TGEA a good engine for someone who wants to focus on design?
by Robert York · in General Discussion · 11/06/2008 (12:53 am) · 22 replies
I'm a computer engineer by schooling, and have worked a couple years doing some embedded firmware coding in C for aviation, but have always liked the idea of making my own game. I've done some 3D modelling back many years ago as well, and now I'd like to explore making my own game.
First, I'm deployed in Iraq, so learning this is limited, as my internet access may come and go for long periods at a time. But it also means I have long periods of free time, (or none at all for stretches). I'm a big one for games that look good, and although I've done a bit of programming in my day, I'm more interested in creating a world in a game than programming and spending days on end figuring out how to get a character to move where you click. I'd like to work on something similar to how Diablo or Dungeon Siege works, but with a different game system and feel, of course. An isometric 3D RPG sorta game. It's not that I can't code, it's just not what drives me, and not what I want to get out of this. The game is mainly for my own development rather than to be some great big seller, but for my own sake, I want it to look good. in the future I may decide to do something more with it.
Now, the question is, given that I want to play a lot with shaders, special effects and particles and such, but am interested in developing a game, not developing code, is TGEA something that I could work with? Are there other versions of Torque which are more drag and drop, write some scripts, move to the next entity sort of things? I tried the demo and wasn't able to get much out of it. It seems like it could do what I want, but since I couldn't start from ground zero and write some little test game, it's hard to tell.
Specification wise, TGEA looks like what I'm interested in, but the web page keeps saying you need to dig under the hood to make games, which is NOT what I want. I want some nice drag and drop editor, and focus on the world, not the code. I've also got a mac and have been looking at Unity3D, so comparisons on the two would be helpful.
First, I'm deployed in Iraq, so learning this is limited, as my internet access may come and go for long periods at a time. But it also means I have long periods of free time, (or none at all for stretches). I'm a big one for games that look good, and although I've done a bit of programming in my day, I'm more interested in creating a world in a game than programming and spending days on end figuring out how to get a character to move where you click. I'd like to work on something similar to how Diablo or Dungeon Siege works, but with a different game system and feel, of course. An isometric 3D RPG sorta game. It's not that I can't code, it's just not what drives me, and not what I want to get out of this. The game is mainly for my own development rather than to be some great big seller, but for my own sake, I want it to look good. in the future I may decide to do something more with it.
Now, the question is, given that I want to play a lot with shaders, special effects and particles and such, but am interested in developing a game, not developing code, is TGEA something that I could work with? Are there other versions of Torque which are more drag and drop, write some scripts, move to the next entity sort of things? I tried the demo and wasn't able to get much out of it. It seems like it could do what I want, but since I couldn't start from ground zero and write some little test game, it's hard to tell.
Specification wise, TGEA looks like what I'm interested in, but the web page keeps saying you need to dig under the hood to make games, which is NOT what I want. I want some nice drag and drop editor, and focus on the world, not the code. I've also got a mac and have been looking at Unity3D, so comparisons on the two would be helpful.
#2
11/06/2008 (5:12 am)
Well, as I said, scripting isn't a problem. It's the writing 200 lines of code to get a tank's turret to move, or several hundred to allow the character to pick up an object from the ground that I want to avoid. I'm looking for something where I can tell some turret object attatched to a tank object, what heading to face in one or two lines of script, and it works without me doing matrix algebra. Yeah, getting tank track to animate around the wheels may take a little more work, but it shouldn't be a 40 hour work week to do so. It's not that I can't do code, it's just I'm trying to focus on creating a world to play in, rather than making code to let you play. 
#3
Getting tank tracks to animate around the wheels is one example where you pretty much have to go into the codebase and change stuff. It's a general purpose game engine and these things are rather game specific.
I understand where you're coming from. You want to make the actual game and not the tech behind it. That's something I would love too, but you won't find it in TGEA for obvious reasons. Don't get me wrong, TGEA is awesome and has alot of nice tech in it, but it has to cater to all of us and thus it can't be too specific.
