Intrest in a GG sponsored MMOKit.
by Flybynight Studios · in Torque Game Engine · 08/26/2008 (9:46 am) · 146 replies
I want to thank you guys for stepping up in the last thread thanks, appreciate the clarifications. I think it is clear that a lot of folks, myself included are very interested in seeing a kit that is actually viable for using in a production environment. The 2 kits that have been attempted outside of the GG domain had pros and cons in their own right but as inevitably happens in the indie world, the original creators either 'A' lose intrest or 'B' "take their toys and go home". (IE lock down all the hard work that people donate to the project and walk away).
In my opinion, for what it's worth, a GG sponsored MMOKit would be a fantastic addition to the GG family of products because it would promote a stable and controlled environment for indies to casually build their MMO projects and know that as long as GG is around they can always come back to their work. GG benefits be providing all of their licensed product holders access to any tools they need and colateral sales for products used in these ventures like model kits and developer tools goes up because develoeprs have the confidence in GG that they may not have in other groups.
I am posting this because it was mentioned in the previous thread that GG might be intrested in sponsoring something like this if there was intrest in the community. I dare say there -is- intrest in the community and I know that some people have already done some fantastic work in a TGEA fork of an MMOKit.
My hope is that by centering an MMOKit around GG we can bring developers together in their work rather than segment the community and lose hundreds and thousands of hours of work everytime a new kit comes and goes.
I would invite all of the other people intrested in such a kit to please post their thoughts here and see if there is enough intrest to sway GG into giving us a safer development environment here at the GG site.
My thanks in advance for everyones time in reading and responding to this.
In my opinion, for what it's worth, a GG sponsored MMOKit would be a fantastic addition to the GG family of products because it would promote a stable and controlled environment for indies to casually build their MMO projects and know that as long as GG is around they can always come back to their work. GG benefits be providing all of their licensed product holders access to any tools they need and colateral sales for products used in these ventures like model kits and developer tools goes up because develoeprs have the confidence in GG that they may not have in other groups.
I am posting this because it was mentioned in the previous thread that GG might be intrested in sponsoring something like this if there was intrest in the community. I dare say there -is- intrest in the community and I know that some people have already done some fantastic work in a TGEA fork of an MMOKit.
My hope is that by centering an MMOKit around GG we can bring developers together in their work rather than segment the community and lose hundreds and thousands of hours of work everytime a new kit comes and goes.
I would invite all of the other people intrested in such a kit to please post their thoughts here and see if there is enough intrest to sway GG into giving us a safer development environment here at the GG site.
My thanks in advance for everyones time in reading and responding to this.
#2
All MMOs have certain things in common - in game stuff like grouping, guild management, large persistent worlds, banking system, etc., plus background stuff like character storage, account creation/maintenance, server load management, etc.
A kit that combined all the standard back-end elements of an MMO into a cohesive, easy to setup system, with some minimal gameplay mechanics added on top would be a big seller I think. Base it on the TGEA engine, so large open landscapes would be possible, but have the terrain easily removable so people wanting space games could use it as well.
The GG kit is great for what it was designed to do... and that was to run Minions of Mirth. But as a standard starting point for generic MMO development, the kit is not so great. There are too many things hard coded in for MoM that are a pain to root out. If someone were to take the same kind of approach that PrairieGames took with MoM, but make things more generic from the ground up, that would be a worthwhile addition to the GarageGames shop.
08/26/2008 (11:10 am)
An "MMO Kit" does not have to be genre-specific, in fact it would be better if it was not.All MMOs have certain things in common - in game stuff like grouping, guild management, large persistent worlds, banking system, etc., plus background stuff like character storage, account creation/maintenance, server load management, etc.
A kit that combined all the standard back-end elements of an MMO into a cohesive, easy to setup system, with some minimal gameplay mechanics added on top would be a big seller I think. Base it on the TGEA engine, so large open landscapes would be possible, but have the terrain easily removable so people wanting space games could use it as well.
