T3D and hobby development
by Matt Brasier · in General Discussion · 04/18/2009 (2:40 am) · 29 replies
Looking at the licensing options for T3D, it seems that hobby developers are no longer a target market for GG. For $250 I can get a basic license, but without the source code, or 'genre kit' compatibility I am limited to producing mods, and therefore FPS games (not my genre). The Pro license is $1000, and therefore out of my price range, as I have no plans to ever publish a game.
It seems GG is targeting modders and indie developers, but no longer hobby developers, which is a shame.
Matt
It seems GG is targeting modders and indie developers, but no longer hobby developers, which is a shame.
Matt
About the author
#22
I'm not suggesting there's anything fundamentally wrong with them going in this direction, but as hobbyists it's not unreasonable for us to discuss where we stand and what the implications are of T3D pricing without being told we should be happy with scraps, cast-offs and hand-me-downs.
04/20/2009 (1:47 pm)
@Libra - You're kinda side-stepping the point people are raising, albeit unintentionally. T3D is the successor to TGEA, as TGEA was the successor to TGE. It's not really about which is the more appropriate tool for hobbyists, rather about where the Torque "brand" is headed with its target market. If GG is heading out of the hobbyist market then the usefulness of TGE and TGEA is largely irrelevent in the long term, the hobbyist era at GG is coming to a close.I'm not suggesting there's anything fundamentally wrong with them going in this direction, but as hobbyists it's not unreasonable for us to discuss where we stand and what the implications are of T3D pricing without being told we should be happy with scraps, cast-offs and hand-me-downs.
#23
@Ross - They're have been a few comments here and there from GG staff when the subject of TGE is brought up, they're won't be any more development from GG on TGE and from reading comments made they still believe it has value as a product for those getting into game dev and I would guess they're thinking about just where that fits in whether it's openSource'd for non-commercial use like they did with TNL or whether it remains a purchaseable option at an entry level $50 or something - I'm sure they'll be taking a long hard look at it once Torque 3D ships and they get some free time to breath
To share a couple of comments from Brett Seyler:
www.garagegames.com/community/blogs/view/15952/9#comment-104618
or
www.garagegames.com/community/blogs/view/15952/12#comment-104683
Who knows what might happen but I doubt TGE or TGEA will disappear any time soon.
04/20/2009 (3:30 pm)
@Libra - I second Stefans words, I'm a hobby developer and I do it because I find it fun, good to learn and get a kick out of seeing what I can achieve... like all of my hobbys I'll invest in that. We're all different though and GG are never going to please everyone.@Ross - They're have been a few comments here and there from GG staff when the subject of TGE is brought up, they're won't be any more development from GG on TGE and from reading comments made they still believe it has value as a product for those getting into game dev and I would guess they're thinking about just where that fits in whether it's openSource'd for non-commercial use like they did with TNL or whether it remains a purchaseable option at an entry level $50 or something - I'm sure they'll be taking a long hard look at it once Torque 3D ships and they get some free time to breath
To share a couple of comments from Brett Seyler:
www.garagegames.com/community/blogs/view/15952/9#comment-104618
Quote:And speaking of that, not maintianing or updating TGE from here doesn't mean it wouldn't be avaialable for use. Maybe we could just set it up with Github and those that wanted to keep using it or improving it could. If that's a desirable option for enough people, we'll definitely do it.
or
www.garagegames.com/community/blogs/view/15952/12#comment-104683
Quote:It's certainly not our top priority to teach people about game engines, but if you want to learn, won't TGE and TGEA as cheaply (or perhaps freely) available source options be sufficient? Expecting to have cheap source access to the latest / greatest tech for learning about game engines seems like expecting too much.
Who knows what might happen but I doubt TGE or TGEA will disappear any time soon.
#24
This gives the message that GG is abandoning TGE and TGEA, and expects us to use T3D, but isn't offering a useable entry level version of T3D. New customers will not be aware of either TGE or TGEA, and will go elsewhere.