11/06/2008 (7:36 am)
Someone has to write that turret and tank object, it's not something that's ready-made for you that you can access in script. There are a resources section on this site, with code that you can pop into the engine and "just" use. Many of them are outdated though and will require code changes.Getting tank tracks to animate around the wheels is one example where you pretty much have to go into the codebase and change stuff. It's a general purpose game engine and these things are rather game specific.
I understand where you're coming from. You want to make the actual game and not the tech behind it. That's something I would love too, but you won't find it in TGEA for obvious reasons. Don't get me wrong, TGEA is awesome and has alot of nice tech in it, but it has to cater to all of us and thus it can't be too specific.
#4
As for working on the game vs working on the engine, welcome to the world of game development, there is no such thing as a ready made engine, doesnt exist, unless your making a clone or a mod. in which case go pick up what game your most wanting to emulate and check out the modding groups. However if your wanting to actually create a original game, welcome to the world of game development.
If i seem harsh, its becuase we see so many folks that want the items handed to them. Particular those that are capable of actually programming or are artists im sure the items you are looking for wont take 40 hours of work. but it might take a few hours for each feature. Games arent popped out in 10 hours per feature. If it were that easy, we would see alot more games and not 150+ programmers and artists and 1-2 years of development on the titles most of use play. Just the reality.
and as a note, we thank you for your service to our country. Stay safe.
11/06/2008 (8:09 am)
There is a tank pack that is a good place to start with for a reasonable price with a tank model, source and such. Turret, secondary weapons and deformable tracks. it works well and might be pretty close to what you want. As for working on the game vs working on the engine, welcome to the world of game development, there is no such thing as a ready made engine, doesnt exist, unless your making a clone or a mod. in which case go pick up what game your most wanting to emulate and check out the modding groups. However if your wanting to actually create a original game, welcome to the world of game development.
If i seem harsh, its becuase we see so many folks that want the items handed to them. Particular those that are capable of actually programming or are artists im sure the items you are looking for wont take 40 hours of work. but it might take a few hours for each feature. Games arent popped out in 10 hours per feature. If it were that easy, we would see alot more games and not 150+ programmers and artists and 1-2 years of development on the titles most of use play. Just the reality.
and as a note, we thank you for your service to our country. Stay safe.
#5
Are there any start to finish tutorials for a simple game? (preferably, doable with the free trial) That'd help me get a feel for what kind of effort it would take for me. Otherwise I'd end up just asking a billion questions about how easy is it to do 'x', until I've figured out how the engine works. I don't know how robust the object system is, or how abstract it is from the code. If you had an object with a turret attached at a set of coords with an orientation of whatever, then that was considered the turret's zero state, for example, it's easy to use one line (I would hope) to adjust its rotation about whatever axis. But like I said, I'm not sure how much of that sorta thing the engine provides, or if I have to write up the object framework myself.
11/06/2008 (8:12 am)
Well, that was an example of something that I would expect to be more complex, but hopefully not as complex as if I were just using straight VC++ and direct3D calls. I tried that a while back. Was not what I want.Are there any start to finish tutorials for a simple game? (preferably, doable with the free trial) That'd help me get a feel for what kind of effort it would take for me. Otherwise I'd end up just asking a billion questions about how easy is it to do 'x', until I've figured out how the engine works. I don't know how robust the object system is, or how abstract it is from the code. If you had an object with a turret attached at a set of coords with an orientation of whatever, then that was considered the turret's zero state, for example, it's easy to use one line (I would hope) to adjust its rotation about whatever axis. But like I said, I'm not sure how much of that sorta thing the engine provides, or if I have to write up the object framework myself.
#6
And I have seen what I consider some pretty ready made engines (Unity3D, for example) which I've played with, and were pretty darn simple to get a character moving around. From what I've seen of the demo, I -think- TGEA is about on par, but I don't know, given the limitations I ran into of the demo. Perhaps I was lacking a good set of directions, but I couldn't figure out for the life of me how to make a simple little game. I could put things in the world with the editor, but that's about it.