The GG kit is great for what it was designed to do... and that was to run Minions of Mirth. But as a standard starting point for generic MMO development, the kit is not so great. There are too many things hard coded in for MoM that are a pain to root out. If someone were to take the same kind of approach that PrairieGames took with MoM, but make things more generic from the ground up, that would be a worthwhile addition to the GarageGames shop.
#3
08/26/2008 (11:21 am)
Throw my name in the hat for interest :)
#4
A "kit" should never, and truely could never, be developed as an out of the box, "click here to build your dream MMO." A kit is merely a solid working foundation of resources piled into a single "build" of code that provides a foundation for developers to go in and create their worlds. Wether those worlds are in space, in medieval fantasy or the 9th cirlce of hell it really has no bearing on the kit.
What a GG kit -should- provide is a centralized foundation for developers to work tegether on and "merge" into their projects as they see fit. By doing this through the GG website rather than 3rd party sites we can always be asured that as long is Torque is around all of the hard work and creativity that is contributed by the MMOKit commnuity will be available to other future members of the community and -NOT- get lost forever when someone decides they don't want to work on the kit or provide it anymore.
By keeping kit development within GG it will always have a home and be open to more of the Torque community which is, hands down, the best indie development environment out there today. (And has been for years).
Things like this wont happen overnight here at GG but based on the responses to the other MMOKit thread I am hoping maybe GG is open to looking at this option a little closer and give us an oportunity to continue some of the hard work of the past MMOKit developers who have moved on due to the current issues surrounding the different kits.
Here is hoping.
08/26/2008 (11:22 am)
Just to clarify because Brit asked a legitimate question (And Rodney gave an excellent answer but I should've been clearer in my original post) regarding an MMOKit for Torque.A "kit" should never, and truely could never, be developed as an out of the box, "click here to build your dream MMO." A kit is merely a solid working foundation of resources piled into a single "build" of code that provides a foundation for developers to go in and create their worlds. Wether those worlds are in space, in medieval fantasy or the 9th cirlce of hell it really has no bearing on the kit.
What a GG kit -should- provide is a centralized foundation for developers to work tegether on and "merge" into their projects as they see fit. By doing this through the GG website rather than 3rd party sites we can always be asured that as long is Torque is around all of the hard work and creativity that is contributed by the MMOKit commnuity will be available to other future members of the community and -NOT- get lost forever when someone decides they don't want to work on the kit or provide it anymore.
By keeping kit development within GG it will always have a home and be open to more of the Torque community which is, hands down, the best indie development environment out there today. (And has been for years).
Things like this wont happen overnight here at GG but based on the responses to the other MMOKit thread I am hoping maybe GG is open to looking at this option a little closer and give us an oportunity to continue some of the hard work of the past MMOKit developers who have moved on due to the current issues surrounding the different kits.
Here is hoping.
#5
08/26/2008 (11:38 am)
How much would you be willing to pay to license such a kit? For an in-house project? Indie title? Commercial title?
#6
Truth be told though everytime you throw another dollar figure at people you cut out another group of the community from development. How many MMOs have ever been released with Torque? Very very few. Fact is GG would stand to make far more money selling their content packs than if they attached a pricetag to an MMOKit.
All that said, if GG invested time and money into developing an MMOKit base I'd definitely see the monetary value in licensing something like that. All I am really looking for right now is a GG sanctioned MMOKit development area to give appropriate access to people with the correct licensing and clear up any fears about inapropriate distrobution etc.
Just my 2 bits :)
08/26/2008 (11:48 am)
Fair question Tim but lets be clear about it. The kit is developed by the community not GG. If GG wanted to produce a nice baseline kit for the community to get started off of that's different. I'd definitely be intrested in paying some kind of fee probably along the lines of other Torque addon kits.Truth be told though everytime you throw another dollar figure at people you cut out another group of the community from development. How many MMOs have ever been released with Torque? Very very few. Fact is GG would stand to make far more money selling their content packs than if they attached a pricetag to an MMOKit.
