VirtualWorld System
by Jordan · in Game Design and Creative Issues · 04/14/2009 (8:24 am) · 12 replies
Ive been reading about the use of the different GarageGames Torque Engines for VirtualWorld but never really got a Clear answer to it..
Would it be possible (with modifications to the Engine I would suppose) to create a VirtualWorld system such as..
There.com / SecondLife.com I know these 2 are quite different but the general idea of members downloading the client, login, have a virtul avater and can interact with Objects,other avaters ect...
And also wondered if things like a Currency system would also be able to be implemented (not sure if this is the Engine side of things but in general with GG systems)
I've emailed the similar question directly to GG so I'll away their reply through email but just wonderd if someone else knew how far I could take the engines to create a VirtualWorld enviroment.
Would it be possible (with modifications to the Engine I would suppose) to create a VirtualWorld system such as..
There.com / SecondLife.com I know these 2 are quite different but the general idea of members downloading the client, login, have a virtul avater and can interact with Objects,other avaters ect...
And also wondered if things like a Currency system would also be able to be implemented (not sure if this is the Engine side of things but in general with GG systems)
I've emailed the similar question directly to GG so I'll away their reply through email but just wonderd if someone else knew how far I could take the engines to create a VirtualWorld enviroment.
#2
04/14/2009 (4:14 pm)
I got a reply via email and yea they use Garage Games engine to power vSIDE however a system such as that (which I want) costs in the Millions of dollars unfortunatly. 
#3
(g) This license does not permit the use of the Engine for non-Game application such as simulations, virtual worlds, or other non-Game products. Use of the Engine for these applications requires a separate license. Contact licensing@garagegames.com for these applications of the Engine.
I'm guessing this is what GarageGames stated in their email to you.
Edit: The above EULA is for TGEA. T3D seems to allow non-games with a Studio license - at least according to this.
04/14/2009 (4:40 pm)
You also need a separate license in order to create virtual worlds. Neither indie nor the regular commercial license allows it. This is stated in their EULA.(g) This license does not permit the use of the Engine for non-Game application such as simulations, virtual worlds, or other non-Game products. Use of the Engine for these applications requires a separate license. Contact licensing@garagegames.com for these applications of the Engine.
I'm guessing this is what GarageGames stated in their email to you.
Edit: The above EULA is for TGEA. T3D seems to allow non-games with a Studio license - at least according to this.
#4
i'm one of the developers of vSide, i'd be happy to answer any questions about it.
the vSide game engine was once TGE 1.3.5, and actually it's still largely recognizable as that engine. we tacked on the lighting pack, LibCURL, ArcaneFX, a flash video player, FFmpeg, and a few other packages, as well as doing a bunch of modding to the engine and scripts.
in addition to the game engine, there is of course a database component to keep track of user accounts, authentication, world state, etc. this is major, and isn't provided for by any flavour of Torque technology that i'm aware of.
vSide is the result of several years of development by a highly skilled team of programmers, artists, product designers, etc, so it's definitely a major undertaking. i'm not sure if we really count as an 'indie' studio.
depending on your definition of "Virtual World" tho, you could also consider Minions of Mirth in that category: it's a TGE-based massively multiplayer world, has all that backend database bizness, and tons of content. and was created almost entirely by two people, a feat which i find incredibly impressive. so there's proof that you don't need to be a fairly big team to undertake projects of this scale, but you'll need to be excellent in several areas for that to succeed.
you might also get some insight into the scale of these projects from reading this post by Ted Southard.
04/14/2009 (4:41 pm)
Hey Jordan -i'm one of the developers of vSide, i'd be happy to answer any questions about it.
the vSide game engine was once TGE 1.3.5, and actually it's still largely recognizable as that engine. we tacked on the lighting pack, LibCURL, ArcaneFX, a flash video player, FFmpeg, and a few other packages, as well as doing a bunch of modding to the engine and scripts.
in addition to the game engine, there is of course a database component to keep track of user accounts, authentication, world state, etc. this is major, and isn't provided for by any flavour of Torque technology that i'm aware of.
vSide is the result of several years of development by a highly skilled team of programmers, artists, product designers, etc, so it's definitely a major undertaking. i'm not sure if we really count as an 'indie' studio.
depending on your definition of "Virtual World" tho, you could also consider Minions of Mirth in that category: it's a TGE-based massively multiplayer world, has all that backend database bizness, and tons of content. and was created almost entirely by two people, a feat which i find incredibly impressive. so there's proof that you don't need to be a fairly big team to undertake projects of this scale, but you'll need to be excellent in several areas for that to succeed.
you might also get some insight into the scale of these projects from reading this post by Ted Southard.
