IRC Hour Discussion Thread
by Michael Perry · in General Discussion · 09/08/2008 (4:10 pm) · 45 replies
IRC Hour Discussion Thread
What It Is: IRC Hour is a chance for the community to have real-time talks with myself and our site admin, David Montgomery-Blake. The subject of these talks is to discuss official docs, tutorials, and possible community contribution. We will be using the GarageGames IRC channel hosted by MaxGaming OnLine.
What It Isn't: Debugging other people's code, marathon one-on-one help sessions, discussing the future of GG or Torque Engines, soap-box rants, etc.
Organization: Each session will focus on specific technology: TGB and TX will share one session, TGE and TGEA will share another. To maintain order, David and I will come up with leading questions that will determine the topics for each session. Due to the nature of IRC, patience and civility will be required to maintain order and convey everyone's thoughts.
When: Each session will happen on Thursday, at 3:00 pm (PST). To avoid complete chaos and lacking time for all the possible issues, we are going to have 2 IRC Hours a month.
- TGB/TX - 2nd week of the month.
- TGE/A - 3rd week of the month.
If the concept proves popular and attendance increases, we may split TGB and TX up into their own times. The first TGB/TX IRC Hour will happen on Sept. 11, and the first TGE/A will be on Sept. 18.
Purpose: Primarily, this will be another great source of feedback that can be used to improve documentation. Bonus benefits include: getting help with an official tutorial, venting directly to an employee about the state of the docs and tutorials, become a part of an official process in GG, and so on.
We look forward to seeing everyone in the GarageGames Channel (hosted by MaxGaming OnLine)
IRC Hour Logs
9/11/2008 TGB/TX-
9/18/2008 TGE/TGEA(TGEA on Mac announcement)
About the author
Programmer.
#2
09/15/2008 (2:33 pm)
Thanks Michael, I usually just read the "unread" posts, and this one had fallen of the list last week...
#3
OK. So far, I've gathered that everyone wants to know what the function does, what each parameter is supposed to be (type and purpose), and an example of how to use it. This includes ConsoleMethods, ConsoleFunctions, and pre-existing console variables. Does that pretty much sum up the script documentation everyone is looking for? Or is there more?
09/15/2008 (2:33 pm)
@Scott - Funny you should say that. We (David and I) had an agenda which got thrown out the window. One of the topics was:Quote:What do you think are the major holes in script documentation?Almost always it comes down to reference documentation.
function foo(%param1, %param2, ...);
OK. So far, I've gathered that everyone wants to know what the function does, what each parameter is supposed to be (type and purpose), and an example of how to use it. This includes ConsoleMethods, ConsoleFunctions, and pre-existing console variables. Does that pretty much sum up the script documentation everyone is looking for? Or is there more?
#4
09/15/2008 (2:41 pm)
People were evil, stomping on our agenda!
#5
Knowing which version of TGB the documenation applies to would be useful... cause I know there are some folks stuck at older versions.
So my suggestion would be:
Keep the reference documentation up to date with the current version.
Any old version specific differences kept at a linked location.
(Which should mean updating the reference docs *before* or at the *same time* as a release)
This way there's no confusion about which version the document applies to.
Also,
I keep finding myself looking here:
http://tdn.garagegames.com/wiki/Torque_2D/Reference_Guide
mainly because its all in one searchable location (ctrl-f is my friend).
09/15/2008 (2:44 pm)
Additionally, Knowing which version of TGB the documenation applies to would be useful... cause I know there are some folks stuck at older versions.
So my suggestion would be:
Keep the reference documentation up to date with the current version.
Any old version specific differences kept at a linked location.
(Which should mean updating the reference docs *before* or at the *same time* as a release)
This way there's no confusion about which version the document applies to.
Also,
I keep finding myself looking here:
http://tdn.garagegames.com/wiki/Torque_2D/Reference_Guide
mainly because its all in one searchable location (ctrl-f is my friend).
#6
First off, I think is a fantastic idea, and hope to see it repeated forever :)
And then, some comments about the chat contents:
I was shocked by reading that you guys at GG thought about wiping out TDN. I know TDN is really controversial here, but makes me sad that such an incredible effort from many community members, and so much time, resulted diminished at your eyes, due to rants that in the end, are more related with a deep and old documentation problem, than with the media in which it is supported.
Not only some TDN pages are like the bible, but also the wiki is a wonderful repo now, not just for structured general documentation, but as a place for cool ideas, bringing community independency to the table.
I think it was so obvious that TDN was not the solution to the docs problem, that by not taking it as that from the begining, I discovered an incredible versatile tool. It is maybe that I was the only one thinking like that?
As a last comment about this topic I would say that, if wasnt for TDN the RTS-SK Documentation would be... zero. Here is an ilustration of the RTS docs without TDN:
"And I dont mean no money like "I work at walmart and make no money"
" ... I mean zero dollars, nothing!"