All that said, if GG invested time and money into developing an MMOKit base I'd definitely see the monetary value in licensing something like that. All I am really looking for right now is a GG sanctioned MMOKit development area to give appropriate access to people with the correct licensing and clear up any fears about inapropriate distrobution etc.
Just my 2 bits :)
#7
08/26/2008 (1:18 pm)
It's sure something that I would be really interested in and would consider helping out to develop with a good group of people if it was to be a community based effort. Our current project needs a lot of the backend servers that are required by an MMO - I spent a while investigating the Prairie Games MMOKIT but it was proving to be a headache to unravel everything that was done for MoM and change it, instead I've started coding our own systems - character server and patching system completed so far. 
#8
Firstly I think the 'mmo' tag shouls be dropped to such a kit, and instead it could be named (PW) kit. Especially since none of us developing knows if it ever will get mass multiplayers online (in it), and the common goal of such a kit would be aimed at elements of a 'Persistent World'.
It would be very clever to keep it C++/Torquescript only, as any derailment towards other languages only tends to slow down/annoy/disillusion/break those that have 'the ideas' but not the abilities to writeUps themself. (And I assume this effort is aimed at the low/middle coderbunch -like myself).
Implementing account creation (whatEver GuiWay) and storage of data in SqlLite (it can go along the 'kit' and gives insight in connecting) or flatFiles with customized I/O (as a PW will have lots of shorttimed queries, and dosent really need a huge/heavy DMBS).
Adding in (based on the base Engine Models) race and gender model selection to keep it as GG friendly as possible, with no pack models used/included or custom models (unless scaled as and with .dsqs like Kork) to ease further tweaking and ease up understanding of what goes on.
Integrating a inventory system, dosent matter what systems of the forum ones thats used. As long as it can handle inventory adding, slot transferral, inventory deleting, and bank/vendor I/O as well.
Interaction (that was a broad one I know) with environmental ressources, mobs and other player objects.
A loot (interaction) system that ensure objects can 'drop' and be distributed to either a single player or to be handled by a group.
Maybe some sort of communication system seamed in as well.
- Theres tons more, but instead of pouring water out the ears, Ill stick around and see how this evolves ;)
Nice project !
08/26/2008 (1:19 pm)
My 2 centsFirstly I think the 'mmo' tag shouls be dropped to such a kit, and instead it could be named (PW) kit. Especially since none of us developing knows if it ever will get mass multiplayers online (in it), and the common goal of such a kit would be aimed at elements of a 'Persistent World'.
It would be very clever to keep it C++/Torquescript only, as any derailment towards other languages only tends to slow down/annoy/disillusion/break those that have 'the ideas' but not the abilities to writeUps themself. (And I assume this effort is aimed at the low/middle coderbunch -like myself).
Implementing account creation (whatEver GuiWay) and storage of data in SqlLite (it can go along the 'kit' and gives insight in connecting) or flatFiles with customized I/O (as a PW will have lots of shorttimed queries, and dosent really need a huge/heavy DMBS).
Adding in (based on the base Engine Models) race and gender model selection to keep it as GG friendly as possible, with no pack models used/included or custom models (unless scaled as and with .dsqs like Kork) to ease further tweaking and ease up understanding of what goes on.
Integrating a inventory system, dosent matter what systems of the forum ones thats used. As long as it can handle inventory adding, slot transferral, inventory deleting, and bank/vendor I/O as well.
Interaction (that was a broad one I know) with environmental ressources, mobs and other player objects.
A loot (interaction) system that ensure objects can 'drop' and be distributed to either a single player or to be handled by a group.
Maybe some sort of communication system seamed in as well.
- Theres tons more, but instead of pouring water out the ears, Ill stick around and see how this evolves ;)
Nice project !
