Welcome to the Torque 3D Collada Test
by Matt Fairfax · in Collada Test · 02/16/2009 (5:09 pm) · 29 replies
Hello GarageGames Community!
I just wanted to welcome everyone to the Torque Collada Test. We are really excited to get a chance to show off and test out an upcoming feature of Torque 3D with a live demo that will allow you to give us direct feedback.
As you prepare to check out the Torque Collada Test here are some important things you should know =)
First, please read the documents included in the root directory (where Collada Test.exe is). You should see Collada Overview.html and TSShapeConstructor Specification.html. Chris Robertson has put together some very nice docs to help you get started with Collada in Torque and they are well worth the read.
Second, the Torque Collada Test is set to expire in less than a month (March 13th at 5:00 PM PST) so jump in as soon as possible and start testing!
Third, the Collada loader for Torque introduces a few changes to the art pipeline that you should be aware of:
1) Collada files will attempt to match the name of the material you export from your modeling app to the name of a Torque Material before it tries to map it to the diffuse texture name (as Torque has previously done). This is very powerful in that it allows you to share a single diffuse texture among multiple parts of your mesh and still be able to have different effects on those parts (like transparency on the spacesuit visor and specular on the metal bits). You will no longer have to split those different effects out into different textures but this is a change from how DTS has worked in the past (it stored only the diffuse texture name). Moving forward we will be changing what DTS can store (for example, have it store the material name and the diffuse texture name separately).
2) When you load a Collada file, Torque will automatically generate a "cached" DTS version of that file. The next time that Torque loads that Collada file, if the Collada file hasn't changed, then it will load the cached DTS instead. This is very similar to how DSO and CS operate. We did this for two reasons: DTS loads a lot faster than Collada since it is an optimized binary format versus Collada's human readable text format. Also we wanted to give you guys a way to ship your game without the highly editable Collada files. When you go to release your game, you can just remove the Collada files and leave the cached DTS's and everything will work and you won't have to worry about someone editing your artwork.
3) We have started to add new features to the DTS format (like a second set of UV's, color information, and larger than 10K vertex limits). Most of these aren't yet exposed in the first version of the Collada Test (we wanted to focus on the loading side of things first and the rendering/features later). However, this does mean that if you model contains any of this kind of data, then it will get saved out in the new DTS format and you won't be able to load them in Torque ShowTool Pro. The Collada loading code will attempt to save your models out in a ShowTool Pro format if it doesn't have any of this extra information but it can't guarantee it.
4) Since the Collada format can store more information about the materials used on it in your modeling app and more than can be stored in the DTS files currently, the Torque Collada loader will attempt to manage Torque Materials for you in your materials.cs files. After you load a Collada file you should see new Materials get added between //--- <name> MATERIALS BEGIN --- and //--- <name> MATERIALS END ---. Just like with the GUI Editor and Mission Editor saves, anything between these comment tags will get stomped by the automatic save system of the Collada loader code. Anything outside of these comment tags should be safe. If you want to make a change to the default Material that gets generated by the Collada loader, simply move that Material out of those tags and the Collada loader won't overwrite it anymore. It also won't keep it in sync with any changes you make to the materials in the Collada file so you will need to handle that yourself.
Another thing I would like to highlight is the changes introduced to TSShapeConstructor. For those of you not familiar with TSShapeConstructor, it is used to merge separate animation files (DSQ's) into a Torque shape file when you load it. This is very useful for allowing you to share animations among multiple characters. Chris has extended this system to allow for a lot wider range of animation definitions (pull from other DTS's instead of just DSQ's for example). He has also made it so that it can execute script commands automatically when you load the TSShapeConstructor and has hugely extended the kind of things that you can do to a mesh from script (add, delete, rename bones/nodes, add, delete, rename meshes, add primitives, etc). This means that you never have to wait for your artist teammate on the other side of the country (or world!) to get a minor change made to the mesh. It also means that the coder can spend the time fine tuning the shape until he is satisfied that it matches the requirements of the code and then tell the artist exactly the changes that need to be made instead of having an endless cycle of tweaks and refinements. There is actually some pretty powerful things you can do with this system so I highly encourage everyone to check it out and to offer more suggestions. Be sure to check out the 93 line TestModel script file that creates a fully working player character with animations completely from script!
