My return to what I love most: Terrain
by Jacob Dankovchik · in Torque 3D Professional · 05/06/2009 (1:10 pm) · 82 replies
For the longest time I've been completely out of the GG community. Truth be told, after TGEA, which I considered a total flop, I had completely lost faith. With the comming of this new engine, I decided to give GG one last shot.
My biggest thing back in the day was particle effects, and terrain. I would spend hours on end playing with Atlas, making terrain after another. Mostly I'm waiting for the soft particles to make it in before I tear into those. So for now, I'm playing with terrains, and this is the result of about.. 1 day of playing.
First off, I'd like to mention the lighting. While it appears to be great at a small scale, when you scale the terrains up, it starts getting very ugly. Tweak some settings and it gets better, sometimes much better. Basically, some nice default values are going to have to be found and a good, all-inclusive menu for easily changing all settings. But, as many as there are, it would still be good to have default access to all of them, such as through an Advanced Settings menu. In other words, there's a lot of numbers to tweak, but that's a good thing because you get a lot of control.
There seems to be some inevitable lose of shadow accuracy as size goes up, which concerns me a bit, but I'll worry about that more at a later date, if it's in any way an issue.
I'd like to state that the realtime tools is a MASSIVE plus. Being able to cook up a beautiful heightmap in L3DT and then further changing it in-game is such a wonderful step for me.
One thing that I found which concerned me a bit was the height limit of 2047. While some may find this to be enough, I simply don't. :P All my time with Atlas, I did nothing but push the limits with it, as I'm doing with this new setup and honestly 2047 meters just isn't enough. For some people who are trying to make a beautiful set of mountains, it's just too small. Perhaps this is something easily fixed/changed, I'm not sure yet as I've no way to mess with source on this comp yet. But just pointing it out.
Basically, I think there is a LOT of potential in the terrain system and I'd certainly like to see some of the other people here get in on it as well. :D
Since I've just barely begun touching on the terrain, I haven't taken the time to really work with texturing yet. That's the next step for me. But here are a few shots of what I've thrown together right away. Max height is 550m, 4096x4096 in area. Had to tweak a few settings to get it to something I can find acceptable.
My biggest thing back in the day was particle effects, and terrain. I would spend hours on end playing with Atlas, making terrain after another. Mostly I'm waiting for the soft particles to make it in before I tear into those. So for now, I'm playing with terrains, and this is the result of about.. 1 day of playing.
First off, I'd like to mention the lighting. While it appears to be great at a small scale, when you scale the terrains up, it starts getting very ugly. Tweak some settings and it gets better, sometimes much better. Basically, some nice default values are going to have to be found and a good, all-inclusive menu for easily changing all settings. But, as many as there are, it would still be good to have default access to all of them, such as through an Advanced Settings menu. In other words, there's a lot of numbers to tweak, but that's a good thing because you get a lot of control.
There seems to be some inevitable lose of shadow accuracy as size goes up, which concerns me a bit, but I'll worry about that more at a later date, if it's in any way an issue.
I'd like to state that the realtime tools is a MASSIVE plus. Being able to cook up a beautiful heightmap in L3DT and then further changing it in-game is such a wonderful step for me.
One thing that I found which concerned me a bit was the height limit of 2047. While some may find this to be enough, I simply don't. :P All my time with Atlas, I did nothing but push the limits with it, as I'm doing with this new setup and honestly 2047 meters just isn't enough. For some people who are trying to make a beautiful set of mountains, it's just too small. Perhaps this is something easily fixed/changed, I'm not sure yet as I've no way to mess with source on this comp yet. But just pointing it out.
Basically, I think there is a LOT of potential in the terrain system and I'd certainly like to see some of the other people here get in on it as well. :D
Since I've just barely begun touching on the terrain, I haven't taken the time to really work with texturing yet. That's the next step for me. But here are a few shots of what I've thrown together right away. Max height is 550m, 4096x4096 in area. Had to tweak a few settings to get it to something I can find acceptable.
About the author
#2
http://www.garagegames.com/community/resources/view/17145
05/06/2009 (2:44 pm)
i think you will find this resource usefull when fixing the textures:http://www.garagegames.com/community/resources/view/17145
#3
05/06/2009 (2:44 pm)
Great shots! Thanks for posting =) I like screenshots hehe
#4
They are?! I could've sworn I read they weren't.. Welll.. Looks like I just lost more free time.
05/06/2009 (3:09 pm)
Quote:soft particles are in already.
They are?! I could've sworn I read they weren't.. Welll.. Looks like I just lost more free time.
#5
05/06/2009 (3:33 pm)
Yep they are (I ported them to T3D myself). The effect isn't super noticeable, but it definitely does what it's supposed to. Note though, that soft particles really don't make particles that are the be-all end-all of particle effects. Literally, all they do is fade out on intersections with the scene geometry (though it doesn't work with the water, since the water surface isn't rendered into the depth pass). 
