Status of TDN
by Michael Perry · in Torque Developer Network · 01/28/2009 (2:31 pm) · 94 replies
For anyone who has tried accessing TDN over the past month, you may have run into login issues. We are quite aware of the problem, however solving the issue is proving more difficult than we anticipated.
* MediaWiki: 1.5.5
* PHP: 5.1.6 (apache2handler
* MySQL: 5.0.45-log
Compare that to the latest version of MediaWiki:
MediaWiki 1.15alpha (r46424)
PHP 5.2.4-2ubuntu5wm1 (apache2handler)
MySQL 4.0.40-wikimedia-log
TDN is outdated by 10 versions! This is a cause of concern because we are working with outdated functionality and outdated security measures. Late in 2008 TDN was compromised, which is why it was brought down temporarily. While the content was updated, the framework was neglected to the point where updating TDN to the latest version of MediaWiki is a major hurdle.
If you have access to TDN, but cannot get into the starter kit pages (Adventure Kit, Platformer Kit, and RTS Kit), we will be downloading and converting the pages to work within our Doc System framework. A new download link will be added to your account page to download the docs.
The big problem is with users who cannot log into TDN. This is because TDN is unable to create new accounts in the database. If you are given a link that goes to TDN, you can contact me or post in this thread. I will manually grab the doc and send it to you.
I am definitely going to work out a solution to start grabbing the best of the TDN docs and rolling them into our official sources. That's a hefty task, but when complete this may result in not needing TDN anymore. Again, we are still working out a plan of action.
I appreciate the patience everyone has shown. I'll try to do my best to help get this content into your hands.
Tech Information
TDN was created quite a while ago:* MediaWiki: 1.5.5
* PHP: 5.1.6 (apache2handler
* MySQL: 5.0.45-log
Compare that to the latest version of MediaWiki:
MediaWiki 1.15alpha (r46424)
PHP 5.2.4-2ubuntu5wm1 (apache2handler)
MySQL 4.0.40-wikimedia-log
TDN is outdated by 10 versions! This is a cause of concern because we are working with outdated functionality and outdated security measures. Late in 2008 TDN was compromised, which is why it was brought down temporarily. While the content was updated, the framework was neglected to the point where updating TDN to the latest version of MediaWiki is a major hurdle.
Short Term Solutions
For those of you who have access to all of TDN without any login problems, you are good to go.If you have access to TDN, but cannot get into the starter kit pages (Adventure Kit, Platformer Kit, and RTS Kit), we will be downloading and converting the pages to work within our Doc System framework. A new download link will be added to your account page to download the docs.
The big problem is with users who cannot log into TDN. This is because TDN is unable to create new accounts in the database. If you are given a link that goes to TDN, you can contact me or post in this thread. I will manually grab the doc and send it to you.
Long Term Plans
I am going to be dedicating more and more of my time to creating new content for our official docs. Spending time maintaining TDN tech and trying to fix old content will be a detriment to the official docs. We are weighing our options right now.I am definitely going to work out a solution to start grabbing the best of the TDN docs and rolling them into our official sources. That's a hefty task, but when complete this may result in not needing TDN anymore. Again, we are still working out a plan of action.
Using This Thread
This will be the place to post your need for specific tutorials. Also, whenever I have news about the status of TDN I will post it here. I'm locking down the other threads so we can start pushing more readers to this location. Feel free to send this link to anyone else who is experiencing TDN difficulties.I appreciate the patience everyone has shown. I'll try to do my best to help get this content into your hands.
About the author
Programmer.
#2
My efforts to upgrade TDN to the latest version of MediaWiki have bombed big time, and I've lost some sleep over that trying. I'm currently trying to devise a plan to get the content ported to the official docs and see what can be done to fix TDN if possible. If there is some MediaWiki guru in our community who is up to the task, I openly invite them to e-mail me directly.