So how can you personally help with the Torque Collada Test?
Start exporting models into Collada and loading them up in Torque. We want to test as wide a range of Collada exporters as possible and to fix as many of the issues that arise from those exporters as possible! We want to know if there is a crash. We want to know if the model came in incorrectly. We want to know if something didn't work like you expected it to. Please try out everything from custom rigs to Torque rigs to no hierarchies at all. The Torque Collada pipeline should be smooth and easy to use and we want to know if it isn't!
Please post bug reports and example meshes here in the Collada Test forum. If you can, please format them with the title "Torque Collada Test - Bug - <YOUR PROBLEM>" so that they are easier to track.
Thank you for all of your help! Together we can make Torque's art pipeline everything we've always wanted!
I just wanted to welcome everyone to the Torque Collada Test. We are really excited to get a chance to show off and test out an upcoming feature of Torque 3D with a live demo that will allow you to give us direct feedback.
As you prepare to check out the Torque Collada Test here are some important things you should know =)
First, please read the documents included in the root directory (where Collada Test.exe is). You should see Collada Overview.html and TSShapeConstructor Specification.html. Chris Robertson has put together some very nice docs to help you get started with Collada in Torque and they are well worth the read.
Second, the Torque Collada Test is set to expire in less than a month (March 13th at 5:00 PM PST) so jump in as soon as possible and start testing!
Third, the Collada loader for Torque introduces a few changes to the art pipeline that you should be aware of:
1) Collada files will attempt to match the name of the material you export from your modeling app to the name of a Torque Material before it tries to map it to the diffuse texture name (as Torque has previously done). This is very powerful in that it allows you to share a single diffuse texture among multiple parts of your mesh and still be able to have different effects on those parts (like transparency on the spacesuit visor and specular on the metal bits). You will no longer have to split those different effects out into different textures but this is a change from how DTS has worked in the past (it stored only the diffuse texture name). Moving forward we will be changing what DTS can store (for example, have it store the material name and the diffuse texture name separately).
2) When you load a Collada file, Torque will automatically generate a "cached" DTS version of that file. The next time that Torque loads that Collada file, if the Collada file hasn't changed, then it will load the cached DTS instead. This is very similar to how DSO and CS operate. We did this for two reasons: DTS loads a lot faster than Collada since it is an optimized binary format versus Collada's human readable text format. Also we wanted to give you guys a way to ship your game without the highly editable Collada files. When you go to release your game, you can just remove the Collada files and leave the cached DTS's and everything will work and you won't have to worry about someone editing your artwork.
3) We have started to add new features to the DTS format (like a second set of UV's, color information, and larger than 10K vertex limits). Most of these aren't yet exposed in the first version of the Collada Test (we wanted to focus on the loading side of things first and the rendering/features later). However, this does mean that if you model contains any of this kind of data, then it will get saved out in the new DTS format and you won't be able to load them in Torque ShowTool Pro. The Collada loading code will attempt to save your models out in a ShowTool Pro format if it doesn't have any of this extra information but it can't guarantee it.
4) Since the Collada format can store more information about the materials used on it in your modeling app and more than can be stored in the DTS files currently, the Torque Collada loader will attempt to manage Torque Materials for you in your materials.cs files. After you load a Collada file you should see new Materials get added between //--- <name> MATERIALS BEGIN --- and //--- <name> MATERIALS END ---. Just like with the GUI Editor and Mission Editor saves, anything between these comment tags will get stomped by the automatic save system of the Collada loader code. Anything outside of these comment tags should be safe. If you want to make a change to the default Material that gets generated by the Collada loader, simply move that Material out of those tags and the Collada loader won't overwrite it anymore. It also won't keep it in sync with any changes you make to the materials in the Collada file so you will need to handle that yourself.