#5
Open Simulator + OS Grid is essentially an FOSS version of Second Life and is perfect for creating large scale virtual worlds.
Or, if you do end up getting a virtual worlds license for Torque, check into Zen Worlds. It is a game-client agnostic virtual worlds / MMO middleware that works well with Torque.
Both of these projects are "alpha" but they're significantly better than having to code everything yourself from scratch.
04/14/2009 (9:36 pm)
If you're really interested in a virtual world and less interested in creating a game, you might want to check into a few other non-Torque related products.Open Simulator + OS Grid is essentially an FOSS version of Second Life and is perfect for creating large scale virtual worlds.
Or, if you do end up getting a virtual worlds license for Torque, check into Zen Worlds. It is a game-client agnostic virtual worlds / MMO middleware that works well with Torque.
Both of these projects are "alpha" but they're significantly better than having to code everything yourself from scratch.
#6
However I wanted to be Different from SL and not just be a clone of it because most would just say, Why play yours when we've got SL. Its still good tho.
Just with Torque's power would be great for a virtual world I think.
Unfortunatly I dont have millions to spend so I guess ill continue with OPENSIM unless there are some experts here that wanted to create a Virtual World with me? :)
And which Engine would be best?
Also, Thank you all for your replies so far, they've been great.
04/15/2009 (3:02 am)
Im currently using OPENSIM already :)However I wanted to be Different from SL and not just be a clone of it because most would just say, Why play yours when we've got SL. Its still good tho.
Just with Torque's power would be great for a virtual world I think.
Unfortunatly I dont have millions to spend so I guess ill continue with OPENSIM unless there are some experts here that wanted to create a Virtual World with me? :)
And which Engine would be best?
Also, Thank you all for your replies so far, they've been great.
#7
What is it that makes your virtual world stand out from the rest? What do you have to offer?
If it's impressive enough, I could get you in on the Zen Worlds closed beta testing, which means the software would be free.... but you need to remember that software is only a drop in the bucket. Running a virtual world or MMO company is a service industry, not a software company.
There is significantly more to it than simply providing a link for people to download your client.
04/15/2009 (7:14 am)
Quote:Unfortunatly I dont have millions to spend so I guess ill continue with OPENSIM unless there are some experts here that wanted to create a Virtual World with me? :)
What is it that makes your virtual world stand out from the rest? What do you have to offer?
If it's impressive enough, I could get you in on the Zen Worlds closed beta testing, which means the software would be free.... but you need to remember that software is only a drop in the bucket. Running a virtual world or MMO company is a service industry, not a software company.
There is significantly more to it than simply providing a link for people to download your client.
#8
And yea I understand there is far much more to be added ect before anything is completed or far enough to be public however I would need to start somewhere with the Engine being the main starter.
Jordan
04/15/2009 (7:50 am)
Well the features that I offer would depend on what this ZenWorlds system is capable of however if there is anyway you could get me access to this, I'd appreicate it.And yea I understand there is far much more to be added ect before anything is completed or far enough to be public however I would need to start somewhere with the Engine being the main starter.
Jordan
#9
I wonder what is Garagegames's specific definition of what is a game and what is a virtual world.
04/15/2009 (8:50 am)
Heee didn't think i would see Opensim come up on those boards.I wonder what is Garagegames's specific definition of what is a game and what is a virtual world.
#10
@Jordan - I'm sorry, but it doesn't work that way.
The first few users of Zen Worlds are considered "partners" with IndieZen, LLC. (the company creating the software). IndieZen developers work hand in hand with their users, even writing significant chunks of code for them.
Zen Worlds is capable of handling all of the MMO infrastructure such as authentication services, chat services, community services, trade / auction services, server management services, payment services, customer support services using a robust service oriented architecture.