#6
05/06/2009 (3:52 pm)
I haven't noticed soft particles in any of the demos or the template projects I've cooked so far. Is there a specific switch that needs to be turned on or am I just going blind :)? If I knew they were already available, I wouldn't have written a shader for them :D. Well at least it was only a couple of hours out of my day :) 
#7
If you look at GTA4, Far Cry 2, Fable 2, Assassins Creed, or any of the recent open world games... all of them stop casting shadows on distant objects at some point or another.
Its something that i'm looking to improve.
Also another note that will be in the docs, but isn't yet.
You want to run your detail textures thru the Photoshop (or Gimp or whatever) high pass filter. It will desaturate the image making it blend better with the base terrain texture while still retaining some of its coloration. It totally makes the detail texturing fade out without a noticeable line in the scene.
This shouldn't be done to the base textures... just the detail textures. Its one of the tricks that makes Crysis's ground textures look so freaking good.
05/06/2009 (3:57 pm)
Hey Jacob.Quote:While it appears to be great at a small scale, when you scale the terrains up, it starts getting very ugly.Could you give me some more specific feedback on what makes it ugly? Is there something in the screenshots above you can point at?
Quote:There seems to be some inevitable lose of shadow accuracy as size goes upThere is one more trick left up my sleeve there, but yea... it is inevitable.
If you look at GTA4, Far Cry 2, Fable 2, Assassins Creed, or any of the recent open world games... all of them stop casting shadows on distant objects at some point or another.
Quote:One thing that I found which concerned me a bit was the height limit of 2047Where are you seeing that limit? Its possibly just a GUI thing... there is no limit to how much we can scale the terrain geometry.
Quote:Max height is 550m, 4096x4096 in area.Thats a pretty huge terrain. Take a look at your memory usage... its probably like over 1GB. The issue is that we still use the old Tribes 2 collision system for terrain... its just scaled up to 4096x4096... hence the huge memory usage.
Its something that i'm looking to improve.
Also another note that will be in the docs, but isn't yet.
You want to run your detail textures thru the Photoshop (or Gimp or whatever) high pass filter. It will desaturate the image making it blend better with the base terrain texture while still retaining some of its coloration. It totally makes the detail texturing fade out without a noticeable line in the scene.
This shouldn't be done to the base textures... just the detail textures. Its one of the tricks that makes Crysis's ground textures look so freaking good.
#8
* - I feel the need to point out that ALL the soft particle shader does is get rid of the hard line with intersections. The particles still have the same lighting/shading model and everything, so other than not having that hard line at places where they intersect the scene geometry, they are exactly the same as they've been. If you want particles that look MUCH better, I suggest searching around for deferred particle shading/lighting and implementing that. Unfortunately, we just don't have enough time to sink into the particle system here at work or I'd want to do it myself.
05/06/2009 (4:04 pm)
@Afan, you probably didn't notice them because honestly, it isn't that noticeable*. And nah, you don't have to do anything special. Currently *all* particles render using the soft particle shader (which I think is called just "particleP/etc.").* - I feel the need to point out that ALL the soft particle shader does is get rid of the hard line with intersections. The particles still have the same lighting/shading model and everything, so other than not having that hard line at places where they intersect the scene geometry, they are exactly the same as they've been. If you want particles that look MUCH better, I suggest searching around for deferred particle shading/lighting and implementing that. Unfortunately, we just don't have enough time to sink into the particle system here at work or I'd want to do it myself.
#9
www.garagegames.com/community/forums/viewthread/90755
This thread is a good example of the exact same issue I was having. Sure enough, play around with the settings, and it smooths out very well. It just requires a fair bit of play at first.
Actually, I first found it when I was generating a terrain. I made one about 9000m high, but I noticed what was spit out was in NO way 9k. Soo, using the only way I could think of at the time, used the player to approximate how much range I did have, and I believe i got somewhere around 1800. Then I started doing a lot of trial and error with importing terrains. If you set the scale to 2047, it comes out as 2047. Set it to 2048, it comes out flat. It seems to subtract off anything beyond that, so with my 9000, I still got something, just not all of the height.
I then later noticed this is also the limit in raising the terrain with the adjust height tool. It simply goes flat, as if hitting a ceiling.
Oh, and I know about the detail texture thing. Unfortunately my main computer died, hoping to get around to rebuilding it tonight. Until then, I have to use my brand new laptop, which has no real software at all on it, and I don't feel like installing it all when I'll have my other computer back so soon. So for now, I'm just using what I can, even though it makes me cringe...
Also, just a little update on myself here, in my process of learning. I got the whole texture mask thing going. :D
05/06/2009 (5:21 pm)
Well, took another look at things, and yes, now that I actually look at some of the effects, the soft particles are there. And yes, I know very well what they do, and it's a touch-up I've been dying for. One of the greatest flaws in my effects is the hard intersections, it drives me insane!Quote:Could you give me some more specific feedback on what makes it ugly? Is there something in the screenshots above you can point at?
www.garagegames.com/community/forums/viewthread/90755
This thread is a good example of the exact same issue I was having. Sure enough, play around with the settings, and it smooths out very well. It just requires a fair bit of play at first.
