Torque ok for RPG's or something else?

#1

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Was Tribes 1 or 2 built using Torque??

Yes. Both were made using torque, as well as a slew of other games that aren't fps. (IE: marbleBlast, tribalTrouble, African Adventure, etc...)

#2 Wow, no warnings for this poor soul?

Torque is very difficult to use for a good RPG Game, especially if you want to do anything out of the box.

It's not impossible, but you have to significantly modify the engine to get even the simplest of things to work for an RPG.

And the engine is not laid out as an API... you get all of the source code, but you also have to learn all of it as well before you can dive in and start making changes to it.

If you don't have a fantastic C++ programmer or two (and I'm talking fantastic, like Scott Meyers level) then you really shouldn't use Torque, especially for an RPG.

If you're dead set on Torque then use TGE + AFX... it's your best option for making a great looking game.

If you're not dead set, depending on your skill level you should check out Realm Crafter or LeadWerks or even my own engine, Zen Engine with the RPG Starter Kit

All three of these are a whole lot easier to use than Torque.

Realm Crafter is easier to use, but the network code isn't the best around.
LeadWerks is fantastic, but it has the disadvantage of only working on modern computers with shaders but no biggie because by the time you're done with your game then I don't think that will be an issue.

Zen Engine is still undergoing beta testing and the RPG Kit is still under development but it's already quite stable and has the best graphics, it's the most flexible, and it has the most features... and it's free.

Torque is fantastic for making games that have the same basic gameplay as Tribes 1 and 2... and TGEA has stunning graphics capabilities, but your sacrifice is an extremely steep learning curve.

But take my advice with a grain of salt and listen to the other guys too... since I'm the primary developer for Zen Engine then my opinion is biased :P

#3 I think Tony is exaggerating a bit.

Quote:It's not impossible, but you have to significantly modify the engine to get even the simplest of things to work for an RPG.

You can actually create the majority of your gameplay mechanics in script.

#4 Depends of what RPG genre you want to make.

#5 I agree with Peter, you can absolutely make a traditional RPG using almost all script.

#6 @Steve - Can you show me a game or two that was an RPG Game made mostly with Torque Script?

If you have not used Torque to make at least one RPG Game then you really need to read my A Fool Follows a Parrot article.

First off, hopefully Jhen Zou et al isn't going to be writing just another "traditional RPG". Hopefully he's going to want to innovate at least a little bit... and I've found it difficult to make anything innovative with Torque without modifying the C++ code.

At a minimum he'll probably want to use AFX and probably he'll want to fine-tune the camera system.

Then, unless he's willing to deal with some horrible load times, he's going to want to implement some form of datablock caching.

And then there's persistence and other static data such as spells, character traits, etc that although could be read from files using scripts, you're a whole lot better off connecting to a database.

And of course there's some other great resources like mesh hiding, etc that are fantastic for RPG style games... Most of these resources are fairly well written but you still have to know what you're doing in order to use them or you end up with a bunch of compiler errors, or worse you end up with a flaky game that crashes every time you do something.

Sure, you can do it without significantly modifying Torque, but you'd be seriously limiting the capabilities of your game.

#7

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At a minimum he'll probably want to use AFX and probably he'll want to fine-tune the camera system.

Then, unless he's willing to deal with some horrible load times, he's going to want to implement some form of datablock caching.

Both of which come standard with AFX.

#8 @Jaimi - That's good to hear... After Fractured Universe I kinda gave up on TGE + AFX. I had to write my own camera because I didn't like the AFX camera, it didn't have any datablock caching, and it also didn't work for multiple players. It's good to see the improvements are being made.

Does it also give you database support and mesh hiding? ;-)

Just kidding...

But the guy needs to be made aware of the problems with Torque's API (or lack thereof) before committing to a decision... I have a whole lot more to say on this topic but I'll not hijack this thread as I've done in the past.

#9 Tony please read my blog from last night -

http://216.116.32.49/blogs/78861/15412

#10 Yes, and so far your implementation and game design have aligned with Torque's capabilities.

As soon as you deviate from that then you'll see what I'm talking about.

I only say this in warning to an unsuspecting potential customer... he really needs to know this before he makes his decision.

Quote from GG:

Quote:We know, though, there is no such thing as the perfect game engine. To make the ideal game, you will need to customize the engine to fit your needs. Fortunately, all licenses to TGE come with full C++ source code access, meaning there is no barrier between you and your game design.

What they forget to tell you is this:

TGE does not have an API for you to use... it is a game engine where they ripped some of Tribes 2 out and they're now publishing it as an engine. They didn't really rip all of Tribes 2 out either, so it's still very FPSish and there's still some remnants of Tribes 2 in it, but if you're a good programmer then you should be able to finish the job for them.

There is no barrier between you and your game design, so long as you are a fairly good programmer... but then again if you are a fairly good programmer then you wouldn't need Torque either.

Torque gives you a leg up, that's for sure... it'd suck if you had to re-write everything that Torque gives you as part of the game engine.