11/06/2008 (8:24 am)
Also, just to note, I'll probably never need a turret, since I was thinking something more fantasy. I was using it as an example of something that would be tough with straight direct3D calls and managing your own vertex buffers, without writing a game engine yourself. I would hope a good game engine would have a built in object system for entities in the game that would make things like that trivial. I saw the tank pack, which is what brought it to mind.And I have seen what I consider some pretty ready made engines (Unity3D, for example) which I've played with, and were pretty darn simple to get a character moving around. From what I've seen of the demo, I -think- TGEA is about on par, but I don't know, given the limitations I ran into of the demo. Perhaps I was lacking a good set of directions, but I couldn't figure out for the life of me how to make a simple little game. I could put things in the world with the editor, but that's about it.
#7
you should define your simple little game. For some folks on here, WoW is a simple little game they play 40 hours a week. But that would be what you need todo first. Before anything else. Get a notebook or make a document, Define, what you want. then look at what you need. Models? Weapons? Scripts? Special features.
You need a Design document and take some time to look around at what you want to do. This will stop alot of confusion ie going from talking about making animated tank tracks to well lets make something more fantasy to how to make a simple game. those 3 things can cover a huge amount of material when you get into the nuts and bolts of game creation.
if you looking at making a RPG style FPS, maybe look at AFX. But you will most definitly need to get a license with source.
11/06/2008 (8:37 am)
If your making what would be considered a simple shooter FPS, then 90% of the stuff is in there already. Player runs, jumps shoots. In the demo. Again i would recommend picking up a pack or two. a good one is the soldier pack, it comes with a m16 that will give you some additional weapon examples. there are free tutorials as well for FPS style inventory. most of which can be done completely in script. It really depends on what kind of game you are trying to do. TGE/A is designed with several types of games on mind. But its left wide open so you can pretty much go any direction you want to go. you should define your simple little game. For some folks on here, WoW is a simple little game they play 40 hours a week. But that would be what you need todo first. Before anything else. Get a notebook or make a document, Define, what you want. then look at what you need. Models? Weapons? Scripts? Special features.
You need a Design document and take some time to look around at what you want to do. This will stop alot of confusion ie going from talking about making animated tank tracks to well lets make something more fantasy to how to make a simple game. those 3 things can cover a huge amount of material when you get into the nuts and bolts of game creation.
if you looking at making a RPG style FPS, maybe look at AFX. But you will most definitly need to get a license with source.
#8
The AFX is definately something I'd invest in once I got things rolling. I don't have a problem getting the license and all for TGEA, but I don't want to invest the time and money only to realise learning how to do all this stuff is more frustrating than it's worth for me, espcially since I won't have the luxury of the internet all the time to ask people for help should I run into troubles. So I'm trying to research which engine (mainly between this and Unity3D) I'll be able to get the results I want without slaving for a month over getting basic things like a 3rd person point and click RPG sorta interface. I'm fairly certian Unity3D will do it easy, as I got to toy with that for a few hours and could get a lot done. But it cuts out a lot of the prettier graphics features unless you pay the $1500 professional license. TGEA does all that for $300. And there seems to be a bigger community for TGEA, even if the workflow isn't as nice as Unity3D.
So, I got to figure out what level of coding effort TGEA will require, which has been hard for me to gauge. Is it possible to make a game from scratch with the demo? Are there tutorials in doing so?
11/06/2008 (12:04 pm)
I've got my design document for the most part, but right now I'm focused on a basic sort of isometric fantasy RPG like diablo. If I can get something where a non animated character moves where I click, and I can figure out inventory (which I imagine will take some effort), and basic combat, all in third person perspective, I think the rest I'll be able to figure out. If that in itself is real tough, then I may be in for more than I bargained for. Fancy things like spell effects, equiping items (and them showing on the char), fancy animations, etc, will come with time. So when I talk about a simple game, I mean like a ball on some terrian that can hit/shoot another ball, and pick up an item and have it show up in an inventory box. Oh, and collision detection stuff. Once I am comfortable I can do that without too much trouble, I think it'll be worth while to invest the time to go from there and make it into something presentable with fancy special effects, shaders, animated characters, fancy levels, etc. It'd be great if there was a tutorial to get me most the way there.The AFX is definately something I'd invest in once I got things rolling. I don't have a problem getting the license and all for TGEA, but I don't want to invest the time and money only to realise learning how to do all this stuff is more frustrating than it's worth for me, espcially since I won't have the luxury of the internet all the time to ask people for help should I run into troubles. So I'm trying to research which engine (mainly between this and Unity3D) I'll be able to get the results I want without slaving for a month over getting basic things like a 3rd person point and click RPG sorta interface. I'm fairly certian Unity3D will do it easy, as I got to toy with that for a few hours and could get a lot done. But it cuts out a lot of the prettier graphics features unless you pay the $1500 professional license. TGEA does all that for $300. And there seems to be a bigger community for TGEA, even if the workflow isn't as nice as Unity3D.