#9
@Christian: dont undersell the Torque Network engine Christian :) Out of the box it can easily support over a 100 players per mission on a very mediocre server. The prairie games MoM network structure is very unoptimized and although it can support well voer 100 players per mission, once someone adds in a more structured compression scheme for data handling the highest demand arrays you can theoretically cut your datastream load to a fraction of it's current state. (This is based on an ongoing discussion at the MMOWorkshop centered around someones development of an auctionhouse platform)
A Torque based persistant world that supports thousands of players is not so hard to believe. I think alot of developers get carried away with their target market and I do agree that most inde games should focus on a more realistic 1000 to 10,000 player capacity in their world but rest assured, the TNL is definitely capable of handling this.
The key thing about building a GG MMOKit (or PWKit if you will) is to draw the indies together under one banner rather than seeing people excluded from this or that because of disagreements. Let's face it, people will disagree all the time. It's the ability of GG to make thie proposed kit available to -all- licensed Torque owners and to allow them to share their development work as they desire that will make this project different, and if I may, successful.
08/26/2008 (1:33 pm)
Great discussion guys keep it coming :)@Christian: dont undersell the Torque Network engine Christian :) Out of the box it can easily support over a 100 players per mission on a very mediocre server. The prairie games MoM network structure is very unoptimized and although it can support well voer 100 players per mission, once someone adds in a more structured compression scheme for data handling the highest demand arrays you can theoretically cut your datastream load to a fraction of it's current state. (This is based on an ongoing discussion at the MMOWorkshop centered around someones development of an auctionhouse platform)
A Torque based persistant world that supports thousands of players is not so hard to believe. I think alot of developers get carried away with their target market and I do agree that most inde games should focus on a more realistic 1000 to 10,000 player capacity in their world but rest assured, the TNL is definitely capable of handling this.
The key thing about building a GG MMOKit (or PWKit if you will) is to draw the indies together under one banner rather than seeing people excluded from this or that because of disagreements. Let's face it, people will disagree all the time. It's the ability of GG to make thie proposed kit available to -all- licensed Torque owners and to allow them to share their development work as they desire that will make this project different, and if I may, successful.
#10
08/26/2008 (1:49 pm)
A GG sponsored MMO kit? Isn't this why they hired Prairie Games...?
#11
Some other kits that have sprung up over the years required pack purchases, other scripting languages, etc. and it turned people away who would have otherwise contributed in a big way. Nothing wrong with those other kits, just that I think by requiring additional purchases beyond TGE/TGEA, you're locking out a potential developer base that might prove useful in the project.
Plus, if you want to use Python in the project, then Lua people are upset, and if you use Lua, then (insert scripting language here) people are upset, etc. It's best to stick to plain vanilla TorqueScript as much as possible. If people want to implement other scripting languages in their project, go for it - no need to make us all switch to it :)
And yes, Persistent World is probably a better term, but watch how it's worded - last I saw, the Torque license only allows "games", not simulations, etc. ;) But a game set in a Persistent World should be fine.
So, a big decision that would have to be made early on... what database are we going to use? SQLite? or MySQL? SQLite is (as far as I know) not as strong/secure as MySQL, but aren't there licensing issues with MySQL?
08/26/2008 (1:55 pm)
Christian: I agree with you - keep it as close to basic Torque/TorqueScript/C++ as possible.Some other kits that have sprung up over the years required pack purchases, other scripting languages, etc. and it turned people away who would have otherwise contributed in a big way. Nothing wrong with those other kits, just that I think by requiring additional purchases beyond TGE/TGEA, you're locking out a potential developer base that might prove useful in the project.
Plus, if you want to use Python in the project, then Lua people are upset, and if you use Lua, then (insert scripting language here) people are upset, etc. It's best to stick to plain vanilla TorqueScript as much as possible. If people want to implement other scripting languages in their project, go for it - no need to make us all switch to it :)
And yes, Persistent World is probably a better term, but watch how it's worded - last I saw, the Torque license only allows "games", not simulations, etc. ;) But a game set in a Persistent World should be fine.
