Torque 3D?
by Thanhda Tie · in Torque Game Engine Advanced · 01/09/2009 (11:32 pm) · 58 replies
I'm just curious. Is Torque 3D just a renaming of TGEA? with new levels, or upgraded stronghold level? or is it a different engine completely. or is it just TGEA 1.9 renamed?
#2
01/09/2009 (11:51 pm)
We currently have code for TGEA 1.7. How hard would it be to port over to Torque 3D. Or is it going to be way too different to merge over 
#3
Moving from TGEA 1.7 to TGEA 1.8 will effect any GFX, Material, Shadergen, and RenderInstance changes you've made. It also gets into changes to the main loop and the ResourceManager.
Moving from TGEA 1.8 to Torque 3D will be most effected by custom code in lighting, terrain, and interiors.
We are doing a fairly deep refactor of the directory structures but I am hoping that you will be able to drop a working game folder from TGEA 1.7.1 or TGEA 1.8 and have it work (might prompt for a few automatic conversions).
01/10/2009 (12:22 am)
As always that depends on how much custom C++ code you've written.Moving from TGEA 1.7 to TGEA 1.8 will effect any GFX, Material, Shadergen, and RenderInstance changes you've made. It also gets into changes to the main loop and the ResourceManager.
Moving from TGEA 1.8 to Torque 3D will be most effected by custom code in lighting, terrain, and interiors.
We are doing a fairly deep refactor of the directory structures but I am hoping that you will be able to drop a working game folder from TGEA 1.7.1 or TGEA 1.8 and have it work (might prompt for a few automatic conversions).
#4
02/02/2009 (3:14 am)
Go Garage Games! I agree. Everything's going to be fine.
#5
Torque has more shipped games than any other engine out there. Sure, some of those are lower quality but I would easily stand Legions, RokkitBall, Metal Drift, Penny Arcade Adventures, Hinterland, Buccaneer, Dreamlords, and Lore Aftermath up beside most AAA title and say that they are of equal quality (just not as big). The tech is clearly no hindrance in creating high quality games.
Torque is a resounding success!
Us changing how we sell Torque is in no way saying that Torque is a failure...it is just an acknowledgment that if we want Torque to continue to be the success that it has been in the current market, we are going to have to step things up a bit.
02/02/2009 (3:31 am)
Vector,Torque has more shipped games than any other engine out there. Sure, some of those are lower quality but I would easily stand Legions, RokkitBall, Metal Drift, Penny Arcade Adventures, Hinterland, Buccaneer, Dreamlords, and Lore Aftermath up beside most AAA title and say that they are of equal quality (just not as big). The tech is clearly no hindrance in creating high quality games.
Torque is a resounding success!
Us changing how we sell Torque is in no way saying that Torque is a failure...it is just an acknowledgment that if we want Torque to continue to be the success that it has been in the current market, we are going to have to step things up a bit.
#6
You obviously havnt seen what T3D looks like, nor do you know the success of GG. Commercial companies have already used Torque engine for the release of several game. With the economy situation, I think Torque is the perfect platform to dev on.
in the mean time you got to check these T3D video's. amazing!
btw the beat in the first vid is sick!
02/02/2009 (4:52 am)
Vector,You obviously havnt seen what T3D looks like, nor do you know the success of GG. Commercial companies have already used Torque engine for the release of several game. With the economy situation, I think Torque is the perfect platform to dev on.
in the mean time you got to check these T3D video's. amazing!
btw the beat in the first vid is sick!
#7
02/02/2009 (5:44 am)
Go Garage Games! I agree. Everything's going to be fine. 
#8
They have a pretty large team working on TGEA at the moment. How is that going to get paid for? For years with TGEA stuck on phase 2 and 3 we heard a lot of complaints about it never getting finished, being disappointing, etc. Well things are moving much better now, and a lot of that has to do with the team growing in size. Those guys aren't working for goodwill though. More people = more production but also = more cost. I have no clue what the price of T3d is going to wind up at. But I did understand when they started getting larger that it would probably mean a price hike at some point. You don't have to buy it.