So, I got to figure out what level of coding effort TGEA will require, which has been hard for me to gauge. Is it possible to make a game from scratch with the demo? Are there tutorials in doing so?
#9
i was working on a diablo style system at one point and its really not something simple. if you are going to be getting the engine with AFX (TGEA) i have code that for you that will really push you along. just let me know. the code will need to be changed so when you click the character moves but that is simple.
i have it hooked up with the 3rd person isometric view, a custom cursor, and moving the mouse moves (rotates) the player in the direction of the mouse.
i also have code for the simple melee system upgraded to the latest version of tgea 1.7 if you want that i can also send it to you.
11/06/2008 (1:50 pm)
Hey Robert,i was working on a diablo style system at one point and its really not something simple. if you are going to be getting the engine with AFX (TGEA) i have code that for you that will really push you along. just let me know. the code will need to be changed so when you click the character moves but that is simple.
i have it hooked up with the 3rd person isometric view, a custom cursor, and moving the mouse moves (rotates) the player in the direction of the mouse.
i also have code for the simple melee system upgraded to the latest version of tgea 1.7 if you want that i can also send it to you.
#10
11/06/2008 (1:56 pm)
I appreciate the offer, Timothy. I'll need to make a decision if I'm going to use it or not first, but I certianly would appreciate the help of some examples of how to get what I'm looking for if I do decide to use it. Although its a fairly common game style (3rd person perspective), it's not so common among game engines. Probably because it's not as simple as first person. I've seen a tutorial on how to mod Half-Life 2 to be 3rd person as well, with a point and move interface for an RTS, but I think modding HL2 to do what I want will take more work than coding it in TGEA.
#11
11/06/2008 (2:13 pm)
Actually Timothy, i know i might be able to make use of that isometric setup. Would it be possible to get that packaged up so I could check out the sample of that code.
#12
11/06/2008 (2:41 pm)
Sure thing Ed. i'll zip it all up and post it tomorrow
#13
11/06/2008 (2:48 pm)
Great thanks Timothy, you would think there would be some more of these basic game types already out there.
#14
11/07/2008 (6:12 am)
Hey Ed do you have AFX for TGEA?
#15
11/07/2008 (6:58 am)
Yes I do, I have the combo pack for AFX for TGEA, in addition to TGE.
#16
11/07/2008 (8:18 am)
Ok, i'll be throwing together a website today with the links to the files and password protected, ill send you the username and password when its ready
#18
11/07/2008 (10:35 am)
Is the email address in your profile current? ill be emailing you the info soon just waiting for DNS to resolve on the site.
#19
decided to post a thread for it.
11/07/2008 (10:56 am)
www.garagegames.com/mg/forums/result.thread.php?qt=80644decided to post a thread for it.
#20
11/10/2008 (6:15 am)
Well they deleted the thread for some reason...if you didn't get a chance to download this just let me know. 
Torque Owner Stefan Lundmark
(Playing around with shaders without touching any code sounds difficult)
You won't find what you're looking for in TGEA. It's an amazing engine, especially if you consider its price and the community - but it's not a game maker, not even close. You'll have to write scripts, at least. Not sure if you consider that programming though.
Most of the stuff GFX-wise will be in the engine, though I've gotten the impression they are moving in the direction of scriptable calls to GFX. We're not there yet, however.
I've only heard good things about Unity3D, but I get the impression that's a game engine, too. Hopefully someone can give you more information about that.