So, a big decision that would have to be made early on... what database are we going to use? SQLite? or MySQL? SQLite is (as far as I know) not as strong/secure as MySQL, but aren't there licensing issues with MySQL?
#12
Honestly, that's not really the problem with stock Torque supporting large numbers of players. Even with 500 players, you're not network bound.
The problem is much more because stock Torque is tuned towards 10s of players with sophisticated simulation at a high tick rate. You (generally speaking) don't need that for an MMOG (for instance, I don't know of any MMOG that simulated projectiles... projectiles are instantaneous in every MMOG that I'm aware of... in Torque, projectiles are simlulated, from ejection to collision, and moreover, they are actually ghosted or not ghosted per player connection depending on the player view frustrum, proximity, player and projectile velocity, and it even considers whether the projectile is travelling perpendicular or parallel to the frustrum).
There's a bunch of stuff that you can detune to use fewer CPU cycles in the simulation, and thereby support a larger number of concurrent players, but you probably don't want to start at the network code.
I'm not sure how an auction house system would affect this in any case, as you'd probably want to handle that via a centralized server, not a Torque engine instance. The data travelling across the wire to handle an auction house would be negigible (actually, damn close to zero) compared to the quantity of UDP that travels across the wire to implement the simulation.
Vside
08/26/2008 (1:57 pm)
Quote:
The prairie games MoM network structure is very unoptimized and although it can support well voer 100 players per mission, once someone adds in a more structured compression scheme for data handling the highest demand arrays you can theoretically cut your datastream load to a fraction of it's current state. (This is based on an ongoing discussion at the MMOWorkshop centered around someones development of an auctionhouse platform)
Honestly, that's not really the problem with stock Torque supporting large numbers of players. Even with 500 players, you're not network bound.
The problem is much more because stock Torque is tuned towards 10s of players with sophisticated simulation at a high tick rate. You (generally speaking) don't need that for an MMOG (for instance, I don't know of any MMOG that simulated projectiles... projectiles are instantaneous in every MMOG that I'm aware of... in Torque, projectiles are simlulated, from ejection to collision, and moreover, they are actually ghosted or not ghosted per player connection depending on the player view frustrum, proximity, player and projectile velocity, and it even considers whether the projectile is travelling perpendicular or parallel to the frustrum).
There's a bunch of stuff that you can detune to use fewer CPU cycles in the simulation, and thereby support a larger number of concurrent players, but you probably don't want to start at the network code.
I'm not sure how an auction house system would affect this in any case, as you'd probably want to handle that via a centralized server, not a Torque engine instance. The data travelling across the wire to handle an auction house would be negigible (actually, damn close to zero) compared to the quantity of UDP that travels across the wire to implement the simulation.
Quote:A Torque based persistant world that supports thousands of players is not so hard to believe.
Vside
#13
That's the problem - we don't really know. I have wondered that over the past few months, especially seeing some of Josh's blogs about massive worlds, etc. Problem is, if they tell us they are working on one, then all they will see is "when is it coming out?" "is it ready yet?" "can I beta it?"
And if they don't say anything at all, then you get a group like us who strikes out on our own and ends up writing something that gets one-upped when they release theirs... or of course there's always the chance that we could end up writing something better... hey I can dream ;)
08/26/2008 (1:58 pm)
Quote:Marcus: A GG sponsored MMO kit? Isn't this why they hired Prairie Games...?
That's the problem - we don't really know. I have wondered that over the past few months, especially seeing some of Josh's blogs about massive worlds, etc. Problem is, if they tell us they are working on one, then all they will see is "when is it coming out?" "is it ready yet?" "can I beta it?"
And if they don't say anything at all, then you get a group like us who strikes out on our own and ends up writing something that gets one-upped when they release theirs... or of course there's always the chance that we could end up writing something better... hey I can dream ;)
#14
There are good reasons to use Python or Lua over TorqueScript, not the least of which is that there are lots of existing libraries and tooling for those languages.