A final decision has not been made, and will not be made, for a while. Official Documentation is at the top of my priority stack, and TDN has always been at the bottom. That has been publicly known since my first few blogs. For TDN to be bumped up, I have to drop my attention to the community, the Doc System, or the online pages.
If everyone wants me to fully list all the problems with TDN so the community can brainstorm on how to resolve the issues, let's do it.
01/28/2009 (3:37 pm)
@Novack - Much thanks for the input. You and I have discussed TDN before, so I take what you say to heart.Quote:Now, GG got some more, and can afford to have a proper and excellent Doc Officer... and suddenly cannot afford to maintain the Wiki!Before I came on, no one was even trying to support TDN. Users were continuing to add content, but the back-end was not being maintained and no one was going back to update tutorials. When I was trying to work on TDN, Doc System, Community, and official docs, I was buried and almost burned out.
My efforts to upgrade TDN to the latest version of MediaWiki have bombed big time, and I've lost some sleep over that trying. I'm currently trying to devise a plan to get the content ported to the official docs and see what can be done to fix TDN if possible. If there is some MediaWiki guru in our community who is up to the task, I openly invite them to e-mail me directly.
A final decision has not been made, and will not be made, for a while. Official Documentation is at the top of my priority stack, and TDN has always been at the bottom. That has been publicly known since my first few blogs. For TDN to be bumped up, I have to drop my attention to the community, the Doc System, or the online pages.
If everyone wants me to fully list all the problems with TDN so the community can brainstorm on how to resolve the issues, let's do it.
#3
Still, lets not dress in black before the funeral, your brilliant proposition on brainstorming might bring surprises! I tottally agree on such idea, if you have a clear idea of the specific issues, please write it down here.
About that, my main doubt is: why not just an external wiki hosting?
01/28/2009 (3:52 pm)
As always, your open and direct answers are greatly appreciated. You leave me with no arguments though, and not in a good way.Still, lets not dress in black before the funeral, your brilliant proposition on brainstorming might bring surprises! I tottally agree on such idea, if you have a clear idea of the specific issues, please write it down here.
About that, my main doubt is: why not just an external wiki hosting?
#4
01/28/2009 (5:14 pm)
Quick Update: We think we found the TDN login bug that was causing a majority of the errors, so this should resolve most people's issues. Make sure to refresh your cache and try logging into TDN if you had previous errors. 
#6
I think TDN fills an important niche in the doc picture and deserves to live on in some form! Look at how much mileage Unreal and Valve are getting out of their wikis. :)
01/28/2009 (6:15 pm)
I wrote most of that code originally, and you now have an e-mail in your inbox indicating my willingness to help. (Actually, it's a fwd of another e-mail about being able to help that I wrote the last guy who had to maintain it. I guess it didn't get passed along when you moved onto it.)I think TDN fills an important niche in the doc picture and deserves to live on in some form! Look at how much mileage Unreal and Valve are getting out of their wikis. :)
#7
1. It's running on old tech, which has been compromised once already. Needs to be updated to the latest MediaWiki. This should improve security, search functionality, allow for newer plug-ins, and allow moderators to have better control over maintaining the wiki.
2. Organization has broken down. TGB and Torque X are heading in the right organizational direction. We need to make TGE, TGEA, and iTorque follow suit
3. Dated material. Soooo much content on TDN is out of date. A lot of authors have abandoned tutorials. There are some tutorials that will work for a while, such as the pure TGB script ones, but a lot of the technical articles are no longer accurate
4. Speaking of abandoned, there are quite a few half finished projects. There are way too many links that go to blank pages. Sure, the first two chapters might be useful, but the remaining five are needed to make the tutorial completely helpful.
5. CONTENT! I've seen a few new articles and updates over the past few months, but for the wiki to be of any use we need more authors! If I have to set up some kind of incentive, I will consider it.
6. Aesthetics. OK, this isn't a big deal but I would really like it if TDN had a new scheme. I'm not just talking color, but layout, default editing, and linking practices.
