term (6 months +) project for a release?

thanks, keep us posted.

#10 This RPG genre kit that that several of us have been working on has been in progress for several months. We expect to have a beta release ready to go by September this year, in time for the Austin GDC.

It is targeting the Zen frameworks and not targeting any one specific game client, but it should be compatible with most C++ game clients. The only extra thing that might need to be done would be to have a custom GUI integration for each client.

I don't expect to have to do very much to T3D in order to make it compatible with the Zen frameworks. I'll finish the "ZGarage" Zen plugin that ties T3D into the Zen framework, and I'll make some custom GUI's for T3D and have at least one example game written using TorqueScript.

Another example will be written with Lua.

Your other "feature" list looks like some great additions. I think most of them will be doable within the time-frame we've allocated, and the others may be targeted for a subsequent release.

#11 Great, nice to hear that the kit is already under developement and soon to be released.

Let me just clarify what we are looking at here, and correct me if I am wrong,
So basically the kit will add mmorpg framework capabilities to T3D?
like:
-client/server architecture, client being T3D.
- networking with a backend server which will be compatible also with amazon EC2 cloud system for scalability
- server being like character server, world server, login server etc.. which can be also used via online web for client signup for game account?
- basic rpg functionalities like a regular commercial mmorpg outhere.
and your wish list features:
Other "wishlist" features I'd like to include if there's enough interest:

Headless client used for regression, unit and stress testing.
"Live" features for customer service and technical support.
Advanced logging and data mining tools.
Integration with some of Amazon's services including EC2, S3, SimpleDB and MapReduce.
"Collaborative" support for all of the editors so that multiple people can be working on the game simultaneously.
NDFSM debugger



ohh, and dont forget to add client autopatcher or client side game autoupdater.

please post your comments. thanks

#12 This sort of kit needs to be made, but it should also not be targetted at just MMO use. If four MMOs were made per year, it would still be too much.

Something for a networkable CRPG is useful, though. Stat control should be possible to leave to either the client or the server.

It needs a generic character attribute system where a developer could define which ones exist, and some extendable ways to affect the game world.

Character bodyparts would need functions to set items worn and how it affects them, but separate from the character models. Pure logical functionality, and up to the developers to make armour pieces and jewelry, or whatever. Items should have groups with limites; headgear should only be wearable if nothing else from the group is worn :)

There is indeed a lot of work needed before *I* would be happy with a kit ;)

#13 This is very exciting to hear it is already in the works. I will keep my eye out like a hawk for this. Will save so much developing time, esp. with networking.

#14 @pilot - Nice summary... sounds like you have it right.

@Ronny - Due to the framework nature of all of the IndieZen projects, it's very easy to mix and match. For instance, you could take the "Community" frameworks and use that for the master server for an FPS or RTS game. We do have a "matchmaking" service prototyped, and that would be perfect for FPS and RTS games too.

Also, all of this is scalable, both up and down. You could scale it down to a single player RPG, or scale it up to a huge FPS.

Anyways.... I'll keep you guys posted on our progress as we tie up loose ends.

#15 Tony this sounds like something I could really learn from. When will it be done?

#16

Quote:When will it be done?

I guess that depends on what you call "done" :P

I'm talking about two separate items of work but I don't think I was very clear about that. Let me clarify.

The first item of work is a game engine agnostic set of game development middleware and tools, primarily tailored for scalable online games and virtual worlds. It also includes an RPG genre kit.

This will be ready for beta testing in September.

The other item of work is integrating this with Torque.

I won't really know how long this will take until I dig into it, which won't happen until after T3D goes "gold."

I missed another question and I think it's a good one, so I'll answer it here:

Quote:Also, what will be the differennce between your rpg genre kit and the existing MOM mmokit? from mmoworkshop,

I don't think it's fair to do a comparison between a stable, complete product and something that's still under development, but I will point out a few key differences that we have finished now. (i.e. not "planned vaporware")

With this kit, the core code is kept completely separate from the examples, and you start with a blank slate that consists of only a few lines of script.

There are plenty of examples, documentation and resources that you can use to help you get started, but you start with a blank slate.

With this kit we make it painlessly obvious that you're writing a game not a MOD.

Another difference with this kit is that nearly everything is in C++, yet you're unlikely to need a C++ compiler. You get the source code but you shouldn't need it.

In my book, that's a huge plus.

Another difference is you get your choice of scripting languages. The MMO Workshop kit I think mostly used Torque Script and Python. This kit at the moment allows you to choose between Lua and Python (my personal preference is Lua and probably most of the examples will be in Lua, but the choice is still yours).

(vaporware alert)
We're also looking to make other languages available, including C#, JavaScript and possibly Squirrel and others. Note: You choose ONE of these languages for scripting. You shouldn't use more than one for any given game project.

The biggest distinguishing factor will be obvious when you see the tools that come with this kit, but in the spirit of not mentioning incomplete features, I'll leave it at that.

#17 An RPG kit, with networking support, for Torque, with Lua/Python integration examples is worth paying money for. Zero interest in C#, as there's already Torque X, and I wouldn't know Squirrel if it bit me in the nuts.

A bunch of drop-in C++ that lets you get started making the logic in script seems great. I hope you can really do it :)

#18 Good, is nice to hear the C++ that we practicly no need to use a compiler since most or at least some of us are not that good at it, hate it.

So its mentioned that there is 2 entities that will or is being worked on.

1 being the actual middleware and tools engine with the rpg genre kit.

and the other will be the actual incorporation of T3D to it, right?
so this wont be done not until t3d goes gold which means probably next year. or gold means just out of beta?


But, with the middleware and tools engine with teh rpg genre kit, can you can still use it standalone and or use it with other game angines?

But how hard it will be to incorporate another game engine to it or what do you need, ie: game engine source code?

for instance Unity3d since they dont release source code for it, is it even possible?


thanks

#19 By T3D going "gold" I mean after the beta has ended and the number of (valid) reported bugs decreases to almost zero.

We're currently testing it with a custom game client and so we definitely are not waiting for T3D.

I know exactly what you mean about the hatred for C++. It's a necessary evil for us, but we're not passing that evil on to the people using the kit. :P

#20 Oh, to answer your question about "how difficult to integrate other clients."

It's beyond the skill level of most people.

But not to worry... you will have several choices.