Questions on the different versions of Torque

#1 Welcome to the forums. I like your name ;D

I can't answer all those questions, but I'd like to step in on the 3D Engine/T3D issue. GarageGames' current '3D Engine' is the Torque Game Engine Advanced, which is a spiffed-up and rewritten version of the Tribes 2 engine (which is what TGE is, basically). Torque 3D, on the other hand, is the next incarnation of the Torque engine, which has been majorly overhauled and has a ton of modern features. Have a look at Brett Seyler's blogs to see some features of T3D.

#2 Thanks, for the info. If I understand correctly, you are saying that Torque 3D is just the newest version of the Engine and therefore more advanced. Is that correct?
That also gives me a hard choice to make if I am going to purchase one of these... Which one do you recommend?

Also, if anyone else can answer any of my questions from my first post, that would be great.

#3 Torque Game Engine (TGE) was the 3D game development engine used (and is still used by many today), but has/is being replaced by TGEA (below). Sales of TGE was discontinued as of November 1, 2009.

Torque Game Engine Advanced (TGEA), a.k.a. 3D Engine. Price was $295USD for indie developers. If you purchased TGEA, you can get regular TGE for free under My Products -> TGEA download -> Previous Version. Sales of TGEA was discontinued as of November 1, 2009.

Torque 3D (T3D) was released on September 28, 2009. It is the next advancement for 3D development and will have several improvements in the work flow and graphical improvements. If you own TGEA, you can upgrade to T3D Pro by paying only the difference. The full price of T3D Pro is $1000 per developer. T3D Professional owners can find TGE and TGEA under My Products -> Torque 3D download -> Previous Versions.

With Torque 3D, indie developers can now use Torque 3D to make non-game projects (i.e. - license holders are free to make virtual worlds, such as SecondLife and IMVU). GarageGames lifted this restriction for all of the T3D licenses.

There is now a binary-only version of T3D. It is on sale for the month of December 2009 for $100. The normal price will be $250. For more information, please read this blog.

Still confused about what happened to TGE/TGEA and the difference between Torque 3D and Torque 3D Professional, and how upgrade discounts apply? Try this thread.

Torque 2D (Torque Game Builder or TGB), a.k.a. 2D Engine, is for making 2D games. The difference between the standard and the pro version is that the more expensive pro version comes with the source code to modify the engine. $100USD and $250USD respectively. If you buy the standard version, but later decide you need the pro version, you can upgrade for just the difference in cost ($150USD).

Torque 2D for the iPhone (iTGB) is for making 2D games for the iPhone, and development can be done on a PC*. This product is $500USD for an indie license, but also requires TGB Pro to use (sold separately for $250USD). There is more info about that on this thread.

Torque 3D for the iPhone (iTGE) is for making 3D games for the iPhone. It requires TGE (sold separately) to develop a game*. Like iTGB (the 2D counter part), development is done with one of the Torque Engines, and then supported with iTGB or iTGE for transition to be used on an iPhone. iTGE is currently $500USD for indie developers.

* iTGB/iTGE compilation to an iPhone still requires the iPhone SDK and an Intel based Mac, as far as I know.

Torque X 2D (TX2D) utilizes XNA Game Studio 3.0 to make 2D games for the XBOX 360. Think of it as TGB except with C# instead of TorqueScript.

Torque X 3D (TX3D) uses XNA Game Studio 3.0 to make 3D games for the XBOX 360. It's based on TGEA and written in C#.

Torque Wii is for making Wii games. You must be an approved Nintendo Developer and have a Nintendo Development Kit in order to purchase this.

Torque 360 is also for making XBOX 360 games. You must be an approved Microsoft XBOX 360 Developer and have an XBOX 360 Developer Kit.

I hope this cleared things up for you. Feel free to correct me if I'm wrong on any of this, lol.

edit: 2009-05-04 - updated T3D information.
edit: 2009-06-30 - clarified products and updated T3D information.
edit: 2009-10-13 - updated T3D info, TGEA link, and product names. added info for other Torque products
edit: 2009-10-19 - updated TGE/TGEA and T3D Artist version info.
edit: 2009-12-05 - added T3D binary-only version info.
edit: 2009-12-09 - removed defunct TGE/TGEA links and clarified info.

#4 That made things much clearer. Thanks.

#5 D.L.: Your answers are so good, I'm stickying this thread. ^_^

#6 Is there many difference in coding between. If someone know TGE will he be lost with TGEA,T3D, ITGE?

Thanks

#7 All of these engines were written in C++ and use the same scripting language, TorqueScript, a C-like language.

#8 Hey, thanks for asking that question, Daniel B, and thanks for the answers, esp' DL, just what I was puzzling over myself.

Only discovered GG yesterday, and just signed up an hour ago, so this is my 'cherry' appearance to say 'Hi!'

I've a question related to this, if everyone doesn't mind.

I'm a baby-boomer, with no formal IT and can't code in any form for nuts.
I can use a WYSIWYG system to build a website, but that's about it.