That's a lot of work and I cannot accomplish this myself in the necessary time frame. The above issues need to be resolved soon, otherwise TDN is going to die one way or another. As Ben stated, there are some great examples of Wikis out there, such as Unreal, Valve, Ogre, and even Fallout 3 G.E.C.K.
I have more posts about TDN, but I'll let this absorb for now and wait for some more feedback.
01/28/2009 (6:48 pm)
In my opinion, here are the big problems with TDN that could be solved with some collaboration:1. It's running on old tech, which has been compromised once already. Needs to be updated to the latest MediaWiki. This should improve security, search functionality, allow for newer plug-ins, and allow moderators to have better control over maintaining the wiki.
2. Organization has broken down. TGB and Torque X are heading in the right organizational direction. We need to make TGE, TGEA, and iTorque follow suit
3. Dated material. Soooo much content on TDN is out of date. A lot of authors have abandoned tutorials. There are some tutorials that will work for a while, such as the pure TGB script ones, but a lot of the technical articles are no longer accurate
4. Speaking of abandoned, there are quite a few half finished projects. There are way too many links that go to blank pages. Sure, the first two chapters might be useful, but the remaining five are needed to make the tutorial completely helpful.
5. CONTENT! I've seen a few new articles and updates over the past few months, but for the wiki to be of any use we need more authors! If I have to set up some kind of incentive, I will consider it.
6. Aesthetics. OK, this isn't a big deal but I would really like it if TDN had a new scheme. I'm not just talking color, but layout, default editing, and linking practices.
That's a lot of work and I cannot accomplish this myself in the necessary time frame. The above issues need to be resolved soon, otherwise TDN is going to die one way or another. As Ben stated, there are some great examples of Wikis out there, such as Unreal, Valve, Ogre, and even Fallout 3 G.E.C.K.
I have more posts about TDN, but I'll let this absorb for now and wait for some more feedback.
#8
Yes, pretty much those are well known points, very good detailed and appointed, Michael.
Let me ask you a question, what chances do we have to mount a parallel TDN to work with? The work to be done is pretty much not compatible with a functional wiki.
For what I can think of the problems you enumerate, translated to tasks, those would be:
* Try/experiment with new versions.
* Structural (organizational) changes.
* Grunt work, checking one by one the pages looking for info deprecated, abandoned, outdated, etc.
* Summon capable people to write or port to TDN tutorials and articles.
* Aesthetics overhaul design and tests.
I can volunteer myself for the grunt work. I could also port articles to TDN, as well as bother some people (my specialty) to write.
In my case is subject to the times you could have in mind; if we dont have any kind of deathline though, I think this can perfectly be done.
01/28/2009 (8:06 pm)
GO Ben!Yes, pretty much those are well known points, very good detailed and appointed, Michael.
Let me ask you a question, what chances do we have to mount a parallel TDN to work with? The work to be done is pretty much not compatible with a functional wiki.
For what I can think of the problems you enumerate, translated to tasks, those would be:
* Try/experiment with new versions.
* Structural (organizational) changes.
* Grunt work, checking one by one the pages looking for info deprecated, abandoned, outdated, etc.
* Summon capable people to write or port to TDN tutorials and articles.
* Aesthetics overhaul design and tests.
I can volunteer myself for the grunt work. I could also port articles to TDN, as well as bother some people (my specialty) to write.
In my case is subject to the times you could have in mind; if we dont have any kind of deathline though, I think this can perfectly be done.
#9
No incentive necessary. Just a call for help is all:)
I can volunteer some time as well depending on the time frame. I can go through looking for outdated info as well.
01/28/2009 (8:35 pm)
@MichealNo incentive necessary. Just a call for help is all:)
I can volunteer some time as well depending on the time frame. I can go through looking for outdated info as well.
#10
01/28/2009 (8:57 pm)
You have my sword as well Michael. 
