Intrest in a GG sponsored MMOKit.
by Flybynight Studios · in Torque Game Engine · 08/26/2008 (9:46 am) · 146 replies
I want to thank you guys for stepping up in the last thread thanks, appreciate the clarifications. I think it is clear that a lot of folks, myself included are very interested in seeing a kit that is actually viable for using in a production environment. The 2 kits that have been attempted outside of the GG domain had pros and cons in their own right but as inevitably happens in the indie world, the original creators either 'A' lose intrest or 'B' "take their toys and go home". (IE lock down all the hard work that people donate to the project and walk away).
In my opinion, for what it's worth, a GG sponsored MMOKit would be a fantastic addition to the GG family of products because it would promote a stable and controlled environment for indies to casually build their MMO projects and know that as long as GG is around they can always come back to their work. GG benefits be providing all of their licensed product holders access to any tools they need and colateral sales for products used in these ventures like model kits and developer tools goes up because develoeprs have the confidence in GG that they may not have in other groups.
I am posting this because it was mentioned in the previous thread that GG might be intrested in sponsoring something like this if there was intrest in the community. I dare say there -is- intrest in the community and I know that some people have already done some fantastic work in a TGEA fork of an MMOKit.
My hope is that by centering an MMOKit around GG we can bring developers together in their work rather than segment the community and lose hundreds and thousands of hours of work everytime a new kit comes and goes.
I would invite all of the other people intrested in such a kit to please post their thoughts here and see if there is enough intrest to sway GG into giving us a safer development environment here at the GG site.
My thanks in advance for everyones time in reading and responding to this.
In my opinion, for what it's worth, a GG sponsored MMOKit would be a fantastic addition to the GG family of products because it would promote a stable and controlled environment for indies to casually build their MMO projects and know that as long as GG is around they can always come back to their work. GG benefits be providing all of their licensed product holders access to any tools they need and colateral sales for products used in these ventures like model kits and developer tools goes up because develoeprs have the confidence in GG that they may not have in other groups.
I am posting this because it was mentioned in the previous thread that GG might be intrested in sponsoring something like this if there was intrest in the community. I dare say there -is- intrest in the community and I know that some people have already done some fantastic work in a TGEA fork of an MMOKit.
My hope is that by centering an MMOKit around GG we can bring developers together in their work rather than segment the community and lose hundreds and thousands of hours of work everytime a new kit comes and goes.
I would invite all of the other people intrested in such a kit to please post their thoughts here and see if there is enough intrest to sway GG into giving us a safer development environment here at the GG site.
My thanks in advance for everyones time in reading and responding to this.
#62
The primary point I was trying to make was that it isn't quite as simple as it sounds on the surface.
09/03/2008 (12:06 pm)
Also a valid approach =) When the time comes I am sure that our webdevs will cook up something slick (I've done webdev but not a lot of security oriented webdev).The primary point I was trying to make was that it isn't quite as simple as it sounds on the surface.
#63
09/03/2008 (12:46 pm)
Or, since everyone has a numeric ID and products seem to as well, to allow a user id and product id in put on a querystring, return true or false. Use lookups inside the query to do the rest.
#64
You could possibly have a unique token that only shows up on your profile page and is only valid for 5 minutes at a time that you could cut/paste into a form on a 3rd party site (similar to what Joseph suggested except that it automatically updates every time you look at your account page). We already do something like this for the downloads you see on your Account page.
Another approach is something like we did with TDN where your website redirects the user to GG.com which authenticates you (and/or logs you in) and then redirects you back to the original site with the temporary authentication token in the the page header.
09/03/2008 (1:02 pm)
I'm not sure I follow you Dave? I can "look up" your numeric id by clicking on your name in this thread (62635 btw). How is that more secure than a username?You could possibly have a unique token that only shows up on your profile page and is only valid for 5 minutes at a time that you could cut/paste into a form on a 3rd party site (similar to what Joseph suggested except that it automatically updates every time you look at your account page). We already do something like this for the downloads you see on your Account page.
Another approach is something like we did with TDN where your website redirects the user to GG.com which authenticates you (and/or logs you in) and then redirects you back to the original site with the temporary authentication token in the the page header.