But Torque has it's problems... there's no clear cut API, no interfaces that are easy to use, no components that are easy to replace if you want to swap in your own rendering or physics or networking, etc... you even have to modify the core engine even if you want to do something simple like create a different style of camera.

I'm not saying Torque is a bad engine... it's not at all. I used it for about 6 years, primarily as a hobby. I've made over a dozen games with it, most of them I threw away after they got boring or I hit a roadblock that I couldn't overcome without rewriting a huge portion of TGE.

My point is that until Torque's API improves significantly, making changes to Torque is difficult and beyond the skill level of most Torque users.

As long as you are willing to adjust your game design to make it align with Torque's capabilities then you will have very little difficulty using it and making fun games.

If you deviate, chances are you're going to get in over your head.

All I want is a little truth in advertising, and no, I don't want my money back. I would prefer it if Garage Games would simply improve TGE's API so that everyone will benefit.

I'm not here to say bad things about Garage Games... I'm hoping eventually they'll stand up and listen to what we've been saying for years.

For the most part you cannot make an innovative game without doing a whole lot of work in the engine, yet the only way Indies will stand above the crowd is if they innovate. Torque, due to it's lack of a good API stands in the way of innovation. You end up spending most of your time just getting things to work and spend less time innovating new things.

It's time GG starts trying to raise the bar and improves their API and make Torque easier to use.

The Indie game development community benefits from Garage Games in many ways, but right now Torque is a detriment and a hindrance.

It's damning Indie game developers to creating cliche games and hurting the Indie game development community as a whole.

I'm sorry for saying that as it's probably going to hurt some feelings, but it's the truth and sometimes the truth hurts... it's like being an alcoholic... first you have to admit that there is a problem, then you can start addressing the problem.

Also, I didn't meant to hijack yet another thread... I tried to keep it brief but I'm very passionate about Indies and Indie Game Devlopment and I hate to see yet another person make an uninformed decision, only to hear him complaining about how difficult things are a month or two later, followed up by yet another flame war by a bunch of parrots saying "start smaller" or "Making games is supposed to be difficult."

It doesn't have to be this way and with a bit of refactoring, TGE can be fixed to have a fantastic API, and then we can start innovating more. It can be improved without significant changes, and the internals themselves are actually fantastic and worth keeping.

Until then, I'll just stick with Zen Engine and keep giving it away for free...

[edit]took out a bit that was a little over the top[/edit]

#11 I think I need to throw my own 2 cents in here...

@Tony: I believe you saw some tech I demo'ed at IMGDC that is not at all standard in RPG's now for talking with NPC's. I can state positively that the only code changed relating to this was to give TGEA ODBC support for accessing the database. As well, the inventory system is all script calls, also relying on that one ODBC code snippet, and that also goes for a number of other things.

But Tony also has a point about being a strong C++ programmer if you want to do things so different that you'll run into code that needs to change. I'm not a "professional" coder, though I can work with the engine on a limited number of tasks, but he's correct in that you'll have to delve deep and long to learn the intricacies of the engine to do some of the things that you may want.

However, TGE/A is not an API, and does not claim to be. It is an engine that originally was used for FPS games and later adapted to be more general-purpose, and from that stems some limitations that you will need to get around (such as ripping acceleration physics out of running to put in variable-based speeds, like an RPG has).

Tony's done a lot of good work (both with technology and with the indie community in a broader sense), and does feel very passionately about his opinions, and can't be faulted for that, but I did want to just balance things out by saying that most gameplay can be done via script. If you're creative enough, you might be able to get almost all of it, but I can't say 100% if you mean to customize anything- but this goes for any game at all, not just RPG's.

#12 @Ted - Nicely put and thank you for the balance.

You're right, it's not an API, which is why it's so difficult to use... if someone would take the time to turn it into a good API then Torque users would be significantly happier.

GG doesn't actively claim it is not an API either and it's discouraging to see complaints from decent programmers trying to use it as if it were an API.

Turning TGE into a great API would not be a very easy task and would take many man months of work, but I strongly feel that this will make GG's customers more successful. Of course, a bad API would be worse than where we're sitting right now, so there's a bit of risk involved... possibly coming up with a way to mitigate that risk might bring it down to an acceptable level.

Success breeds success and more successful customers means more success for GG and Indies in general.

#13 True, I think GG could probably put a small "this is not an API"-like blurb where prospective buyers can see it. I was thinking that the direction towards modularity (Torque 2.0) might help with that, though it seems a long ways off.

#14 @Jhen Zue
The simple answer is YES, you can make an RPG with Torque.

But if you.... I just want to .... I'm trying to .... you should jus.... Ahh forget it, Tony is squawking up this forum louder than my parrot ever could. (yes, I have a parrot)

@Tony (sarcasm intended =P)
Maybe you should read your own article. Here, I'll help squawk it up a little. Zen Sucks!!

Torque is an "ENGINE", not a weak-a$$ drag-n-drop, plug-n-play, pump-n-dump software program. It includes the "source code" for a reason. Duh, you will probably need to know C++ if you want to modify the engine beyond its current scope. Jhen Zue said he had a few programmers on hand.