Another thing I would like to highlight is the changes introduced to TSShapeConstructor. For those of you not familiar with TSShapeConstructor, it is used to merge separate animation files (DSQ's) into a Torque shape file when you load it. This is very useful for allowing you to share animations among multiple characters. Chris has extended this system to allow for a lot wider range of animation definitions (pull from other DTS's instead of just DSQ's for example). He has also made it so that it can execute script commands automatically when you load the TSShapeConstructor and has hugely extended the kind of things that you can do to a mesh from script (add, delete, rename bones/nodes, add, delete, rename meshes, add primitives, etc). This means that you never have to wait for your artist teammate on the other side of the country (or world!) to get a minor change made to the mesh. It also means that the coder can spend the time fine tuning the shape until he is satisfied that it matches the requirements of the code and then tell the artist exactly the changes that need to be made instead of having an endless cycle of tweaks and refinements. There is actually some pretty powerful things you can do with this system so I highly encourage everyone to check it out and to offer more suggestions. Be sure to check out the 93 line TestModel script file that creates a fully working player character with animations completely from script!
So how can you personally help with the Torque Collada Test?
Start exporting models into Collada and loading them up in Torque. We want to test as wide a range of Collada exporters as possible and to fix as many of the issues that arise from those exporters as possible! We want to know if there is a crash. We want to know if the model came in incorrectly. We want to know if something didn't work like you expected it to. Please try out everything from custom rigs to Torque rigs to no hierarchies at all. The Torque Collada pipeline should be smooth and easy to use and we want to know if it isn't!
Please post bug reports and example meshes here in the Collada Test forum. If you can, please format them with the title "Torque Collada Test - Bug - <YOUR PROBLEM>" so that they are easier to track.
Thank you for all of your help! Together we can make Torque's art pipeline everything we've always wanted!
About the author
I am a Game Designer at PopCap who has worked on PvZ Adventures, PvZ2, Peggle Blast, and Bejeweled Skies. I am an ex-GarageGames employee who helped ship TGE, TGEA, Torque 3D, and Constructor.
#22
This Collada Test was from when the collada support for T3D was first being developed and was used to gather feedback from users. It wasn't meant to be used for anything beyond that and the features in the engine today is what resulted from it.
We currently have no plans for updating Constructor.
01/24/2012 (12:53 pm)
@TheMartianThis Collada Test was from when the collada support for T3D was first being developed and was used to gather feedback from users. It wasn't meant to be used for anything beyond that and the features in the engine today is what resulted from it.
We currently have no plans for updating Constructor.
#23
"We currently have no plans for updating Constructor."
Makes me go hmmm.
So for your flagship product, torque3d you recommend people use collada as the file format, especially if you want interiors to actually work.
Would it seem reasonable that modestly funded projects might want to use your tool, Constructor, to build the objects? And if it doesn't support collada, then its not really as useful as it could be?
Creating it in contructor and having to load it in a level then export it from the editor into collada is a whole lot of steps.
Very few developers can afford 3dstudio max. Wouldnt it make sense to keep your own tools up to date so they could be used with your updated engine?
This is a particular sore point with me as for many many years I attempted to get some big studios/publishers to use torque for their projects and everytime we lost out to unreal. They would come in with there flashy demos and all-in-one integrated and complete toolset and just rock the show. Everything was awesome, the particle editor, script editor, etc, etc. I was a huge advocate for GG and Torque, but nowadays I'm kind of wondering what happened to your direction it seems you knew what you were and where you were going and then not so much.....(dont take that the wrong way, it might be more perception then reality)
Tools can help you sell more licenses as I have watched it happen over and over. I finally gave up trying to convince the big boys to use torque and just use it for small indie type stuff.