#65
Honestly, I think the only real thing GG should do is the whole third party allowable authentication, which would be huge. IMO all the other aspects should be handled by the community here, since this would be a community project. As some of the GG employees have posted it wouldn't really be feasible for GG to have a more direct role in this.
Has anyone here ever used GModForge? It's gone now, but it used to be a great place to host mods for Garry's Mod, and gave you a nice setup similar to SourceForge. Something like that for Torque with the authentication via GG.com would be great.
09/03/2008 (2:25 pm)
@Matt, I believe Dave is talking about something similar to the TDN setup.Honestly, I think the only real thing GG should do is the whole third party allowable authentication, which would be huge. IMO all the other aspects should be handled by the community here, since this would be a community project. As some of the GG employees have posted it wouldn't really be feasible for GG to have a more direct role in this.
Has anyone here ever used GModForge? It's gone now, but it used to be a great place to host mods for Garry's Mod, and gave you a nice setup similar to SourceForge. Something like that for Torque with the authentication via GG.com would be great.
#66
Yes Warhammer online may have cost $100mil to develop. What you forget to add into the mix is that $100mil includes, hardware costs (network structure, server farm, building costs), game content (artwork, models, GUI's, etc...), wages (developers, contractors, management, etc...), GameWorkshop Licensing agreement for use of WarHammer branding, Licensing for software (client, server, development, etc...), marketing, and I could go on.
Now onto the topic in question again. ;)
If you want out of the box MMO platform, you can buy the licence from between $25k to $1mil (some even have royalities upto 10% depending of purchase plans). Now some will include the basics (Chat/trade system, Database, Patch system, Server/Network system, basic set of tools and game), others have everything (cleint game, server software (database, payment, patching login, etc...), game content (complete world, models, artwork, etc...), full development support and helpdesk).
What we are trying to arrange is a base kit which we can work from, most of us ether have TGE or TGEA, which provides us with a base for Server and Client side app's.
Most of us are not asking to develop a complete package. What is asked for is a kit to provide the ground work for the client side/server interface, server database interface, and maybe a basic MMORPG core (something simular to a cutdown version of Prairie Games "Minions of Mirth") to work from.
Yes there have been a couple of tries at making a MMOkit in the past, but as said before in above posts, these have disappeared, which is a shame.
I'd like to ask Prairie Games what their thoughts on this topic is? And to know how Prairie Games would feel about the idea of being asked to be part of of this project? To me they would seem to be the best to provide constructive input into this project.
Now I'm no programming genius, but I do know a bit, and have a good understanding of how things should interact together and what is required to make thing work correctly. In the past I have talked with a few of the MMO development companies and teams out there over the years trying to see what was possible. And I can see with what we have available within the GG community.
What is required is offical ruling on GG's EULA for this project, the reason I say this is I personally feel that there are a few that want to know their not going to waste time developing the the MMOkit to find at the last minute there's a problem with the EULA, we need to have the EULA related to this project set down now before anything goes to far. Sorry to pick on you Michael Perry, but you did bring up a interesting point.
Michael can you please ask for a answer from Licensing on what has been talked about in this topic before things get too far into the project.
Josh Ritter and Lara Engebretson (ex-Prairie Games) hopefully you both have been reading this topic with interest. Could you please provide your insight into this project, and if you'd know if the new owners of Prairie Games would possibly be interested in adding to it with what you have already learnt from making "Minions of Mirth". I know this is going to be a bit of a grey area, due to licencing and agreements you may already have in place with GG, but the question needs to be ask.
09/03/2008 (2:57 pm)
@ Neill Silva Yes Warhammer online may have cost $100mil to develop. What you forget to add into the mix is that $100mil includes, hardware costs (network structure, server farm, building costs), game content (artwork, models, GUI's, etc...), wages (developers, contractors, management, etc...), GameWorkshop Licensing agreement for use of WarHammer branding, Licensing for software (client, server, development, etc...), marketing, and I could go on.
