Status of TDN
by Michael Perry · in Torque Developer Network · 01/28/2009 (2:31 pm) · 94 replies
For anyone who has tried accessing TDN over the past month, you may have run into login issues. We are quite aware of the problem, however solving the issue is proving more difficult than we anticipated.
* MediaWiki: 1.5.5
* PHP: 5.1.6 (apache2handler
* MySQL: 5.0.45-log
Compare that to the latest version of MediaWiki:
MediaWiki 1.15alpha (r46424)
PHP 5.2.4-2ubuntu5wm1 (apache2handler)
MySQL 4.0.40-wikimedia-log
TDN is outdated by 10 versions! This is a cause of concern because we are working with outdated functionality and outdated security measures. Late in 2008 TDN was compromised, which is why it was brought down temporarily. While the content was updated, the framework was neglected to the point where updating TDN to the latest version of MediaWiki is a major hurdle.
If you have access to TDN, but cannot get into the starter kit pages (Adventure Kit, Platformer Kit, and RTS Kit), we will be downloading and converting the pages to work within our Doc System framework. A new download link will be added to your account page to download the docs.
The big problem is with users who cannot log into TDN. This is because TDN is unable to create new accounts in the database. If you are given a link that goes to TDN, you can contact me or post in this thread. I will manually grab the doc and send it to you.
I am definitely going to work out a solution to start grabbing the best of the TDN docs and rolling them into our official sources. That's a hefty task, but when complete this may result in not needing TDN anymore. Again, we are still working out a plan of action.
I appreciate the patience everyone has shown. I'll try to do my best to help get this content into your hands.
Tech Information
TDN was created quite a while ago:* MediaWiki: 1.5.5
* PHP: 5.1.6 (apache2handler
* MySQL: 5.0.45-log
Compare that to the latest version of MediaWiki:
MediaWiki 1.15alpha (r46424)
PHP 5.2.4-2ubuntu5wm1 (apache2handler)
MySQL 4.0.40-wikimedia-log
TDN is outdated by 10 versions! This is a cause of concern because we are working with outdated functionality and outdated security measures. Late in 2008 TDN was compromised, which is why it was brought down temporarily. While the content was updated, the framework was neglected to the point where updating TDN to the latest version of MediaWiki is a major hurdle.
Short Term Solutions
For those of you who have access to all of TDN without any login problems, you are good to go.If you have access to TDN, but cannot get into the starter kit pages (Adventure Kit, Platformer Kit, and RTS Kit), we will be downloading and converting the pages to work within our Doc System framework. A new download link will be added to your account page to download the docs.
The big problem is with users who cannot log into TDN. This is because TDN is unable to create new accounts in the database. If you are given a link that goes to TDN, you can contact me or post in this thread. I will manually grab the doc and send it to you.
Long Term Plans
I am going to be dedicating more and more of my time to creating new content for our official docs. Spending time maintaining TDN tech and trying to fix old content will be a detriment to the official docs. We are weighing our options right now.I am definitely going to work out a solution to start grabbing the best of the TDN docs and rolling them into our official sources. That's a hefty task, but when complete this may result in not needing TDN anymore. Again, we are still working out a plan of action.
Using This Thread
This will be the place to post your need for specific tutorials. Also, whenever I have news about the status of TDN I will post it here. I'm locking down the other threads so we can start pushing more readers to this location. Feel free to send this link to anyone else who is experiencing TDN difficulties.I appreciate the patience everyone has shown. I'll try to do my best to help get this content into your hands.
About the author
Programmer.
#62
TDN is an idea I like but it's obviously not working too well.
I don't ever look there anymore, I look at the forums, because there are 404's, outdated info, information without info about what engine it applies to, links to examples and files that no longer exist, pages with links that are wrong, broken and more and that a normal user can't fix (I pointed this out before but no one fixed it anyway, so I kind of feel like "what's the point?")
Yep, I'm not going to bother with the TDN anymore. Sorry Michael, you do good work but it seems you don't have the time to take care of the TDN.
05/23/2009 (11:04 pm)
I hope that GG learns from the previous mistake with docs and releases proper docs, examples, reference files, etc. (And keeps things updated!) for the next release they make.TDN is an idea I like but it's obviously not working too well.
I don't ever look there anymore, I look at the forums, because there are 404's, outdated info, information without info about what engine it applies to, links to examples and files that no longer exist, pages with links that are wrong, broken and more and that a normal user can't fix (I pointed this out before but no one fixed it anyway, so I kind of feel like "what's the point?")
Yep, I'm not going to bother with the TDN anymore. Sorry Michael, you do good work but it seems you don't have the time to take care of the TDN.
#63
Yep, there are unfinished tutorials, as the forums have unanswered questions, and in the resources are non-working pieces of code, not to mention that the Resources section does not currently even have an order of any kind.
Instead, please, go teake a look to the Documentation section, and see for yourselves that more than half the links in there point to TDN, to articles that are not only of an excellent value, but also happens that those are not anywhere else.