So when I see a tool, which obviously had a lot of work go into it, put down by the side of the road, its a sad sight to see.
03/16/2012 (11:17 am)
so not to beat a dead horse but this comment"We currently have no plans for updating Constructor."
Makes me go hmmm.
So for your flagship product, torque3d you recommend people use collada as the file format, especially if you want interiors to actually work.
Would it seem reasonable that modestly funded projects might want to use your tool, Constructor, to build the objects? And if it doesn't support collada, then its not really as useful as it could be?
Creating it in contructor and having to load it in a level then export it from the editor into collada is a whole lot of steps.
Very few developers can afford 3dstudio max. Wouldnt it make sense to keep your own tools up to date so they could be used with your updated engine?
This is a particular sore point with me as for many many years I attempted to get some big studios/publishers to use torque for their projects and everytime we lost out to unreal. They would come in with there flashy demos and all-in-one integrated and complete toolset and just rock the show. Everything was awesome, the particle editor, script editor, etc, etc. I was a huge advocate for GG and Torque, but nowadays I'm kind of wondering what happened to your direction it seems you knew what you were and where you were going and then not so much.....(dont take that the wrong way, it might be more perception then reality)
Tools can help you sell more licenses as I have watched it happen over and over. I finally gave up trying to convince the big boys to use torque and just use it for small indie type stuff.
So when I see a tool, which obviously had a lot of work go into it, put down by the side of the road, its a sad sight to see.
#24
03/16/2012 (11:31 am)
I would hazard to say that given the poor performance of the DIF format noticed in TGEa which continued to worsen in T3D, as well as the reasonable assumption that DIFs and the associated Interior class are end-of-life, I really see no need or point in GarageGames expending Resources in an obsolete tool such as Constructor. Sure, Constructor was great for TGE, but time goes on and toolboxes must change to suit the needs of newer tech. There are many low cost alternatives to the big name applications that work reasonably well with the Collada format.
#25
03/17/2012 (7:49 am)
I'm pretty sure I've explained this another thread, but I'll revisit it here as well. Michael is spot on. It doesn't make sense for us to spend resources on a tool that was end of life years ago whose primary purpose was to support a format that is now end of life as well. The whole point behind collada support was to unshackle users from an obsolete, and confusing, format giving them the freedom to use any tool that could export to collada to create assets. Constructor was great back in the day, but the need it filled was all but gone by the time 1.06 was released.
#26
If there is no need to update the old tool, is there a need to come up with a new one? or are you secure in suggesting a third party alternative that works well with torque? Does GG officially recommend any particular tool?
I've tried a bunch and have to say many of the cheap or free tools for collada an artist wouldnt touch, so open to suggestions as a solid replacement. Thanks!
03/18/2012 (8:44 am)
Ok thats understandable. Although keeping your own tools up to date along with your engines is still a valid point. great that its obsolete so you dropped it. It was not replaced with anything. You say there are big name applications that work with collada, true, big price tags too. Whats the best, most commonly usable tool that are inexpensive for us to use? I would say for most 3d max and such is out. On professional projects we have huge funding so yeah maya, max, etc are used. But what about indie or smaller funded projects?If there is no need to update the old tool, is there a need to come up with a new one? or are you secure in suggesting a third party alternative that works well with torque? Does GG officially recommend any particular tool?
I've tried a bunch and have to say many of the cheap or free tools for collada an artist wouldnt touch, so open to suggestions as a solid replacement. Thanks!
#28
03/19/2012 (10:17 pm)
I would second the recommendation for Blender as a low-cost (free) alternative for collada use in Torque 3D. Yes it has it quirks, and learning curve, but a skilled and knowledgeable artist can do wonders with it. 
Torque Owner TheMartian
Conundrum Studios
Any chance that a collada exporter could be put in constructor? Would make it a lot more useful for torque3d users since interiors (difs) are still broken and the process of loading it up and using the world editor exporter is slow and painful.
thanks!