Now onto the topic in question again. ;)
If you want out of the box MMO platform, you can buy the licence from between $25k to $1mil (some even have royalities upto 10% depending of purchase plans). Now some will include the basics (Chat/trade system, Database, Patch system, Server/Network system, basic set of tools and game), others have everything (cleint game, server software (database, payment, patching login, etc...), game content (complete world, models, artwork, etc...), full development support and helpdesk).
What we are trying to arrange is a base kit which we can work from, most of us ether have TGE or TGEA, which provides us with a base for Server and Client side app's.
Most of us are not asking to develop a complete package. What is asked for is a kit to provide the ground work for the client side/server interface, server database interface, and maybe a basic MMORPG core (something simular to a cutdown version of Prairie Games "Minions of Mirth") to work from.
Yes there have been a couple of tries at making a MMOkit in the past, but as said before in above posts, these have disappeared, which is a shame.
I'd like to ask Prairie Games what their thoughts on this topic is? And to know how Prairie Games would feel about the idea of being asked to be part of of this project? To me they would seem to be the best to provide constructive input into this project.
Now I'm no programming genius, but I do know a bit, and have a good understanding of how things should interact together and what is required to make thing work correctly. In the past I have talked with a few of the MMO development companies and teams out there over the years trying to see what was possible. And I can see with what we have available within the GG community.
What is required is offical ruling on GG's EULA for this project, the reason I say this is I personally feel that there are a few that want to know their not going to waste time developing the the MMOkit to find at the last minute there's a problem with the EULA, we need to have the EULA related to this project set down now before anything goes to far. Sorry to pick on you Michael Perry, but you did bring up a interesting point.
Quote:I just double checked with those who know the licensing a little better than myself. Under the EULA, you would be able to work on this MMO kit project in private, but to release it publicly (free or for profit) you would need the permission of GarageGames. This adheres to the EULA considering the kit is not an actual game.
Michael can you please ask for a answer from Licensing on what has been talked about in this topic before things get too far into the project.
Josh Ritter and Lara Engebretson (ex-Prairie Games) hopefully you both have been reading this topic with interest. Could you please provide your insight into this project, and if you'd know if the new owners of Prairie Games would possibly be interested in adding to it with what you have already learnt from making "Minions of Mirth". I know this is going to be a bit of a grey area, due to licencing and agreements you may already have in place with GG, but the question needs to be ask.
#68
09/03/2008 (3:30 pm)
I just want to reiterate that you have our blessing to *start* (technically you didn't need it) but you will still need to work with us when it comes time to release it.Quote:
We are also willing to grant you a license to release it to the public (for free or profit) if it meets our quality standards (code, features, *and* support) but that is a decision that necessarily has to wait until you have results.
#69
09/03/2008 (3:39 pm)
@Joseph, yep, GModForge used GForge. Although I think there's some debate as to whether it's as good as Trac or other similar software.
#70
Michael has stated he's not 100% sure!
And Matt hasn't said anything on the EULA side of things in great detail, only that GG would like to see this project go forward and willing to grant a license.
We do have an EULA already for the client side and for the server side, what is required is the EULA terms for the other areas that MMO's have that would fall out side of the current TGE/A EULA agreement. Now I'm no Lawer and have no idea which and what would fall outside of the EULA we have with TGE/A, but I'm sure someone out there will.
As for the project itself, we'll need to start sorting the key things out like;
Database interaction (how the MMOkit would interface with MySQL, MS SQL, etc...)
Client login
Client version checking and updating
Networking (between servers(database, patch, login, chat, etc...), and client/server)
I'm not nit-picking just trying to get things ironed out before anyone gets things going to far only to findout something that has been developed falls out side the EULA and kills the project after months/years on time and effort. We do need to know the extact details of EULA requirements to make an MMOkit, sorry but there would be no other option. I personally wouldn't want to ask anyone to start a project like this without knowing the full details of what is covered and not covered be the EULA. This is to protect both the community and GG.
09/03/2008 (4:16 pm)
@ Joseph Michael has stated he's not 100% sure!
Quote: Michael Perry;
Under the EULA, you would be able to work on this MMO kit project in private, but to release it publicly (free or for profit) you would need the permission of GarageGames. This adheres to the EULA considering the kit is not an actual game.