08/26/2008 (2:02 pm)
Quote:Plus, if you want to use Python in the project, then Lua people are upset, and if you use Lua, then (insert scripting language here) people are upset, etc. It's best to stick to plain vanilla TorqueScript as much as possible.
There are good reasons to use Python or Lua over TorqueScript, not the least of which is that there are lots of existing libraries and tooling for those languages.
#15
... exactly, and don't forget the server tech world is ruled by Java/.NET
08/26/2008 (2:05 pm)
Quote:There are good reasons to use Python or Lua over TorqueScript, not the least of which is that there are lots of existing libraries and tooling for those languages.
... exactly, and don't forget the server tech world is ruled by Java/.NET
#16
I agree, those scripting languages bring a lot to a project, but you always end up with the "my scripting language is better than yours" arguments. Perhaps those are unavoidable and we have to use *something* besides TorqueScript, but it would be nice if we could keep as many people as possible interested in working on the project without quibbling over such things.
08/26/2008 (2:07 pm)
Quote:There are good reasons to use Python or Lua over TorqueScript, not the least of which is that there are lots of existing libraries and tooling for those languages.
I agree, those scripting languages bring a lot to a project, but you always end up with the "my scripting language is better than yours" arguments. Perhaps those are unavoidable and we have to use *something* besides TorqueScript, but it would be nice if we could keep as many people as possible interested in working on the project without quibbling over such things.
#17
It doesn't really matter. I think you'll want to implement a service layer in front of the database for all your instance servers to talk to anyways. Once you've done that, your choice of database becomes whatever suits you. There are price and performance considerations, but, for the most part, anything your service layer can talk to (which will probably mean SQL) would work (especially for an independent).
Deciding on a database is probably putting the cart well before the horse.
There are a bunch of subsystems you'll need to support any sort of MMOG long before you need to decide anything having to do with which database you use.
08/26/2008 (2:08 pm)
Quote:
So, a big decision that would have to be made early on... what database are we going to use? SQLite? or MySQL? SQLite is (as far as I know) not as strong/secure as MySQL, but aren't there licensing issues with MySQL?
It doesn't really matter. I think you'll want to implement a service layer in front of the database for all your instance servers to talk to anyways. Once you've done that, your choice of database becomes whatever suits you. There are price and performance considerations, but, for the most part, anything your service layer can talk to (which will probably mean SQL) would work (especially for an independent).
Deciding on a database is probably putting the cart well before the horse.
There are a bunch of subsystems you'll need to support any sort of MMOG long before you need to decide anything having to do with which database you use.
#18
08/26/2008 (2:21 pm)
I hope that if there is a GG sponsored MMO kit, that it will be equally good for MMO FPS and not just the usual MMO RPG.
#19
Tim & Josh, there might be really good reasons to use other languages than the native ones, or even other engines for a pw. But the main goal should be to adress the audience here. And that are thousands of users centered around the core tecs.
Derailing from those is when it begins to thin out the contributors and / or users of said end result.
Hopefully my thoughts passes through, so I dont just sound as a noisy flaggelant ;)
BTW; As I recall from reading through MySql eula / licence / etc. there are no legal issues at all distributing that one as part of a game.
PS: Interesting info about tickrates, projectile calcs, trimming CPU usage there Tim!
PPS: I did read at some point in the GG eulas that a PW infact 'could be' termed as a non game by them, and if such one was to be developed/sold a special agreement should be made with them. But, as I read in another thread, this community project allows for developing such a kit!
08/26/2008 (2:29 pm)
FlybyNight I wasent trying to undersel anything, and I really dig this project/brainstorm thread!Tim & Josh, there might be really good reasons to use other languages than the native ones, or even other engines for a pw. But the main goal should be to adress the audience here. And that are thousands of users centered around the core tecs.
Derailing from those is when it begins to thin out the contributors and / or users of said end result.