#12
01/30/2009 (12:18 pm)
Can a new version of TDN be built into the new site? Maybe branch documentation into "Offical" and "Developer". This,however, may take awhile until major issues with the new site are addressed.
#13
If we want TDN to survive, it must be improved. Again, my bandwidth is maxed so serious contribution is necessary to make it work. One way or another, the good content is going to survive. How that content survives, though, is up to the community and effort its willing to put in.
I'm already hearing some great ideas, now we need some more hands in the air.
01/30/2009 (2:29 pm)
I already have a plan on how to revitalize TDN, but it has to be executed sooner than later. It also will require some convincing and more volunteers.If we want TDN to survive, it must be improved. Again, my bandwidth is maxed so serious contribution is necessary to make it work. One way or another, the good content is going to survive. How that content survives, though, is up to the community and effort its willing to put in.
I'm already hearing some great ideas, now we need some more hands in the air.
#14
01/30/2009 (6:04 pm)
Dont push it Michael...
#15
1. "Summon capable people to write or port to TDN tutorials and articles." This has to happen first. To avoid burning a volunteer out, and distracting from the official doc work, a bare minimum of about 8-10 people are needed to get this done in a timely manner. Porting will not be too difficult...just more grunt work. Writing new content is in a whole other category.
2."Grunt work, checking one by one the pages looking for info deprecated, abandoned, outdated, etc." Save and sort the good/useful articles and files.
3. "Structural (organizational) changes." Decide up front on how each engine page should be organized and make sure guidelines have been set up for it to be enforced.
4. Once all the good content is saved and ready to be ported, we tear down old TDN and install the latest version of MediaWiki. All of the security and plug-ins have to be ready up front, and easy to upgrade. There is a good chance this system will be set up on a 3rd party site, and not on a GG server.
5. Assign a moderator, or a group of moderators, to maintain the new TDN so it does not reach the state it is in now. After the big engine pushes, I can spend time helping out with this. However, as with the original intention of TDN it will be the community's responsibility to maintain content (correct me if I'm wrong Ben).
If I have read correctly, Novack, Chip, Randy, and Scott are willing to assist. We need about 4 or 5 more people to join the project, with 1 or 2 remaining for the long haul to moderate.
If the above information does not sound outrageous, I can continue with making a detailed and official plan. Just need some more helping hands.
01/30/2009 (6:52 pm)
@Novack - Just the opposite. I'm being pushed from three separate forces regarding TDN. Your 01/29/2009 (4:06 am) post was pretty much spot on. You listed the bare minimum required for TDN to improve, but there are a few other critical tasks.1. "Summon capable people to write or port to TDN tutorials and articles." This has to happen first. To avoid burning a volunteer out, and distracting from the official doc work, a bare minimum of about 8-10 people are needed to get this done in a timely manner. Porting will not be too difficult...just more grunt work. Writing new content is in a whole other category.
2."Grunt work, checking one by one the pages looking for info deprecated, abandoned, outdated, etc." Save and sort the good/useful articles and files.
3. "Structural (organizational) changes." Decide up front on how each engine page should be organized and make sure guidelines have been set up for it to be enforced.
4. Once all the good content is saved and ready to be ported, we tear down old TDN and install the latest version of MediaWiki. All of the security and plug-ins have to be ready up front, and easy to upgrade. There is a good chance this system will be set up on a 3rd party site, and not on a GG server.
5. Assign a moderator, or a group of moderators, to maintain the new TDN so it does not reach the state it is in now. After the big engine pushes, I can spend time helping out with this. However, as with the original intention of TDN it will be the community's responsibility to maintain content (correct me if I'm wrong Ben).
If I have read correctly, Novack, Chip, Randy, and Scott are willing to assist. We need about 4 or 5 more people to join the project, with 1 or 2 remaining for the long haul to moderate.
If the above information does not sound outrageous, I can continue with making a detailed and official plan. Just need some more helping hands.