And Matt hasn't said anything on the EULA side of things in great detail, only that GG would like to see this project go forward and willing to grant a license.
Quote:Matt Fairfax
We are also willing to grant you a license to release it to the public (for free or profit) if it meets our quality standards (code, features, *and* support) but that is a decision that necessarily has to wait until you have results.
We do have an EULA already for the client side and for the server side, what is required is the EULA terms for the other areas that MMO's have that would fall out side of the current TGE/A EULA agreement. Now I'm no Lawer and have no idea which and what would fall outside of the EULA we have with TGE/A, but I'm sure someone out there will.
As for the project itself, we'll need to start sorting the key things out like;
Database interaction (how the MMOkit would interface with MySQL, MS SQL, etc...)
Client login
Client version checking and updating
Networking (between servers(database, patch, login, chat, etc...), and client/server)
I'm not nit-picking just trying to get things ironed out before anyone gets things going to far only to findout something that has been developed falls out side the EULA and kills the project after months/years on time and effort. We do need to know the extact details of EULA requirements to make an MMOkit, sorry but there would be no other option. I personally wouldn't want to ask anyone to start a project like this without knowing the full details of what is covered and not covered be the EULA. This is to protect both the community and GG.
#72
Oh an I've amended my second to last post.
Forgot both Josh and Lara are no longer with Prairie Games.
Now this could be good if we were able to talk GG into letting us the community have access to these two key MMO developers! ;)
09/03/2008 (5:09 pm)
NP Joseph! :)Oh an I've amended my second to last post.
Quote:Josh Ritter and Lara Engebretson (ex-Prairie Games) hopefully you both have been reading this topic with interest. Could you please provide your insight into this project, and if you'd know if the new owners of Prairie Games would possibly be interested in adding to it with what you have already learnt from making "Minions of Mirth". I know this is going to be a bit of a grey area, due to licencing and agreements you may already have in place with GG, but the question needs to be ask.
Forgot both Josh and Lara are no longer with Prairie Games.
Now this could be good if we were able to talk GG into letting us the community have access to these two key MMO developers! ;)
#73
For anyone that wishes to produce a starter kit they have to take steps, put together a viable product and produce a kit - which if it meets the standards, direction, features, support, etc that GG require then they may approve the kit for sale/download. Think of it as selling something to a company - you have to spend the effort, design and prototype something before you can get much discussion on whether they'd consider investing/buying it, this is a similar process.
One of the main things we are looking for from the thread is to gauge an opinion from GG on where we would stand on creating another MMOKit as there is one existing one already, Matt has answered that one to basically say that they'd love to see one if it met the standards required and that we may be able to gain some advice on the features, how to plan it out.... personally I'd find that a huge help.
The EULA really has little to do with any elements we'd develop (i.e. the MMO bits) as it's our code, just like anything you write for a game is your code and therefore your choice if you give, sell, etc any torquescript code. So we've got all the answers we need on the licensing side of things and approach.
The next step needs to turn to people offering to work on the project and commit their time... I'd suggest a basic process such as:
Define
- Team Building - get together a group to start in depth discussions on features, design, etc.
- Ideas & Fact Finding - What actually would the kit include? what would help? how might we approach?
- Scope Definition - what's the goal of this project? what do we need to know?
- Solution outline
- Project Proposal to discuss and gain feedback on from GG if possible.
Design
Document
- feature list,
- Approach,
- Possible technologies (C++, Python, etc).
- Standards (documentation, SVN/CVS, Forums, hosting, etc).
- Open a dialogue with GG to discuss, get their opinions, thoughts on technologies, features, etc.
Develop
- Coding
- Testing
- Review solution with GG - quality, features, etc.
Deliver
- Documentation
- Support
- Get product approved and released with GG
- Release - YAY
09/03/2008 (5:43 pm)
Pierre - The EULA as it stands doesn't allow anyone to create and sell a starter kit for TGE/TGEA:Quote:
(c) Licensee may not: (i) create any derivative works of the Engine, including but not limited to translations, localizations, starter kits, technology add-ons, or game making software other than Games;
For anyone that wishes to produce a starter kit they have to take steps, put together a viable product and produce a kit - which if it meets the standards, direction, features, support, etc that GG require then they may approve the kit for sale/download. Think of it as selling something to a company - you have to spend the effort, design and prototype something before you can get much discussion on whether they'd consider investing/buying it, this is a similar process.
