Run-Time, In-Game Object Manipulation(s)

#1 1. In the mission editor, you can add a large number of game entities using the editor panes.

2. You would have to "build" the character in an external application (say, 3D Studio Max). Then you would have to create the code to automate everything that you want to do with that character (in script of C++). None of that is "out of the box" features because they are minutely game-specific.

3. I would recommend creating that artwork externally and importing it and its animations into the engine rather than taking an inordinate amount of time to automate such creations as this. Now, I could see if you were creating randomly generated levels, using blocks of interior pieces to generate scenes, but that would require quite a bit of coding.

#2 I had a though on your cable car. If you want the path to appear realistic, the cable should be on a catenary instead of a straight line. This shape is well described, and the equation provided at http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Catenary.

For a heavy car relative to the tension on the cable, two catenaries will form, one on either side of the present location of the car.

#3 ------------------------------------------------------------
1. Precision Drawing & Motion
------------------------------------------------------------

@Joe Bussell

I've been looking at your link
plus an off-branching one, which was
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Overhead_lines
and it did look like, more or less, what
I'm trying to do here.

BTW, there's a demo called
"Synapse Gaming: Torque Lighting Kit",
that would make a pretty good example
with several scenes showing in it,
in regards to precision drawing.

So basically, I'm looking to find out
whether TGE/A (editors?) themselves
may offer some sort of a
large-shape drawing tool, such as
long corridors, a road, a cable (for a
cable car), etc. ?

------------------------------------------------------------
2. TGEA Upgrade
------------------------------------------------------------

@David Blake

Congrats, you got promoted? :-)

I've finally been able to run TGEA v1.0.3 Demo
on my machine.

And - yes, the graphics did look better,
but I kind of keep asking myself - would that
alone be worth nearly $150 for the upgrade?

I mean, most of the "meat" is in either
TGE v1.4.2 or v1.5.2 already, in terms
of various editors etc., right?


------------------------------------------------------------
3. Run-Time Object Manipulation(s)
------------------------------------------------------------

Well, If I were to be more precise, then
I would probably want more to modify
properties of EXISTING in-game object(s),
than to create new ones on the fly (unless
it isn't all too difficult, of course).

My example would be the creature running
around in the demo of either TGE v1.4.2
or v1.5.2, where, on one of the scene,
it simply stands inside a building and 2 buttons
appear on screen; one button allows the user
to have a flag object appear on top of the
creature's head.

So I'm assuming that the flag object is
already available for that game or scene,
and only have to be positioned and made
visible, right?

But then again, that also means that all
in-game object(s) must be available
BEFORE any of them are to be used
on any particular scene, correct?


------------------------------------------------------------
4. Run-Time Object Modification(s)
------------------------------------------------------------

Another option - which may or may not be
easy to perform - is to group / ungroup
several "mini-objects" into / out of a
larger object. For example, if I were
to take that flag object, could I simply
rotate it, say, 90 degrees, then "hook it"
into the creature's hands, and thus make it
a new type of weapon for him to carry around
at all times?


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5. Lazy People Alternative
------------------------------------------------------------

Regarding "Blender 3D", I've finally taken
a bit-deeper look at it, and it did look like
its GUI was very complex yet as if it had
a lot to offer.

However, I'm having the impression as if
the task of making a whole bunch of
objects for a game might prove quite a
tedious one, yes?

Therefore I was thinking, maybe anyone
would know about free object collection(s)
out there (on the Internet, I guess), that
could be "adopted" and then imported into
either TGE/A or into Blender, for further
modifications or simply for immediate use
in games?

Thanks much
Ronnie

#4

Quote:...
I've been looking at your link
plus an off-branching one, which was
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Overhead_lines
and it did look like, more or less, what
I'm trying to do here.

Generally, they would be pieces of your model, and not dynamically created elements. But then, you wouldn't get the general sway of lines. If you want that for realism, it will take a good C++ programmer some time to create new render objects. Melv May has some great resources for doing fancy things TGE. Nothing to do this specifically, but they could be a good starting place.

Quote:BTW, there's a demo called
"Synapse Gaming: Torque Lighting Kit",
that would make a pretty good example
with several scenes showing in it,
in regards to precision drawing.

I believe all of the artwork for the LK was done in 3D Studio Max and Quark (though I can't be sure if Canon used Quark or not). The artwork for the nice demo was done by Canon, a rather amazing artist from Frogames.

Quote:So basically, I'm looking to find out
whether TGE/A (editors?) themselves
may offer some sort of a
large-shape drawing tool, such as
long corridors, a road, a cable (for a
cable car), etc. ?

You will still have to create your artwork in a secondary program like Max or Blender for DTS models and Constructor or 3DWorld Studio for DIF's. There are no editors for such things built into TGEA (or TGE). You can place objects and edit terrain in the World editor, but the objects you place must be created elsewhere.