Now, one more constructive criticism (Yep, sorry there is more).
I think too much time was invested debating this:
I liked to read Deborah saying "we dont want lazy people here", and that should be the end of it. If you guys want feedback about the docs, this is the most important you will ever get: Write docs for the people who will actually read it. Anything else is a nonsense (ok, maybe is too hard, Im open to heard different thoughts).
Thanks for reading anyway :)
09/15/2008 (10:36 pm)
Ok, after reading the first IRC Hour log, I would like to comment my thoughts.First off, I think is a fantastic idea, and hope to see it repeated forever :)
And then, some comments about the chat contents:
I was shocked by reading that you guys at GG thought about wiping out TDN. I know TDN is really controversial here, but makes me sad that such an incredible effort from many community members, and so much time, resulted diminished at your eyes, due to rants that in the end, are more related with a deep and old documentation problem, than with the media in which it is supported.
Not only some TDN pages are like the bible, but also the wiki is a wonderful repo now, not just for structured general documentation, but as a place for cool ideas, bringing community independency to the table.
I think it was so obvious that TDN was not the solution to the docs problem, that by not taking it as that from the begining, I discovered an incredible versatile tool. It is maybe that I was the only one thinking like that?
As a last comment about this topic I would say that, if wasnt for TDN the RTS-SK Documentation would be... zero. Here is an ilustration of the RTS docs without TDN:
" ... I mean zero dollars, nothing!"
Now, one more constructive criticism (Yep, sorry there is more).
I think too much time was invested debating this:
Quote:"people who doesnt know how to turnOn their PCs came here and doesnt read the docs... how we can make them read the docs?"
I liked to read Deborah saying "we dont want lazy people here", and that should be the end of it. If you guys want feedback about the docs, this is the most important you will ever get: Write docs for the people who will actually read it. Anything else is a nonsense (ok, maybe is too hard, Im open to heard different thoughts).
Thanks for reading anyway :)
#7
I was hoping those that participated (or read the log) would notice one small, yet critical point: the person that is in charge of documentation (ahem) has control of TDN. If no one has noticed, some recent edits were made by said person. This includes the new Meta entry: Official Documentation Submission Guidelines.
The first attempt at streamlining community documentation into official docs has been put into effect. Don't worry, I'm not letting TDN go anywhere for the time being. I see how valuable it is, but it needs a major face lift. I want the other engines to resemble the TGB section of TDN.
On your other point, I don't think anyone seriously suggest that we try and get "lazy people" or those not interested involved in reading and submitting docs. What's the point? People using the engine and using the docs are our targets. I'm not in marketing...I don't have the skills or the desire, so you won't see me going too far out of my way to shove my docs down the throats of those that don't want them =)
Thanks for the constructive criticism. Your points are well made, and I just wanted to let you know I agree with them.
09/16/2008 (8:36 am)
@Novack - Nice use of quotes and pictures =)I was hoping those that participated (or read the log) would notice one small, yet critical point: the person that is in charge of documentation (ahem) has control of TDN. If no one has noticed, some recent edits were made by said person. This includes the new Meta entry: Official Documentation Submission Guidelines.
The first attempt at streamlining community documentation into official docs has been put into effect. Don't worry, I'm not letting TDN go anywhere for the time being. I see how valuable it is, but it needs a major face lift. I want the other engines to resemble the TGB section of TDN.
On your other point, I don't think anyone seriously suggest that we try and get "lazy people" or those not interested involved in reading and submitting docs. What's the point? People using the engine and using the docs are our targets. I'm not in marketing...I don't have the skills or the desire, so you won't see me going too far out of my way to shove my docs down the throats of those that don't want them =)
Thanks for the constructive criticism. Your points are well made, and I just wanted to let you know I agree with them.
#8
Now, since not only you are actively working on TDN (I didnt saw it until read the log, as Im not a TGB user), but also seems like you are in charge of the wiki (and also that of the face lift, and etc, etc), take my little rant, and just forget it.
Or!! take it as a warning. All and any attemps against the TDN security will be considered a hostile movement, and proper countermeasures will be activated. In fact, a preemtive attack is going there right now. In the meanwhile we are forging laws of people control and surveilance, just in case you decide to infiltrate our...
Ok.
On the second matter, you misunderstood what I meant to write, or my crippled english got in the way. My point was just about not wasting more time debating such topic on the IRC, as it seemed like a big part of the chat was around "Jpgs instead of text?".
You seemed to agree in all anyway, so probably the whole thing was about semantics, in which case I apologize, but frankly wanted to be sure.
Edit: Waiting anxiously to attack you guys the next thursday.