One of the main things we are looking for from the thread is to gauge an opinion from GG on where we would stand on creating another MMOKit as there is one existing one already, Matt has answered that one to basically say that they'd love to see one if it met the standards required and that we may be able to gain some advice on the features, how to plan it out.... personally I'd find that a huge help.
The EULA really has little to do with any elements we'd develop (i.e. the MMO bits) as it's our code, just like anything you write for a game is your code and therefore your choice if you give, sell, etc any torquescript code. So we've got all the answers we need on the licensing side of things and approach.
The next step needs to turn to people offering to work on the project and commit their time... I'd suggest a basic process such as:
Define
- Team Building - get together a group to start in depth discussions on features, design, etc.
- Ideas & Fact Finding - What actually would the kit include? what would help? how might we approach?
- Scope Definition - what's the goal of this project? what do we need to know?
- Solution outline
- Project Proposal to discuss and gain feedback on from GG if possible.
Design
Document
- feature list,
- Approach,
- Possible technologies (C++, Python, etc).
- Standards (documentation, SVN/CVS, Forums, hosting, etc).
- Open a dialogue with GG to discuss, get their opinions, thoughts on technologies, features, etc.
Develop
- Coding
- Testing
- Review solution with GG - quality, features, etc.
Deliver
- Documentation
- Support
- Get product approved and released with GG
- Release - YAY
#74
09/03/2008 (11:33 pm)
Andy is spot on =)
#75
09/04/2008 (10:19 am)
So I guess I'm unclear on the goals of this thing. Is the end goal to sell the kit on GG? Personally I think that's less useful than if GG could set up the authentication methods for something like a TorqueForge to be possible, and just have it on there as one of the free things. *shrug*
#76
09/04/2008 (3:18 pm)
Thanks Andy that's what I was trying to get sorted!
#77
The project may be a free entity such as Realm Wars (I'd love to hear from any guys involved in organising this to see how things worked and pitfalls they found with a community based project to see if there are learnings we can take from their experience).
Really it comes down the "Define" stage I described above to put on paper what the team would want to work on, first we need a team though.
09/04/2008 (4:30 pm)
Ross - there really aren't a defined set of goals right now other than a rather vague "Community built MMOKit", what the would actually contain is going to have to come out of a discussion amongst those willing to commit time to the project.The project may be a free entity such as Realm Wars (I'd love to hear from any guys involved in organising this to see how things worked and pitfalls they found with a community based project to see if there are learnings we can take from their experience).
Really it comes down the "Define" stage I described above to put on paper what the team would want to work on, first we need a team though.
#78
09/05/2008 (6:01 am)
While I was never directly involved with Realm Wars myself, I've seen it's biggest pitfall discussed around here several times. That pitfall was the fact that it was a community based project. Since anyone with a license could add code to the game it lead to a lot of bad code being written resulting in a buggy mess. Then someone would have to identify the bad code and revert the repo to get rid of it.
#79
Edit: You could also have a separate branch for possible stuff to be taken to the trunk, or just an area for people to explain changes they think should go into the trunk etc.
09/05/2008 (10:12 am)
@Scott, IMO that's an easy fix...don't allow commits from just anyone. If they want to check it out and change it on their local copy, that's dandy, but if they want to commit to the trunk, they have to demonstrate that they're not going to seriously muck things up.Edit: You could also have a separate branch for possible stuff to be taken to the trunk, or just an area for people to explain changes they think should go into the trunk etc.
#80
That would allow the trunk to stay stable while people experiment on their own branch
09/05/2008 (10:24 am)
Could even go one step further and only allow certain trusted members have their own branch and then they commit to that branch. Then if the code is stable enough a community moderator would merge the changes back into the trunk.That would allow the trunk to stay stable while people experiment on their own branch
Torque Owner Redacted