If you don't know your own boundaries, the world is going to chew you up and spit you out. If you never programmed in C++ (I don't mean Hello World), then you should look for a Drag-N-Drop program and NOT consider yourself a Game Programmer and come over here buying Torque expecting it to do everything under the sun.

Torque is a PERFECT engine to make a game of ANY genre.

Game Programming IMHO requires a lot of education. A "TRUE" game programmer for example understands what a Cross Product or Dot Product is and how they are used/applied. They understand the large amount of Algebra, Geometry, and Calculus that is factored into game programming. So yes, they are actually educated in mathematics and physics, on top of spending years coding in C++ or other languages. That is a true game programmer. If you are a HACK Game Programmer Wannabe, then don't expect too much in your short, frustrating game programming career. Go back to plug-n-play, drag-n-drop (i.e. Tony).

#15 One other thing, GG does help guide people in the right direction. The problem is most people are arrogant and think they know more than they really do. i.e. Biting off more than you can chew.

Let me help you guys out, go to http://www.garagegames.com (yes, the homepage)

Look at all the pretty colorful pictures on the front page, they are labeled NEW, EXPERIENCED, COMMERCIAL, and EDUCATOR.

See the big reddish arrow pointing to them stating, "Need help choosing a Torque engine?".

Now read the descriptions, and God forbid, actually click on them.

If you click on "NEW", there is a blurb stating this:
"If you are new to game development or have little programming experience, but want to create games, GarageGames has two products for you. Both have easy-to-use interfaces that make game creation simple. Drag 'n' drop editors coupled with simple scripting help you make quick 2D games in no time."

The problem is that most Noobs don't even know what an API is, let alone know how to use one. So it really wouldn't do much good for GG to put API or NON-API all over their site. I think they did a pretty good job of pointing people in the right direction.

It all comes back to what I said in my previous response.

#16 @Jhen Zou:

Personally, I feel that TGEA is a good base for an RPG. I've started with the base AFX/TGEA build, added the Yack Pack, added AStar pathfinding and AStar Guard, (and some other tweaks and changes), and feel I have a good capable and expandable base for making an RPG.

#17 Okay, let's keep it civil and professional folks. No need to get into an pissing contest as to what constitutes and engine or what it takes to be a game developer. I've seen some great projects in GameMaker with no GML and I've seen code-from-the-ground-up awesomeness as well.

The API/SDK view is one that has been around for a long time and would take some strict re-architechting of the Torque engines. It doesn't mean that we're not working towards a nicer, cleaner component-based solution, but as Ten notes, it is a long process.

I don't think Tony's point is to come in and fling poop around. Not that he doesn't enjoy a little rabble-rousing every now and again, but I don't think his purpose has ever really been to troll the engine or the community. He has long-standing problems with a large chunks of the engine and its development, as many of us do. Any engine team will complain about the warts, especially if they were responsible for them. Of course, marketing is all about utopias, but talking to Valve and id and Epic techs you'll get a lot of horror stories. If you've ever worked on a large project, you've probably got tons of your own.

So, be civil. Don't go throwing virtual weight around virtual space. Keep the signal ratio up above the noise.

#18 Yes Dad, I'll take my advanced toys and go play on another forum.

#19 @Trenton - You really should know who you are talking to before making a post like that.

You can make an API that is flexible enough and easy enough to use that you're not required to modify the source code simply to get your game to do what you want.

Hindsight is 20/20 but I wish GG would've started Torque 2 a few years ago... it's really what I expected out of TSE.... I'm just hoping that T2 doesn't become a disappointment like TSE.

But that's water under the bridge.

I'll tell ya what... I'll make my own game engine the way I think a game engine / API should be written and we can compare notes and see which one is easier to use and more flexible. I'll include the source code, but you shouldn't need it.

Sure, it'll take me a couple of years to write, but it's a good thing I started 18 months ago, right?

Lets make it a friendly competition or something... I have no hard feelings against GG and I think they have some fantastic programmers and an excellent community.

Lets see how quickly we can ramp up... the competition starts when Torque 2 goes gold.

The winning engine will be decided by the success of the games created with Torque 2 or Zen Engine, but only games that were started coding after the official gold release of Torque 2 and released within a year after the competition began will qualify. The judging will be six months later to give the games a decent chance to show whether they're successful or not.

Lets see which engine can have the most games that get good reviews, sell at least 1000 copies and get at least a little publicity from the media.

The loser treats the winner's development team to a round of drinks at some mutually acceptable location (like a conference or something) and if there's no clear cut winner than we treat each other.

No matter the winner, Indies in general will be the winners, right?

What say ye Garage Games? Up for a challenge?

#20

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@Trenton - You really should know who you are talking to before making a post like that.

You obviously haven't changed since whenever it was you were hanging around on GarageGames IRC, having issues with streaming lightmaps between zones and upon getting either suggestions or people trying to motivate you by telling you it has been done before, you state the same as above to Trenton, or that Torque sucks.