05/24/2009 (10:42 am)
The apocaliptic view over TDN, as in "totally destroyed", or "totally unuseful" is far from real, actually.Yep, there are unfinished tutorials, as the forums have unanswered questions, and in the resources are non-working pieces of code, not to mention that the Resources section does not currently even have an order of any kind.
Instead, please, go teake a look to the Documentation section, and see for yourselves that more than half the links in there point to TDN, to articles that are not only of an excellent value, but also happens that those are not anywhere else.
#64
There's a bunch of stuff pointing to the TDN, some really good, some points to 404's, some stuff is outdated, some links offsite to "good indepth tutorials" that ends in 404's and so on.
There's also simple things such as weird links and outdated files in the 1.5.2 TGE download, information lacking etc.
Like I said before, I've *pointed out* and *linked to* a whole range of links and info on various pages that needs fixing (That are connected to the TDN) that I can't fix, but the people who can just seemed to ignore it.
05/24/2009 (10:47 am)
I've spent hours looking at the doc site.There's a bunch of stuff pointing to the TDN, some really good, some points to 404's, some stuff is outdated, some links offsite to "good indepth tutorials" that ends in 404's and so on.
There's also simple things such as weird links and outdated files in the 1.5.2 TGE download, information lacking etc.
Like I said before, I've *pointed out* and *linked to* a whole range of links and info on various pages that needs fixing (That are connected to the TDN) that I can't fix, but the people who can just seemed to ignore it.
#65
When you say "I don't ever look there anymore [...] I'm not going to bother with the TDN anymore." I think you are putting some heavy theatricality into it.
Consider -for example- that if you dont use TDN anymore, you'll not be able to ever again consult any TorqueScript Documentation, among many other cases of useful and irreplaceable info.
Dont take me wrong, I agree with you, its kind of messy, I just want to denote that we should not be that apocaliptical when talking about this tool, that, hacked, abandoned, and messy as it is now, is still useful.
05/24/2009 (11:02 am)
Thats true, its called "shit happens"... some broken links are not a catastrophe.When you say "I don't ever look there anymore [...] I'm not going to bother with the TDN anymore." I think you are putting some heavy theatricality into it.
Consider -for example- that if you dont use TDN anymore, you'll not be able to ever again consult any TorqueScript Documentation, among many other cases of useful and irreplaceable info.
Dont take me wrong, I agree with you, its kind of messy, I just want to denote that we should not be that apocaliptical when talking about this tool, that, hacked, abandoned, and messy as it is now, is still useful.
#66
I and others have pointed out *simple* things to fix in various places (Among things connected to the TDN that a normal user can't edit) but that hasn't been looked at in months.
TDN is more then messy, it's a good idea in theory but it didn't really work out well enough. I just hope GG learnt that and focus on proper documentation for the new releases.
I never meant to be theatrical, but it's not just shit happens at this point.
Will I use TDN? Yep I guess I will. Will I trust it to contain updated information that I don't have to doublecheck and crossreference before using? No.
05/24/2009 (11:06 am)
Normally I would agree with you, but I've sort of had it with the TDN.I and others have pointed out *simple* things to fix in various places (Among things connected to the TDN that a normal user can't edit) but that hasn't been looked at in months.
TDN is more then messy, it's a good idea in theory but it didn't really work out well enough. I just hope GG learnt that and focus on proper documentation for the new releases.
I never meant to be theatrical, but it's not just shit happens at this point.
Will I use TDN? Yep I guess I will. Will I trust it to contain updated information that I don't have to doublecheck and crossreference before using? No.
#67
I think the problem is looking at TDN as a documentation bible, when in fact its a collaborative tool, something that complements the official docs, with community contributions, and as such, is hold to inconsistenses (and worst).
It all could be fixed with a moderator, actually.
Its just a matter of time, probably. GG needed some time to fill positions on critical areas, David Blake and Mich Perry are good examples. If TDN survives (although at this point, as you guys, Im pesimistic about it), will only do with someone on charge of it.
05/24/2009 (11:17 am)
Well, you are right on that, of course.I think the problem is looking at TDN as a documentation bible, when in fact its a collaborative tool, something that complements the official docs, with community contributions, and as such, is hold to inconsistenses (and worst).
It all could be fixed with a moderator, actually.
Its just a matter of time, probably. GG needed some time to fill positions on critical areas, David Blake and Mich Perry are good examples. If TDN survives (although at this point, as you guys, Im pesimistic about it), will only do with someone on charge of it.
#68
05/24/2009 (11:18 am)
The official documentation is much better than the general documentation. That is the direction that we are working (and that Mich has been working towards for some time).
#69
I mean, Official Documentation, is a requirement, and is something everyone expects from an SDK.
A community wiki, would never cover that, it is something else.
05/24/2009 (11:23 am)
Well David, thats the weird focus Im talking about, why everyone keep comparing?I mean, Official Documentation, is a requirement, and is something everyone expects from an SDK.
A community wiki, would never cover that, it is something else.
#70
05/24/2009 (4:44 pm)
I understand where you're coming from. I was replying mostly to the post about documentation and broken links. The official documentation doesn't link out to TDN as much as the base Doco page, and most of the "broken link" comments come from changes on TDN or off-site areas that we have no control over, sadly.