If TGE or TGEA were handed over to the community, where they continued to receive bug fixes and new releases, that would be ideal, but GG would still need to advertise that this is what hobby developers should be using.
In fact, even without handing them over to the community, if GG were to advertise TGE and TGEA on their site as hobbyist products, it would restore my faith that this is what I should be using as a hobby developer. As it is, I have no idea what they want us to do.
04/21/2009 (7:40 am)
As Ross mentioned, this isn't about having the latest and greatest features, it is about where Torque is heading. TGE is no longer advertised on the site, you have to search the forums to find a link for it. Once T3D comes out, I imagine TGEA will be the same. This gives the message that GG is abandoning TGE and TGEA, and expects us to use T3D, but isn't offering a useable entry level version of T3D. New customers will not be aware of either TGE or TGEA, and will go elsewhere.
If TGE or TGEA were handed over to the community, where they continued to receive bug fixes and new releases, that would be ideal, but GG would still need to advertise that this is what hobby developers should be using.
In fact, even without handing them over to the community, if GG were to advertise TGE and TGEA on their site as hobbyist products, it would restore my faith that this is what I should be using as a hobby developer. As it is, I have no idea what they want us to do.
#25
I can understand a lot of their arguments especially as I'm hobbyist but as a company of this size you can't support and maintain a list of products that looks like:
-TGE
-TGEA
-Torque 3D
-TGB
-Torque 360
-iTGE
-iTGB
-Torque for Wii
-TorqueX 2D
-TorqueX 3D
So I can understand them simplifying that line up even though it does mean some products disappearing like most software companies the old products disappear from the front pages of the site and slowly get phased out.
I do hope they keep the hobbyist in mind and personally I'd like to see a solution that has TGE open-sourced for non-commercial products, probably not advertised on this site but maybe a seperate site. TGEA becoming Torque Hobbyist or something like that, still available for purchase but at $150-200 price mark.
As I said before I'm sure once Torque 3D ships it's something they'll be having a look at right now I would imagine a lot of the team are tied up getting that ready for release.
04/21/2009 (10:34 am)
@Matthew - Oh I agree with you there and the recent blogs on Torque 3D have been quite clear that GG are focused on Indie developers rather than Hobbyist. That's not to say they are kicking anyone out the door or that they want to stop supporting hobbyists but their main goal is the indie and established development studios.I can understand a lot of their arguments especially as I'm hobbyist but as a company of this size you can't support and maintain a list of products that looks like:
-TGE
-TGEA
-Torque 3D
-TGB
-Torque 360
-iTGE
-iTGB
-Torque for Wii
-TorqueX 2D
-TorqueX 3D
So I can understand them simplifying that line up even though it does mean some products disappearing like most software companies the old products disappear from the front pages of the site and slowly get phased out.
I do hope they keep the hobbyist in mind and personally I'd like to see a solution that has TGE open-sourced for non-commercial products, probably not advertised on this site but maybe a seperate site. TGEA becoming Torque Hobbyist or something like that, still available for purchase but at $150-200 price mark.
As I said before I'm sure once Torque 3D ships it's something they'll be having a look at right now I would imagine a lot of the team are tied up getting that ready for release.
#26
04/21/2009 (11:35 am)
Does anyone know what GG's roadmap for TorqueX is post T3D? TorqueX/XNA is actually a pretty valid platform for hobbyists, assuming it will be maintained.
#27
04/21/2009 (3:02 pm)
Well as TorqueX 3D isn't released yet I would imagine it's firmly in the line up for products continuing for the future, I don't really follow the TorqueX engine though and comments regarding them
#28
It's also worth noting that if you spend money on any of the other hobbies and lose interest, you still have a tangible object to sell on or give to someone else. You don't have this option with Torque. While this is perfectly acceptable for obvious reasons, it's a noteworthy difference if you're going to compare investment in other hobbies.
It's also interesting that everyone seems to consider the hobbyist alternative to T3D Pro is TGEA or TGE. Given that T3D Basic is being completely disregarded by everyone, surely it's turning out to be a bit of a dud?