02/02/2009 (6:15 am)
@Vector: It would be hard for GG to beat UnrealTech for features, they just have too much money and too much exposure at the moment. But they don't have to beat it, and they don't have to match it. There is a significant cost difference between $350 and $500,000. The upper end engines are $250,000+. There are some middle ground engines such as NetImmerse at $20,000ish (don't know what exactly it is at). Personally, if they can deliver on the tech, I don't mind paying $1000ish, and while I'd rather not go any higher than that, if the features were right I would go a little higher. Some others wouldn't, but isn't that what a tiered pricing and TGEA are there for? They have a pretty large team working on TGEA at the moment. How is that going to get paid for? For years with TGEA stuck on phase 2 and 3 we heard a lot of complaints about it never getting finished, being disappointing, etc. Well things are moving much better now, and a lot of that has to do with the team growing in size. Those guys aren't working for goodwill though. More people = more production but also = more cost. I have no clue what the price of T3d is going to wind up at. But I did understand when they started getting larger that it would probably mean a price hike at some point. You don't have to buy it.
#9
02/02/2009 (6:47 am)
Go Garage Games! I agree. Everything's going to be fine. 
#10
"If Microsoft told us they had opened a new development complex in Switzerland to produce the next version of Explorer and because of the expense they were going to have to charge $750 dollars for the app, we would all think, wow, that was pretty dumb, why did you do that?"
What do you think they do, give away Window 7 to everyone for free. Where do you think they make their money? Its not the little guys trying to compare torques business plan to microsoft isnt even a comparison. microsoft makes in a day what GG makes in a year. They get their money through Goverment contracts and Commercial deals. 90% of all server/goverment and commercial computers all employ windows ie Microsoft. And while were at it Lets talk Xbox.. Yah. so Microsoft vs Torque, not really a comparison.. oh and have you tried to get a licence for to publish a Xbox license? its not cheap. Nintendo is even worse. Trying to make a excuse why T3D "might" be worse or cost more doesnt make sense.. As well as the whole comparing it to Unreal. Trying to compare a 500k engine license, and i think thats per title.. if im not mistaken. to a 300 dollar per seat license.. Come on, its a old argument. Like or or lump it. Get your head on straight or move on to your "better" engine.
"pricing can't start with what you need to break even, it has to start with what your product is worth and more importantly what are your customers prepared to pay. I wont have to buy T3D, you're right, I'm lucky enough to have other options."
These are your words. I am sure there are a few folks that will agree with me when we say. "Sorry to see you feel that way. Dont miss the door on the way out."
02/02/2009 (7:51 am)
umm, Vector that remark.."If Microsoft told us they had opened a new development complex in Switzerland to produce the next version of Explorer and because of the expense they were going to have to charge $750 dollars for the app, we would all think, wow, that was pretty dumb, why did you do that?"
What do you think they do, give away Window 7 to everyone for free. Where do you think they make their money? Its not the little guys trying to compare torques business plan to microsoft isnt even a comparison. microsoft makes in a day what GG makes in a year. They get their money through Goverment contracts and Commercial deals. 90% of all server/goverment and commercial computers all employ windows ie Microsoft. And while were at it Lets talk Xbox.. Yah. so Microsoft vs Torque, not really a comparison.. oh and have you tried to get a licence for to publish a Xbox license? its not cheap. Nintendo is even worse. Trying to make a excuse why T3D "might" be worse or cost more doesnt make sense.. As well as the whole comparing it to Unreal. Trying to compare a 500k engine license, and i think thats per title.. if im not mistaken. to a 300 dollar per seat license.. Come on, its a old argument. Like or or lump it. Get your head on straight or move on to your "better" engine.
"pricing can't start with what you need to break even, it has to start with what your product is worth and more importantly what are your customers prepared to pay. I wont have to buy T3D, you're right, I'm lucky enough to have other options."