#16
--
Ok, back here.
Your points are very clear.
Something I would like to know more about, is about your timing expectations. Thats Im afraid a delicate point, considering it will be done (although coordinated by you) primary by voluteer hands, subject to important fluctuations on time availability.
That beeing said, why the rush? Would not be even better for you to take this easy considering the big other entreprises you are into? (not pretending to know more of your work than yourself, just trying to take care of you ;)
01/30/2009 (6:55 pm)
Was just kidding mate. Reading another post from you right know, be back in a couple of minutes. Dont go without me!--
Ok, back here.
Your points are very clear.
Something I would like to know more about, is about your timing expectations. Thats Im afraid a delicate point, considering it will be done (although coordinated by you) primary by voluteer hands, subject to important fluctuations on time availability.
That beeing said, why the rush? Would not be even better for you to take this easy considering the big other entreprises you are into? (not pretending to know more of your work than yourself, just trying to take care of you ;)
#17
The rush on TDN is the fact that it is vulnerable. It was compromised last year and is still in a position that it can be exploited again. If it gets compromised again, there isn't much I can say that will convince people to allow it to exist.
I don't think the main job has to be done right away, but the content needs to start getting pulled down and archived ASAP. Thankfully since that is mostly grunt work it can be fit into schedules as necessary.
I appreciate the thought you are putting into this =)
01/30/2009 (8:08 pm)
@Novack - Yeah, I know you were kiddin' but it was a nice opportunity for me to mention that there are those for and against TDN. The rush on TDN is the fact that it is vulnerable. It was compromised last year and is still in a position that it can be exploited again. If it gets compromised again, there isn't much I can say that will convince people to allow it to exist.
I don't think the main job has to be done right away, but the content needs to start getting pulled down and archived ASAP. Thankfully since that is mostly grunt work it can be fit into schedules as necessary.
I appreciate the thought you are putting into this =)
#18
Anyway, how about we go ahead and start divvying up the content to pull.
01/30/2009 (8:55 pm)
C'mon people, get those hands in the air. If I have to put on a kilt, paint my face blue, and moon the English army to get people motivated to help then so help me I will. Though I would prefer to not, it is a bit on the cold side right now after all.Anyway, how about we go ahead and start divvying up the content to pull.
#19
I'm more than happy to help with porting, formatting, editing and the like.
(As an Englishman, the threat of being mooned by a blue-faced, kilt clad American has thoroughly motivated me to sign up.)
01/31/2009 (6:26 am)
I'll throw my hand in for grunt work assuming limited technical knowledge of Torque doesn't cripple my immediate usefulness.I'm more than happy to help with porting, formatting, editing and the like.
(As an Englishman, the threat of being mooned by a blue-faced, kilt clad American has thoroughly motivated me to sign up.)
#20
as it saying Only Forest Kit owners can access this content.
when you go to the tdn pages
thanks
02/01/2009 (4:53 am)
can you fix the link on the TGEForest Free Release resourceas it saying Only Forest Kit owners can access this content.
when you go to the tdn pages
thanks
Torque 3D Owner Novack
CyberianSoftware
Nor the short, nor the long term solutions, cover the fix of the actual TDN problems. The reason, you say, is that any time invested on TDN is time lost from the main reference documentation... sounds to me like coercion buddy.
"Tdn is too old and screwed" is just the truth, but then "so, to the hell with it" is the only possible conlusion? I mean, c'mon, TDN losing attention was not magical, its just the result of prioritization on times when GG just didnt have enough resources.
Now, GG got some more, and can afford to have a proper and excellent Doc Officer... and suddenly cannot afford to maintain the Wiki!
I understand that a good documentation is the fundamental stone, and that the main effort should be put there; but I dont think TDN aims to cover that area, or much less 'compete' on that sense, but complement. A highly needed complement, I must say.
Please, Please! Consider it twice before shuting down TDN. It has proven to be a really efficient tool, all along.