09/16/2008 (9:10 am)
Hey Michael. Well, from the log I noticed you were working on TDN, not exactly that you controlled it.Now, since not only you are actively working on TDN (I didnt saw it until read the log, as Im not a TGB user), but also seems like you are in charge of the wiki (and also that of the face lift, and etc, etc), take my little rant, and just forget it.
Or!! take it as a warning. All and any attemps against the TDN security will be considered a hostile movement, and proper countermeasures will be activated. In fact, a preemtive attack is going there right now. In the meanwhile we are forging laws of people control and surveilance, just in case you decide to infiltrate our...
Ok.
On the second matter, you misunderstood what I meant to write, or my crippled english got in the way. My point was just about not wasting more time debating such topic on the IRC, as it seemed like a big part of the chat was around "Jpgs instead of text?".
You seemed to agree in all anyway, so probably the whole thing was about semantics, in which case I apologize, but frankly wanted to be sure.
Edit: Waiting anxiously to attack you guys the next thursday.
#9
Before you ask: Her most commonly used phrase against me is "Nobody likes you..."
09/16/2008 (9:19 am)
@Novack - Look forward to your presence in IRC. Be warned not to war with me, though. Ask my fiancee, or one of my co-workers...the most common phrase used about me is "...takes it too far." Well, that's not the most common phrase used by Deborah, but you get the point.Before you ask: Her most commonly used phrase against me is "Nobody likes you..."
#11
09/16/2008 (11:56 am)
@Michael Perry - Since your actively working on TDN, does that mean submissions shoud be directly sent to you? Once I get the TGEA lighting sorted out, I was going to make a TGE/TGEA flashlight tutorial. I wouldn't want any TDN additions to halt your prgress. Great work on the docs so far!
#12
If you want to write your article without my input, without my advertisement, basically without any involvement from me or anything official docs, then you do not need to contact me.
If you want your tutorial to get some exposure, and possible be included in the official docs, read through this article: Official Documentation Submission Guidelines
09/16/2008 (11:58 am)
@Britt - Thanks for the compliment =)If you want to write your article without my input, without my advertisement, basically without any involvement from me or anything official docs, then you do not need to contact me.
If you want your tutorial to get some exposure, and possible be included in the official docs, read through this article: Official Documentation Submission Guidelines
#13
IRC Hour will be at 5pm PST tomorrow (9/18/2008). This really sucks for me since I usually get out of work at 5:00, and have to ride the bus which takes another 30min. However, I want to make this convenient for all of you for this special edition of IRC Hour.
Hope this helps everyone out!
09/17/2008 (8:55 am)
BIG CHANGE!!!IRC Hour will be at 5pm PST tomorrow (9/18/2008). This really sucks for me since I usually get out of work at 5:00, and have to ride the bus which takes another 30min. However, I want to make this convenient for all of you for this special edition of IRC Hour.
Hope this helps everyone out!
#14
09/17/2008 (9:14 am)
I'll wander home, start packing, and then jump on before rehearsal. I'll have to drop out early again, though since it starts at 7 and I have to be there to unlock the building for actors.
#15
09/17/2008 (9:38 am)
Not a problem David. This change in schedule is kind of short notice, and I'm sorry about that. I think once I break the news, though, we won't be talking much documentation =)
#16
09/17/2008 (10:30 am)
'tis true, 'tis true! And I really wish I could be there to hear the hubub from the community the whole time (and most likely extra!).
#17
Im at GMT-3, so for me the IRC hour would be at 10PM.
Tomorrow is my mother's birthday, so by then I'll be at the middle of the dinner... Im in trouble.
Edit: Could someone please confirm to me if you are at summer time, meaning its PST = GMT-7 instead of GMT-8
09/17/2008 (11:27 am)
5 PM PST is 1 AM GMT right? Im at GMT-3, so for me the IRC hour would be at 10PM.
Tomorrow is my mother's birthday, so by then I'll be at the middle of the dinner... Im in trouble.
Edit: Could someone please confirm to me if you are at summer time, meaning its PST = GMT-7 instead of GMT-8
#18
Not 5 PST, 5 EST, and yes we are currently in Daylight savings time. So it's a 4 hour adjustment for you putting it at 9 PM.
09/17/2008 (11:39 am)
@NovackNot 5 PST, 5 EST, and yes we are currently in Daylight savings time. So it's a 4 hour adjustment for you putting it at 9 PM.
#19
I currently live in PST. I will be starting IRC at 5:00pm (PST). So, I thought GMT is -8:00.
09/17/2008 (11:39 am)
Oy....I messed up!I currently live in PST. I will be starting IRC at 5:00pm (PST). So, I thought GMT is -8:00.
#20
09/17/2008 (11:45 am)
Thanks Guys. I'll do my best, if dont catch you there, I'll read the log :) 
Employee Michael Perry
ZombieShortbus