These are your words. I am sure there are a few folks that will agree with me when we say. "Sorry to see you feel that way. Dont miss the door on the way out."
#11
In your words, the games produced by Torque look "second rate". But then you complain about having to fork over extra dollars to get Torque3D, which is going to raise the graphical bar.
That having been said, TGEA can produce good graphics as it stands right now, its a capable engine for a low price. Most of the Torque games were produced with TGE which is older technology, obviously. If a TGEA product comes out and doesn't look good, that usually has more to do with the fact that the artists weren't as good as those from the big studios. Nowadays though if you have a moderate sized budget, you can get quite a bit of professional grade graphics done from a third party art team. The Chinese art studios typically work for $100-150 a day. A high quality character might take you 7 days of work. That may be out of the price range for a hobbyist, but for an indie developer with a moderate budget, they can contract out their graphics and TGEA currently can deliver pretty good visuals. Certainly not on par with the top engines, primarily due to the lighting and shadows, but with proper design the games can look very good.
It should also be noted that not all games need pretty graphics. Companies like Popcap and Chronic Logic have done well without them.
The most recent project I've worked on here has been in development now for over two years. We're looking at an August launch. We're a good example of an indie sized studio with a moderate budget. I'd estimate by the time we ship we would have spent between $20,000-25,000 over a 2 1/2 year development cycle. Most of that money was spent on art contractors, with other money being spent on hardware and co-location fees. That may not be indicitive of your average indie team, but it's not an anomoly either. This is my fourth project with Torque and on the previous titles, all of them outsourced in one way or another. They were either contracting programmers, contracting artists, or both. Then there are a lot of other small teams working on a shoestring budget. They both exist.
Now personally I'm looking at T3D with a lot of interest. T3D may very well not come out soon enough for us to realistically upgrade and properly test as our current maps are done with Atlas so it would probably involve significant work. If T3D does hit the market prior to us shipping, then we'll certainly take a look and determine whether or not it is worth delaying our launch to upgrade. We certainly don't need to. If T3D never came out, we'd be shipping with 1.7.1, which is what may likely happen anyway. But now we'd have an additional option, and I don't see how options can be a bad thing. In our case its not really an issue of money, more of timeframe and the time/difficulty of porting. But whether we do or not, I don't see why we would feel shafted or turned off by having another option. It's a choice not a requirement.
When it comes down to the cost, I'd certainly be happy if it were under $1000. The less the better, I don't like to throw money away. But there is also a saying that you get what you pay for, to go along with time is money. If the new features of T3D save me time and deliver on quality, then to me, it's worth the money. I too would hate to see the hobbyists go away though, because they strengthen the community. But worst case scenario, they can stick with TGEA
02/02/2009 (8:23 am)
@Vector: Hobbyists and students are certainly part of GG's market, but that's not their only market. You've made a lot of negative sounding comments regarding indie studios in your posts. From saying their products are second rate to their products fall short of their aspirations. There are alot of successful indie games on the market. They may not sell 100,000 copies but they sell enough to churn reasonable profits. There's also a large number of indie developers who take contract work on these games and make a reasonable living that way. In your words, the games produced by Torque look "second rate". But then you complain about having to fork over extra dollars to get Torque3D, which is going to raise the graphical bar.
That having been said, TGEA can produce good graphics as it stands right now, its a capable engine for a low price. Most of the Torque games were produced with TGE which is older technology, obviously. If a TGEA product comes out and doesn't look good, that usually has more to do with the fact that the artists weren't as good as those from the big studios. Nowadays though if you have a moderate sized budget, you can get quite a bit of professional grade graphics done from a third party art team. The Chinese art studios typically work for $100-150 a day. A high quality character might take you 7 days of work. That may be out of the price range for a hobbyist, but for an indie developer with a moderate budget, they can contract out their graphics and TGEA currently can deliver pretty good visuals. Certainly not on par with the top engines, primarily due to the lighting and shadows, but with proper design the games can look very good.