Quote:@David Blake

Congrats, you got promoted? :-)

Wonders seemingly never cease!

Quote:I've finally been able to run TGEA v1.0.3 Demo
on my machine.

And - yes, the graphics did look better,
but I kind of keep asking myself - would that
alone be worth nearly $150 for the upgrade?

I mean, most of the "meat" is in either
TGE v1.4.2 or v1.5.2 already, in terms
of various editors etc., right?

The main difference is hardware targets, not editors or tools. TGEA targets more modern hardware with shader models and higher GPU's. You would still be using a modeling application such as Max or Blender as well as a brush app (unless you add in the polysoup resource) like Constructor or 3D World Studio to create your interiors.

Quote:
...
Well, If I were to be more precise, then
I would probably want more to modify
properties of EXISTING in-game object(s),
than to create new ones on the fly (unless
it isn't all too difficult, of course).

Creating geometry on the fly is quite difficult, though there are procedural content creation algorithms that an advanced math degree and some C++ magic can take you a long way.

Quote:My example would be the creature running
around in the demo of either TGE v1.4.2
or v1.5.2, where, on one of the scene,
it simply stands inside a building and 2 buttons
appear on screen; one button allows the user
to have a flag object appear on top of the
creature's head.

So I'm assuming that the flag object is
already available for that game or scene,
and only have to be positioned and made
visible, right?

But then again, that also means that all
in-game object(s) must be available
BEFORE any of them are to be used
on any particular scene, correct?
...
Another option - which may or may not be
easy to perform - is to group / ungroup
several "mini-objects" into / out of a
larger object. For example, if I were
to take that flag object, could I simply
rotate it, say, 90 degrees, then "hook it"
into the creature's hands, and thus make it
a new type of weapon for him to carry around
at all times?

Yup. The flag and the orc are two models that were created in 3D Studio Max. They have mount points. One is on the back so that the orc (Kork) can carry the flag around. You could also mount it to the weapon mount on his hands.

Quote:
...
However, I'm having the impression as if
the task of making a whole bunch of
objects for a game might prove quite a
tedious one, yes?

Pretty much, though for artists, what you call tedium = fun and profit. Though even the most excitable artists can be cut to the quick with some of the artistic drudgery they have to do in creating content for a game. Characters and animations can be fun, while making buckets or potions or bowls...not so much.

Quote:Therefore I was thinking, maybe anyone
would know about free object collection(s)
out there (on the Internet, I guess), that
could be "adopted" and then imported into
either TGE/A or into Blender, for further
modifications or simply for immediate use
in games?

There are a ton of resources. There are content packs available here at the GG store, at DexSoft, 3D-Diggers, Frogames, etc. There are also great resources like lowpoly-coop.

EDIT: Cleanup

#5 @David Blake

Thanks for all the info.

But let me ask you
an "innocent" question:

Saving big money may not
be all too reachable a goal,
if one were to make a fair
amount of objects for their
game, yes?

I mean, the idea of relatively low-cost tools
is great (and I do intend to make a purchase
soon), but if one has to spend an extra $3,000
or even a $1,000 on some decent 3D modeller
software - well, it kind of defeats the purpose,
doesn't it?

Now, of course, I do NOT mean to get cute here,
but can I realistically expect - at least in the beginning
of my 3D game making career - that I'd be able
to do well at ALL ASPECTS of making a game -
without spending a couple of hunderds???

In other words, would all of the tools and resources
that you and others have kindly referred me to,
specifically the free ones - suffice for making
a good-looking, decently-functioning 3D game?

Well,
That is the question :-)

Have a good one,
Ronnie

#6

Quote:
I mean, the idea of relatively low-cost tools
is great (and I do intend to make a purchase
soon), but if one has to spend an extra $3,000
or even a $1,000 on some decent 3D modeller
software - well, it kind of defeats the purpose,
doesn't it?

There are free and low cost moddling programs out there.
Some would be:
Deled It's only $59,95 USD (approx. 47 EURO) and for another $15.00 you can get the torque exporter to export your models to dif format, or for dts, export to obj and convert/animate it in Milkshape which is another low cost moddler.
There is blender, which is free, and you can look at other low cost/free moddling packages as well.

Quote:
Now, of course, I do NOT mean to get cute here,
but can I realistically expect - at least in the beginning
of my 3D game making career - that I'd be able
to do well at ALL ASPECTS of making a game -
without spending a couple of hunderds???

Answer is most likely no, but it all depends on what you already know.

Quote:
In other words, would all of the tools and resources
that you and others have kindly referred me to,
specifically the free ones - suffice for making
a good-looking, decently-functioning 3D game?