And just to clarify, I'm not crying foul or whining that T3D is too expensive. I actually think the T3D Pro price point is perfectly reasonable, I'm just interested in the impact on hobbyists and the entry level for future generations of Torque users.
A significant number of people in the original pricing discussion said they'd never have started using Torque if the entry level had been $1000. At least one of those was a notable entity, someone from Sickhead or Fro Games (I forget exactly who). Someone who in that very blog Brett had named as the kind of developer T3D was aimed at instead of hobbyists.
There's quite a few quotes I could pluck from the first pricing speculation blog, but I'll go with this one...
TGE simply isn't visible to new customers anymore, and I'm not convinced selling TGEA as an entry point will do T3D any justice or favours what-so-ever.
04/21/2009 (4:44 pm)
Just to answer the comments about comparison to other hobbies (Photography, console gaming, PC gaming, etc that have been mentioned). To my mind, they all have entry level alternatives and pricing within the latest product range. Meaning if you wanted to test the water you could buy a cheap camera/console bundle/PC with acceptable features without having to buy the previous generation of technology.It's also worth noting that if you spend money on any of the other hobbies and lose interest, you still have a tangible object to sell on or give to someone else. You don't have this option with Torque. While this is perfectly acceptable for obvious reasons, it's a noteworthy difference if you're going to compare investment in other hobbies.
It's also interesting that everyone seems to consider the hobbyist alternative to T3D Pro is TGEA or TGE. Given that T3D Basic is being completely disregarded by everyone, surely it's turning out to be a bit of a dud?
And just to clarify, I'm not crying foul or whining that T3D is too expensive. I actually think the T3D Pro price point is perfectly reasonable, I'm just interested in the impact on hobbyists and the entry level for future generations of Torque users.
A significant number of people in the original pricing discussion said they'd never have started using Torque if the entry level had been $1000. At least one of those was a notable entity, someone from Sickhead or Fro Games (I forget exactly who). Someone who in that very blog Brett had named as the kind of developer T3D was aimed at instead of hobbyists.
There's quite a few quotes I could pluck from the first pricing speculation blog, but I'll go with this one...
Quote:Brett Seyler - My ideal outcome is that in mid-2009, everyone who wants to continue working with Torque in the future will be using Torque 3D and sharing resources and knowledge with the rest of the community.
TGE simply isn't visible to new customers anymore, and I'm not convinced selling TGEA as an entry point will do T3D any justice or favours what-so-ever.
#29
I'll bite.
Why not use TGE? I choose to use a cell shader for numerous reasons; not least of which is that there is a low bar to not creating something tooooooo fugly. Yeah, there is a cell shader resource for TGE, but it is simpler to use a proper shader.
Why use T3D over TGEA? I bought T3D for two reasons; the networked physics integration and the collada. Frankly speaking, I could spend a year of nights and weekends trying to get the TGEA resource working in a multiplayer environment. A year's worth of nights and weekends is worth $505 to me.
04/21/2009 (8:35 pm)
Quote:So my original question still stands. Why, if you're a hobbyist, are you concerned with the latest and greatest? TGE, maybe even TGEA should suit you just fine. The GG community will continue to work with TGEA and from what I can see, TGE ain't exactly riddled with bugs so the fact that it won't be supported anymore shouldn't present a problem. What's the big deal???
I'll bite.
Why not use TGE? I choose to use a cell shader for numerous reasons; not least of which is that there is a low bar to not creating something tooooooo fugly. Yeah, there is a cell shader resource for TGE, but it is simpler to use a proper shader.
Why use T3D over TGEA? I bought T3D for two reasons; the networked physics integration and the collada. Frankly speaking, I could spend a year of nights and weekends trying to get the TGEA resource working in a multiplayer environment. A year's worth of nights and weekends is worth $505 to me.
Torque Owner Stefan Lundmark
Because, oh.. I don't know. Maybe it's fun? Like a hobby should be. Perhaps you should accept that some people feel this way, and that you feel differently. As you said, it's no big deal.