It should also be noted that not all games need pretty graphics. Companies like Popcap and Chronic Logic have done well without them.
The most recent project I've worked on here has been in development now for over two years. We're looking at an August launch. We're a good example of an indie sized studio with a moderate budget. I'd estimate by the time we ship we would have spent between $20,000-25,000 over a 2 1/2 year development cycle. Most of that money was spent on art contractors, with other money being spent on hardware and co-location fees. That may not be indicitive of your average indie team, but it's not an anomoly either. This is my fourth project with Torque and on the previous titles, all of them outsourced in one way or another. They were either contracting programmers, contracting artists, or both. Then there are a lot of other small teams working on a shoestring budget. They both exist.
Now personally I'm looking at T3D with a lot of interest. T3D may very well not come out soon enough for us to realistically upgrade and properly test as our current maps are done with Atlas so it would probably involve significant work. If T3D does hit the market prior to us shipping, then we'll certainly take a look and determine whether or not it is worth delaying our launch to upgrade. We certainly don't need to. If T3D never came out, we'd be shipping with 1.7.1, which is what may likely happen anyway. But now we'd have an additional option, and I don't see how options can be a bad thing. In our case its not really an issue of money, more of timeframe and the time/difficulty of porting. But whether we do or not, I don't see why we would feel shafted or turned off by having another option. It's a choice not a requirement.
When it comes down to the cost, I'd certainly be happy if it were under $1000. The less the better, I don't like to throw money away. But there is also a saying that you get what you pay for, to go along with time is money. If the new features of T3D save me time and deliver on quality, then to me, it's worth the money. I too would hate to see the hobbyists go away though, because they strengthen the community. But worst case scenario, they can stick with TGEA
#12
02/02/2009 (9:40 am)
Go Garage Games! I agree. Everything's going to be fine.
#13
02/02/2009 (10:00 am)
Well, now that you have schooled us.. I just have one question, How many games have you made.. and published?
#14
02/02/2009 (11:15 am)
@Vector: No, what your doing is coming in and complaining about things, and then when people give you legitimate answers to those concerns, what do you do? You go berserk, insult everyone and act like an idiot. It's pretty obvious what your intent here is. Now go to sleep, I think it's past your bed time. If you want to have a serious discussion, then you need to act accordingly. Because right now, there is no way anyone can take you seriously. Your trolling, and nothign else. 
#15
02/02/2009 (2:25 pm)
Don't feed the trolls. And don't forget to use fire, or they'll regenerate!
#17
Unless you have been hacking our financial records, I'm not really sure how you are in any position to say whether we are a success or a failure.
We are hardly a "start up" who just realized that our "big idea has failed" and are scrambling to stay in business. We've been around for a decade now and have been very successful with selling our products for close to 8 years. We are in no danger of going under or "failing" unless we fail to recognize that the indie middleware market is a very different place than when we created it and we don't respond appropriately.
The new website, the higher price point on Torque 3D, InstantAction, larger product development teams...these are pieces of the necessary strategy to keep us relevant, useful, productive, and profitable. They are not last ditch efforts to save a sinking ship.
Since you aren't in the position to know what we know then your options are to either take us at our word or to not trust us. Honestly, either way matters little to me except that I'd prefer to not see you spreading your opinions around as "truths" without offering our side of the story (based on real facts).
02/02/2009 (4:26 pm)
Vector,Unless you have been hacking our financial records, I'm not really sure how you are in any position to say whether we are a success or a failure.
We are hardly a "start up" who just realized that our "big idea has failed" and are scrambling to stay in business. We've been around for a decade now and have been very successful with selling our products for close to 8 years. We are in no danger of going under or "failing" unless we fail to recognize that the indie middleware market is a very different place than when we created it and we don't respond appropriately.
The new website, the higher price point on Torque 3D, InstantAction, larger product development teams...these are pieces of the necessary strategy to keep us relevant, useful, productive, and profitable. They are not last ditch efforts to save a sinking ship.