My question:– is the torque engine sufficiently WYSIWYG for someone like me to use it, or does it need such a knowledge of coding that it'd make it unfeasible for me, even as a hobby for a bit of fun? I don't mind learning some coding if I must, but unsure just how much might be required here, so I'd appreciate it if someone could clarify that for me.

Also, I'm not sure about the ability by indie members to market their stuff. Does it need to be upgraded to a commercial level to do that, or is there an indie level market, if only a minor sales figures one? or is the indie strictly for private use/fun, and have to upgrade to commercial if it's marketed? (I'm just looking at the indie TGEA, to have a play with it and see if I can use it, but thinking ahead, if I should come up with anything good (laugh!), some retirement pocketmoney sounds interesting)

Thanks all, Mark.

#9 Hi, Mark. Welcome to GG.

From reading your post, I gather that you're looking at TGEA. Is it possible to use it in a purely WYSIWYG work environment? That depends on what you're trying to do. The short answer for most would probably be no.

There is a built in World Editor and Mission Editor, but to really get the most out of the engine, you really need to learn TorqueScript. Basically (and this is a really simple explanation) if you want the objects inside your game to do anything you will need to script it to some degree, at the very least. TorqueScript, luckily is fairly easy to pick up for non-programmers. At least that's what I hear. It's hard for me to judge this as I've had formal training in computer science.

Where it really gets complicated is when you start playing with the C++ source code. You would only need to do this if you need to modify the way the engine works (i.e. - create something other than a first-person shooter, add a physics module such as PhysX or Havok, or use a different graphics module such as DirectX10 instead of 9) or to optimize some complicated function. This, of course, can be done with TGEA since the source code is included. However, in order to do this, you should have an understanding of how to compile code (using either Visual Studio for Windows, or XCode for Macs - both have fully functional free versions).

In regards to the licenses, the indie licenses just means that you alone own the engine and that you do not generate more than $250,000 in revenue from selling your game. The commercial license is merely a license management contract, as well as lifting certain restrictions. Say for example you have a game development company, and you hire a few programmers and artists to work on your game with you. If for some reason one of your team members has to leave the company, you can then take the license you bought for that person and use it for his/her replacement.

Now if you have an indie license, and you do go over that $250k mark in sales, congrats and not to worry because you can then just purchase the commercial license.

Also, I know this was not mentioned, but TGE/TGEA/T3D does not come with a 3D modeling program. So unless you are satisfied with just playing around with the default/example models that come with the engine, you are going to need to obtain one to make your objects. There are some free or cheap ones out there that have plugins/exporters to allow you to use the models you create for Torque.

I think the recommendation given to most beginners is to start with TGB as their entry point into game development. It is only 2D but gets most beginners to start thinking like a game developer. Of course you do not have to start with TGB if you do not want to. It is just easier and more WYSIWYG. Scripting is involved but you can do more without it compared to one of the 3D engines, in my opinion. This is because TGB has something called Behaviors which are sort of like pre-coded widgets/behaviors that you can just assign to an object.

Take a look at the Documentations if you want to see what is involved with creating a game in the various engines. Some of the information is a little outdated, especially the TDN wiki stuff, but it should give you an idea of what you'll need to learn.

The reality is that making a game is not easy and you'll need to do your homework, but I hope that does not discourage you from trying. Good luck! :)

#10 Hi D.L.

Thanks for all that, I appreciate you taking the time.

Sounds like I'll have to bite the bullet and learn some code. My feet might be in the 19th century, but time I got my head in the 21st :) I don't mind that at all. The idea of trying something like this on my own would be a bit daunting, but the community set-up here, offering so much help and the ability to ask a few silly questions if I get really stuck, makes it sound like it might be a challenge still, but achieveable with a little work.

Hmmm. I think you might be right about the TGB, learn the ropes and don't get 'previous'.

I'll hunt up that XCode, thanks for the tip.

I did note down the Houdini 3D animation package for sale. Would that be too advanced for me for a modelling program, you think?

What would you recommend for use with TGB for modelling, for starters? or for TGE/TGEA/T3D, for that matter?

And any recommendations on books/references for learning TorqueScript and C++ from scratch?

All advice welcomed and gratefully received, from anyone who offers, thanks in advance.

I'll have to get my imac in to the shop to upgrade it anyway, I think, so I can pick the guys' brains in there, I hope, but they're not likely to be real experts on this stuff, so I appreciate the help here, so long as you guys don't mind a few dumb (groan-worthy, maybe :) questions while I'm on the learning curve.

The whole idea sounds interesting; a lot better to keep the old brain from ossifying than cross-words and day-time TV, LOL. If nothing else, it'll be a fun hobby.

Cheers, Mark.

#11 You can get XCode here from Apple. You'll need to sign-up for Apple Developer Connection (there's a free Online Membership). Just note, however, that TGEA requires an Intel-based Mac. Taken from the TGEA product page:

Minimum Requirements:
OSX 10.5.6
Intel-based Macs only
2 GB RAM
ATI or nVidia shader model 2.0+ video cards with 256 MB video RAM required
XCode version 3.1.2 or better

I've never used Houdini, though I've heard it is quite the capable program. I will probably buy it when Houdini 10 is released. You can check it out at Side Effect's official site and even try it for free before you buy Apprentice HD.