Hopefully my thoughts passes through, so I dont just sound as a noisy flaggelant ;)
BTW; As I recall from reading through MySql eula / licence / etc. there are no legal issues at all distributing that one as part of a game.
PS: Interesting info about tickrates, projectile calcs, trimming CPU usage there Tim!
PPS: I did read at some point in the GG eulas that a PW infact 'could be' termed as a non game by them, and if such one was to be developed/sold a special agreement should be made with them. But, as I read in another thread, this community project allows for developing such a kit!
#20
now as for a full blown mmokit, trying to get players to use a full blown prefabed mmokit in my opinion is a mistake. As you end up with MoM (minions of mirth) clones, sure it works to a point, but thats one of the flaws of the MoMKit. If a player wants to take the rpg kit from a singleplayer to multiplayer, its in there, if he wants to build on it even more with python, java, gemstone, whatever they choose, they will have that option too. In all cases the player has the free choice of doing that. If they cant support the db code, then they shouldnt be forced to use it.
Now, I agree GG needs a more robust enhancement, there is several good resouces that can be dusted off and brought to bear. I mean what is in a multiplayer rpg or mmo, or singleplayer rpg for that matter.
Persistance inventory
Melee and ranged weapon flexibility
ai spawners
persistance character save and load
the list goes on, but these are items that people have commonly asked for.
But I noticed above there are several points above. Creating a MMOkit is a mistake Imo. A smaller more stable RPG kit would be more feasible for more projects. And scaleable. In alot of cases mmos fail becuase of lack of support before it even get started. So why give a 10 ton anchor to build with when they really need a 5 ton with some addon packages.
Perhaps the RPG kit would be a extention of the AFX package. As you might have noticed the first thing everyone did when AFX came out was intergrate it. Check out the MoMkit from PG, the MMoKIT from DGI, Crowns of Power, Fantasci and the list goes on. all added it and made it part of their engine. It was like speed deamons trying to get them integrated once the value of the AFX kit was realised. Powerful yet sutle.
08/26/2008 (2:47 pm)
I would actually suggest a even simplier idea, rather then trying to create a mmokit. We need a RPG kit with enhanced multiple player support. The AFX kit is already a good start on such a device and keeps all the basic code in Torque script and c++. And strap in a simple but persistant db system. My recommendation is Mysql or sqlite. Im not saying that should be the choice, but something simple and not needing a entire rewrite of TS and the c++ portion of the engine to understand. Also imo another reason why folks have found the MoMkit intimidating.now as for a full blown mmokit, trying to get players to use a full blown prefabed mmokit in my opinion is a mistake. As you end up with MoM (minions of mirth) clones, sure it works to a point, but thats one of the flaws of the MoMKit. If a player wants to take the rpg kit from a singleplayer to multiplayer, its in there, if he wants to build on it even more with python, java, gemstone, whatever they choose, they will have that option too. In all cases the player has the free choice of doing that. If they cant support the db code, then they shouldnt be forced to use it.
Now, I agree GG needs a more robust enhancement, there is several good resouces that can be dusted off and brought to bear. I mean what is in a multiplayer rpg or mmo, or singleplayer rpg for that matter.
Persistance inventory
Melee and ranged weapon flexibility
ai spawners
persistance character save and load
the list goes on, but these are items that people have commonly asked for.
But I noticed above there are several points above. Creating a MMOkit is a mistake Imo. A smaller more stable RPG kit would be more feasible for more projects. And scaleable. In alot of cases mmos fail becuase of lack of support before it even get started. So why give a 10 ton anchor to build with when they really need a 5 ton with some addon packages.
Perhaps the RPG kit would be a extention of the AFX package. As you might have noticed the first thing everyone did when AFX came out was intergrate it. Check out the MoMkit from PG, the MMoKIT from DGI, Crowns of Power, Fantasci and the list goes on. all added it and made it part of their engine. It was like speed deamons trying to get them integrated once the value of the AFX kit was realised. Powerful yet sutle.
Associate Britt Scott