It contains a full-fledged data grid with automatic data placement, allowing virtually unlimited linear scalability with a core foundation that focuses on high throughput, high availability, fault tolerance, and automatic data replication.
If you were to purchase this software as group of packages from other vendors you could expect to pay tens of millions of dollars, and even then it would only be general purpose software and you would have to custom tailor it for use with a virtual world.
IndieZen is partnering with a few beta testers, providing the software for free in exchange for them creating innovative products, games, virtual worlds and social networking services.... in essence, you use Zen Worlds for free in exchange for IndieZen using your creation as an advertisement of what it's capable of doing.
If you don't have something that is truly innovative and you're just interested in creating yet another MMO, virtual world or social network then it's not really worth the significant development and maintenance cost.
04/15/2009 (10:12 am)
@Kyrah - The official answer:Quote:Entertainment based games are covered under the present EULA. Projects are bound by the EULA of their project's most current version of the engine. So if your working on a MMO "G", who's primary purpose is entertainment, your fine. A WoW, MoM or Sypeout style game is totally cool. If you're making a different kind of MMO "Project." like a Second Life, vSide, or Metaverse you need to get in contact with us about a Virtual World or Modeling Simulation and Training License.
Now there's certainly a bunch more "little questions" in between these kinds of "clarity issues" which can feed the blood pressure, so here is the simple test for if our standard EULA covers your project: "What is the primary purpose of your project? Is it to entertain through employing a set of game objectives, or is there another primary purpose for the application such as training, teaching, testing, visualizing, simulating, socializing, conferencing, demoing technology or services, gambeling ...ect?
Of the projects listed above, Sypeout is the only one we count as a "game" and falls under our standard license. All of the others would need a separate license with us under the present EULA. Note: some of these projects were grandfathered under our old EULA. "Remembering 7th Street" and "Virtual Sambor Prei Kuk, Cambodia," have research licenses through our academic outreach program.
Let me clarify too, that we LOVE special projects, and seeing new applications of Torque outside of game development. Heck if we like it we'll help promote it I did above. If you're project is in a grey area send us a write up of your project directly, and tell us where you think it does/doesn't fall under our standard EULA.
@Jordan - I'm sorry, but it doesn't work that way.
The first few users of Zen Worlds are considered "partners" with IndieZen, LLC. (the company creating the software). IndieZen developers work hand in hand with their users, even writing significant chunks of code for them.
Zen Worlds is capable of handling all of the MMO infrastructure such as authentication services, chat services, community services, trade / auction services, server management services, payment services, customer support services using a robust service oriented architecture.
It contains a full-fledged data grid with automatic data placement, allowing virtually unlimited linear scalability with a core foundation that focuses on high throughput, high availability, fault tolerance, and automatic data replication.
If you were to purchase this software as group of packages from other vendors you could expect to pay tens of millions of dollars, and even then it would only be general purpose software and you would have to custom tailor it for use with a virtual world.
IndieZen is partnering with a few beta testers, providing the software for free in exchange for them creating innovative products, games, virtual worlds and social networking services.... in essence, you use Zen Worlds for free in exchange for IndieZen using your creation as an advertisement of what it's capable of doing.
If you don't have something that is truly innovative and you're just interested in creating yet another MMO, virtual world or social network then it's not really worth the significant development and maintenance cost.
#11
Where can I find out more infomation regarding the project, and any Estimated time for a Stable release or has it been released already?
Also is there anywhere to find out the installation/setup instructions ect to get me started on it
Jordan
04/15/2009 (11:56 am)
Thanks for the info Tony. It does sound very intresting..Where can I find out more infomation regarding the project, and any Estimated time for a Stable release or has it been released already?
Also is there anywhere to find out the installation/setup instructions ect to get me started on it
Jordan
#12
There's still one problem though... Zen Worlds is the MMO / virtual worlds middleware and you'll still need a 3d client.
If you want to use Torque as your client, you still need to get a license for that from Garage Games.
04/15/2009 (1:09 pm)
No more public information is available yet, but check my blog from time to time.There's still one problem though... Zen Worlds is the MMO / virtual worlds middleware and you'll still need a 3d client.
If you want to use Torque as your client, you still need to get a license for that from Garage Games.
Torque 3D Owner Ross Cook