As far as being too advanced, well if anything it is probably easier than the really expensive programs such as 3DS Max or Maya. I only say this because Houdini supports the indie community, and more specifically the Torque engine. But, learning 3D modeling is a skill in itself, not to mention making textures and animations.

For making art for TGB, and for creating textures for 3D models, the professional choice is Adobe Photoshop (very expensive but obviously considered by many to be the best). The most popular free alternative is an application called Gimp (The GNU Image Manipulation Program).

The material out there for learning TorqueScript is pretty dated, but for just understanding the basics you can check the TDN resource.

As for printed material, there are a few books (also a little out dated):
- The Game Programmers Guide to Torque
- 3D Game Programming All-In-One, Third Edition
- Advanced 3D Game Programming All-In-One
- Torque for Teens
- Multiplayer Gaming and Engine Coding

These books all use TGE (not TGEA) as the platform for teaching, but the concepts and such are all the same. The Advanced 3D book is obviously the continuation of the first book. The last book, Multiplayer Gaming and Engine Coding, deals more specifically with TGE source code editing. The reason I say these are dated is because the engine has changed a little, and not all the examples in the books would work as is, especially for TGEA. However, they are still good books to guide beginners in understanding game development with Torque in general.

Another book that uses Torque for teaching is Creating Game Art for 3D Engines by Brad Strong. However, it uses 3DS Max as the modeling application. Even so, the concepts can be applied to some degree to other applications with enough know-how.

If you decide to go the TGB route, the included documentations and tutorials will give you a pretty good head start (unfortunately also somewhat outdated, lol).

There is also a book, 2D Game Building for Teens, that uses TGB. I have not personally read this book, but you might want to check it out if you are starting with TGB.

For learning C++, just pick up a good beginner C++ book or look through the web for some tutorials. You really won't need to learn this, however, unless you plan on touching the source code... which you should have a really good idea of how game engines work before you mess with it, anyway.

Like I said before, game development isn't easy and will most certainly be filled with moments of frustration, but it is definitely fun. And please don't hesitate to ask questions on here. You're not alone on this adventure. In fact, one particular person comes to mind, Infinitum3D, who has had a similar situation as yours. He uses TGE as a hobby and has been gracious enough to document his adventure with this community as he went from knowing almost nothing to now having a really good grasp of the TGE engine.

edit: Just as a note for above, you don't need an Intel mac for regular TGE.
edit2: Added a TGB specific book to the list.

#12 Hi again D.L.

Wow, so much help! Such a really pleasant change from many other sites I've seen with all too many creeps and juvenile asses in the forums. Makes me feel very welcome to know that folks here are so helpful.

Thanks for going to so much time to help out a newbie. Lot's of info there to get me started.

I'll try not to be a pest with lots of silly questions, but it's great to know that if I have the odd one here and there I can get such sensible help. What a great community set-up :) I just hope that I might be able to pass it on one day, when I know something to pass on, LOL.

Okay, off to the shop. Intel is covered already, just gotta get a few other bits and bobs. Then I can get into the books and back to 'school' :)

Cheers again, very much appreciated, Macka.

PS. Sorry for what must seem a time delay response. We're 8 or 9 time zones away Down Under, but anyone who leaves me a note anywhere, I will get back to you eventually, usu. when I wake up :)

#13 Under My Products, I have downloads for "Torque Game Builder". I can also upgrade to TX2D. What's the difference between the two? Does TorqueX no longer come with TGB?

#14 Strong kudos to D.L. for answering so many questions so thoroughly!

TorqueX is built on top of XNA. The editor for TX2D was built on top of the Torque 2D (formerly TGB) editor, however. TorqueX Builder used to be paired with TGB because of this. TorqueX 2D includes the engine source, builder, and the binaries now which is why it is an upgrade. People were getting confused with so many different versions.

Torque 2D is a C++ engine built on top of the base Torque engine.

#15 what extra features 3D Engine has?

#16 www.garagegames.com/community/blogs/view/17293

Olivia, you can follow the development of Torque3D at the above link, which is Brett Seyler's blog series.

#17 Hello all,

This seems to be a good place for first posts.

I am in the Game & Simulation Programming program at DeVry, and we are going to use the Torque Game Builder for my upcoming class. We were also told to get Torsion. What is Torsion and how is it used with TGB?

Also, just curious what people in the indusrty think about the DeVry GSP program? I am in my second year, and just finished my first C++ classes last semister. I am anxious to get to some real application classes.

#18 MajBoomer: Torsion is a script editor that you can use to easily modify any TorqueScript files you write on our engines. You could use something as basic as Notepad to modify script files, but Torsion makes it much easier to read code, set break points, and overall just manipulate and improve your scripts. You can try a Torsion demo if you're interested.

#19 Thanks Deborah!

I am about to have to use it for class, so I guess I will be using it soon enough. It is being offered as a combined package with TGB through the school.

#20 Cool question. I was about to ask the same thing so finding this thread is a blessing. Now i have the answers to my questions. Thanks for the replies.



Regards,
Melody
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