#71
05/24/2009 (5:40 pm)
Ahp! sorry then :)
#72
The broken links and whatnot are from links in official docs, as well as the TDN, I have pointed out earlier a whole range of 404's, removed pages and broken links that a normal user can't fix, but none of those who *can* seems to care. It's been months and still not fixed.
Of course GG can't control outside pages, but you *can* change/remove broken links, outdated links etc.
05/31/2009 (1:48 pm)
David,The broken links and whatnot are from links in official docs, as well as the TDN, I have pointed out earlier a whole range of 404's, removed pages and broken links that a normal user can't fix, but none of those who *can* seems to care. It's been months and still not fixed.
Of course GG can't control outside pages, but you *can* change/remove broken links, outdated links etc.
#74
Here are the changes... looks like it's only me in action.
tdn.garagegames.com/wiki/Special:Recentchanges
tdn.garagegames.com/wiki/TGB/Reference
tdn.garagegames.com/wiki/TGB/Tutorials/Pacman
tdn.garagegames.com/wiki/TGB/Tutorials/Match_3
Is TDN truly a white elephant? I actually find myself using it a lot. Don't others?
08/12/2010 (1:41 pm)
Just found this thread... I am surprised that TDN was dead or supposed to be dead... I just spent quite some time updating the TGB Reference. Dumped in a genre and basic tutorial as well. Hope it was not all for naught.Here are the changes... looks like it's only me in action.
tdn.garagegames.com/wiki/Special:Recentchanges
tdn.garagegames.com/wiki/TGB/Reference
tdn.garagegames.com/wiki/TGB/Tutorials/Pacman
tdn.garagegames.com/wiki/TGB/Tutorials/Match_3
Is TDN truly a white elephant? I actually find myself using it a lot. Don't others?
#75
I tried multiple times to try to revitalize TDN a year or two back. I was shut down each time when requesting additional resources to make it happen. Eric, on the other hand, has been helping me come up with a plan and even providing resources if we can make it happen.
I had to get past the big T3D documentation push to really address it. Now that I have my head above water again, the real discussions are going to begin.
08/12/2010 (4:50 pm)
@Gavin - We are actually having a discussion in the Associate's forum about the plans for TDN. To answer your question, it's on life support but not quite dead.I tried multiple times to try to revitalize TDN a year or two back. I was shut down each time when requesting additional resources to make it happen. Eric, on the other hand, has been helping me come up with a plan and even providing resources if we can make it happen.
I had to get past the big T3D documentation push to really address it. Now that I have my head above water again, the real discussions are going to begin.
#76
08/13/2010 (3:30 pm)
@Michael - Great! I will continue to update the reference pages, add more tutorials, do a bit more housekeeping, and murder the typos I find.
#77
The export process still works on TDN, written using a python script to grab the pages' XML representation and then reimported. I did some cleanup of articles but I haven't done anything with it for a long time.
The current TDN version is quite dangerous. But it's so far behind that upgrading versions slowly will probably be difficult, especially with custom authentication and some other extensions. Doing a clean install and modifying from there while keeping the same article namespaces would make sure that incoming links are the same.
08/18/2010 (3:46 pm)
For anyone still interested in the experimental modifications to the theme I made on my local copy of TDN, here's an image:The export process still works on TDN, written using a python script to grab the pages' XML representation and then reimported. I did some cleanup of articles but I haven't done anything with it for a long time.
The current TDN version is quite dangerous. But it's so far behind that upgrading versions slowly will probably be difficult, especially with custom authentication and some other extensions. Doing a clean install and modifying from there while keeping the same article namespaces would make sure that incoming links are the same.
#78
What we know so far:
08/19/2010 (6:57 pm)
@All - Discussions in the Associate forum are going well. We are making progress and polling for answers to the tough questions. I'll leak some of the discussion as we go, only when we have solidified information. Here is the result of the first round of discussions:What we know so far:
- The new TDN will still be community driven. Torque employees and first tier contractors are still welcome to contribute, but it will not be on us to drive the actual content.
- On our side, we will be responsible for maintenance, security, updating and other logistics.
- MediaWiki is the front runner for the base technology. I’m still open to other formats, but there is currently more knowledge and MediaWiki experience to get this started
- Engines will still get their own section
- Engine sections will include TGE, TGEA, TGB, Torque 3D, Torque X and iTorque (did I leave anything out?)
- At least one person will be in charge of each section. They will be the moderator and maintainer of the content
- There will be tiered incentives. Moderators will get the most rewards, but there will be rewards for top contributors
- The best content from the old TDN will be ported over to the new one. The unfinished articles will initially be on the cut list, but that will be judged on a per article basis
- Outdated and incomplete articles will be archived, but available in a way that does not interfere with the new content
- Actual work will start at the end of this month
#79
Keep up the great work.
08/25/2010 (12:43 pm)
This is outstanding news. I've often visited TDN over the years but wasn't terribly impressed. I'll definitely be visiting the new TDN.Keep up the great work.
#80
08/25/2010 (10:29 pm)
Sounds promising. Thanks for the update. 
Torque 3D Owner Frogger