Since you aren't in the position to know what we know then your options are to either take us at our word or to not trust us. Honestly, either way matters little to me except that I'd prefer to not see you spreading your opinions around as "truths" without offering our side of the story (based on real facts).
#18
I find it very strange, that you claim to know a lot about GG and it's engines. Yet you havn't owned or used this engine. You don't bring much credibility to the table with your rants. I dont know where you are getting your information from. But like matt said, don't spread your opinions as the "truth" without offering some real solid facts and maybe reference.
02/02/2009 (7:08 pm)
Vector,I find it very strange, that you claim to know a lot about GG and it's engines. Yet you havn't owned or used this engine. You don't bring much credibility to the table with your rants. I dont know where you are getting your information from. But like matt said, don't spread your opinions as the "truth" without offering some real solid facts and maybe reference.
#19
As a business owner, I look at one thing above and beyond all others. That unquestionably would be cost-efficiency. Break that term down. That is maximum efficiency at a minimized cost. People who spend a ton of money for something good haven't been shopping around enough. This engine is more than high enough quality to compete in today's market, even though it's not in competition with UT.
Big developers have ALREADY used Torque before. They're going to come back. If you don't believe me, check out their credentials yourself.
Also, you seem to be (no harm intended) excluding a major issue in the market right now. That is a huge economic recession. If you're a big company who's cutting costs, say for instance.. not going to name names, but the guys who came up with the Token Ring network. They just fired 30% of their staff in most locations. Are you going to HIRE expensive programmers to build you an engine, or even worse spend MILLIONS on copies of the UT license? Hardly. That would just be an ridiculously uneducated move on a decision maker's part.
This engine is the bridge between the gap of cost-effectiveness and quality. That is the bottom line, and it's GarageGames' bread and butter. And it's going to work. If you don't believe me, let's wait and see instead of bickering about it here.
Don't tell us they suck. Prove it.
02/02/2009 (9:41 pm)
Now Vector, I have to say.. Even if everything you say is true:As a business owner, I look at one thing above and beyond all others. That unquestionably would be cost-efficiency. Break that term down. That is maximum efficiency at a minimized cost. People who spend a ton of money for something good haven't been shopping around enough. This engine is more than high enough quality to compete in today's market, even though it's not in competition with UT.
Big developers have ALREADY used Torque before. They're going to come back. If you don't believe me, check out their credentials yourself.
Also, you seem to be (no harm intended) excluding a major issue in the market right now. That is a huge economic recession. If you're a big company who's cutting costs, say for instance.. not going to name names, but the guys who came up with the Token Ring network. They just fired 30% of their staff in most locations. Are you going to HIRE expensive programmers to build you an engine, or even worse spend MILLIONS on copies of the UT license? Hardly. That would just be an ridiculously uneducated move on a decision maker's part.
This engine is the bridge between the gap of cost-effectiveness and quality. That is the bottom line, and it's GarageGames' bread and butter. And it's going to work. If you don't believe me, let's wait and see instead of bickering about it here.
Don't tell us they suck. Prove it.
#20
As with any product, it's how you implement it that matters...
Take a look at Gerhard's blog for example...
http://tgeaenhanced.blogspot.com/
GG provides a fantastic tool to the community and we don't pay much for either... Do you have anything constructive to say here? What point are you trying to make?
-Pete
02/10/2009 (3:06 pm)
Vector - As with any product, it's how you implement it that matters...
Take a look at Gerhard's blog for example...
http://tgeaenhanced.blogspot.com/
GG provides a fantastic tool to the community and we don't pay much for either... Do you have anything constructive to say here? What point are you trying to make?
-Pete
Associate Matt Fairfax
PopCap
It is a bit beyond TGEA + new levels. There are some pretty big new features and a ton of polish and cleanup and bug fixing.
It is a further evolution of the existing TGEA codebase rather than a complete rewrite but the changes are going to be well worth the cost of upgrade.