Quote:Where are you seeing that limit? Its possibly just a GUI thing... there is no limit to how much we can scale the terrain geometry.
Actually, I first found it when I was generating a terrain. I made one about 9000m high, but I noticed what was spit out was in NO way 9k. Soo, using the only way I could think of at the time, used the player to approximate how much range I did have, and I believe i got somewhere around 1800. Then I started doing a lot of trial and error with importing terrains. If you set the scale to 2047, it comes out as 2047. Set it to 2048, it comes out flat. It seems to subtract off anything beyond that, so with my 9000, I still got something, just not all of the height.
I then later noticed this is also the limit in raising the terrain with the adjust height tool. It simply goes flat, as if hitting a ceiling.
Oh, and I know about the detail texture thing. Unfortunately my main computer died, hoping to get around to rebuilding it tonight. Until then, I have to use my brand new laptop, which has no real software at all on it, and I don't feel like installing it all when I'll have my other computer back so soon. So for now, I'm just using what I can, even though it makes me cringe...
Also, just a little update on myself here, in my process of learning. I got the whole texture mask thing going. :D
#10
05/06/2009 (5:23 pm)
Lookin' good :)
#11
Also from that last screenshot seems like you suffer from this issue as well. Do you happen to have an ATI card in that box?
05/06/2009 (5:55 pm)
@Jacob - Make sure you submit the 2048 limit in a seperate bug thread... it should be fixable.Also from that last screenshot seems like you suffer from this issue as well. Do you happen to have an ATI card in that box?
#12
05/06/2009 (5:57 pm)
Indeed I do, ATI Mobility Radeon HD 3480. And i'll get to posting the bug thread. 
#14
05/06/2009 (9:20 pm)
Nice shots Jacob! Awesome to see you back! 
#16
05/07/2009 (5:56 am)
Quote:You want to run your detail textures thru the Photoshop (or Gimp or whatever) high pass filter. It will desaturate the image making it blend better with the base terrain texture while still retaining some of its coloration. It totally makes the detail texturing fade out without a noticeable line in the scene.Tom and I disagree on the necessity of a high pass filter. I find that using it liberally on detail textures gives artifacts and just generally looks unnatural. I really just favor desaturation and contrast changes instead. Use your own judgement.
This shouldn't be done to the base textures... just the detail textures. Its one of the tricks that makes Crysis's ground textures look so freaking good.
#17
WarriorCamp by the way is a perfect example of how NOT to use terrain detail textures. You can clearly see the detail fade line and worse all the near terrain is brightly colored and the distant terrain looks bland by comparison. They need to desaturate those detail textures.
The high pass filter is a simple way to get the technically perfect amount of desaturation while not totally removing all the colors in the texture. Its a very useful tool for programmers or others that, like myself, barely know there way around Photoshop.
There is a good old article on high pass filters and its use in detail texturing over here.
05/07/2009 (12:15 pm)
@Russell - Your right... you can desaturate the image by hand and it will give you full control. With the live texture updates it makes it easier as you can tweak the detail texture a bunch of times until you finally get the right balance which doesn't cause a the detail fadeout to be too apparent.WarriorCamp by the way is a perfect example of how NOT to use terrain detail textures. You can clearly see the detail fade line and worse all the near terrain is brightly colored and the distant terrain looks bland by comparison. They need to desaturate those detail textures.
The high pass filter is a simple way to get the technically perfect amount of desaturation while not totally removing all the colors in the texture. Its a very useful tool for programmers or others that, like myself, barely know there way around Photoshop.
There is a good old article on high pass filters and its use in detail texturing over here.
#18
05/08/2009 (5:42 pm)
@Ross thanks for the info... I guess I didn't check in the most obvious place :)
#19
And of course, I have quite a few more made than what's being used in this mission. And I plan to make many more still.
Old textures:
New Textures:
By all means, give opinions. I'd certainly like to hear them, as I'm honestly a bit new to the texture scene with terrains, more used to just the construction part. And I apologize for thumbnails, I personally hate them, but didn't want to flood everyone with lots of large pics.
05/16/2009 (6:28 pm)
I've been working on making some new textures. I decided to put the new materials in place of the originals in the old demo map. Personally I like the redone ones quite a bit, however I'm very displeased with the grass and will be redoing it, and I may revisit the rock as well.And of course, I have quite a few more made than what's being used in this mission. And I plan to make many more still.
Old textures:
New Textures:
By all means, give opinions. I'd certainly like to hear them, as I'm honestly a bit new to the texture scene with terrains, more used to just the construction part. And I apologize for thumbnails, I personally hate them, but didn't want to flood everyone with lots of large pics.
#20
05/18/2009 (11:34 pm)
@Jacob: Nice terrain stuff... Quick plug, if you're interested in working on terrain for an outdoor modern/future city, then please reply here: (www.garagegames.com/community/blogs/view/17191). thank you
Associate Ross Pawley