Yes, if you have or develope the skills needed.

#7 Mike Rowley

Thank you for your comforting words!!!

BTW, I've looked before at "MilkShape 3D Screenshots"
(on their site), and if I were to judge by looks alone,
I must say I'm not too impressed.

Maybe you know better?

However, I've also looked at that linked you mentioned,
namely "DeleD", and THAT ONE looked a whole lot better.

Who knows?

You see, I suppose that part of my pre-purchase research
may have to include an "intense" effort of downloading
and installing (and trying) some (or all) of the tools
recommended here, and see for myself which ones
are useful to me.

So thanks for the links,
and hopefully we'll geet to see
some decent tools at work. :-)

Ronnie

#8

Quote:
You see, I suppose that part of my pre-purchase research
may have to include an "intense" effort of downloading
and installing (and trying) some (or all) of the tools
recommended here, and see for myself which ones
are useful to me.

That's the best way. Both milkshape and deled have fully functional demo (or lite) versions available.
Personally, I can't model anything in milkshape, but animating is quite simple. I use Deled to make everything, and if I need to animate it, or if it needs to be dts, I use milkshape to animate/convert it.

#9 Mike fielded those questions nicely!

Quote:Now, of course, I do NOT mean to get cute here,
but can I realistically expect - at least in the beginning
of my 3D game making career - that I'd be able
to do well at ALL ASPECTS of making a game -
without spending a couple of hunderds???

In other words, would all of the tools and resources
that you and others have kindly referred me to,
specifically the free ones - suffice for making
a good-looking, decently-functioning 3D game?

This is impossible to measure since I do not know your experience, knowledge level, artistic talent and ability, programming talents or abilities, etc. There are some that can and others that would fail miserably. That's pretty much the spectrum of answers for the question.

Now, there are teams that use completely free tools (Blender, GiMP, GTKRadiant, etc) and engines (say Irrlicht or OGRE + extensions). Using free textures, tools, and engines they can make excellent work on the cheap. But they are also dedicated programmers and artists with the necessary talent where it counts. If you investigate your options, find your weaknesses, and be honest about them, you should then look for people with strengths where your weaknesses lie and team up.

#10 OK,

I'll look into those softwares.

Thanks much
:-)

#11 I'm pretty darn new to this 3d stuff myself, and hit my head up against the same issues. First, bear in mind that torque will only actually render .dts and .dif files - which are proprietary formats. So if you use torque, choose tools that support the format - or you will need to add a conversion phase to your process. In order to make torque content, you MUST have at least 3 additional support programs:

- A graphics editor for textures (like photoshop (>$)/Paintshop pro (<$))
- A 3d-modeler to create world objects (like Lightwave(>$) / Milkshape (<$))
- An interior model creation tool for making .dif files (like Constructor (free!) / QuArK (free - no direct export))

Depending on your Modeling software choices, you may also need

- A 3d animator (lightwave & milkshape both have this built in)
- A .dts exporter (lightwave & milkshape also have this built in)
- A .dif exporter (Constructor is the GG app for making .difs)

You also will ultimately want some sort of basic audio recorder/editor. And of course, you will also need a C++ compiler if you want to make any engine changes and an IDE like codeWeaver is really nice vs. notepad or whatever for updating the scripts.

I got my setup running for around $350 with:
TGE Indie License - $150
Milkshape - $47 (damn euros)
Ultimate Unwrap - $47 (unnecessary but ultimately very useful)
Constructor - Free from Garage Games
Paintshop Pro - $90 (actually, I already use photoshop - that's just how much this costs)

I think that's a very realistic expectation of what it will take to really get started. This is a huge thing Torque has going for it - you can get a whole team up and going for under $1000 and still produce and distribute commercial-grade games royality free.

Quote:
BTW, I've looked before at "MilkShape 3D Screenshots"
(on their site), and if I were to judge by looks alone,
I must say I'm not too impressed.

Don't forget that any game is going to be using low-poly models rendered using a real-time engine (it's not like there's 10 minutes per frame to render). I've seen some amazing work from Milkshape - but it doesn't help much making a game. Choose based on what is easy for you to use - and how easily you can get your models into torque.

With any of these tools, the model is only going to be as good as the artist who makes it. NONE of them is going to instantly poop out great looking models. Learning to do them well is a process in any software, both tedious and fun in my opinion - BTW: I LIKE doing bowls and barrels ... and tables :-).

I learned a ton from the low-poly tutorials at this site: www.psionic3d.co.uk/page.php?3. They also have some pretty cool free models and stuff if you poke around the site.

Hope that helps.

#12 Oh yeah... One other thing was not really apparent to me when I first started researching Torque: the demo is actualy the full-blown system - with everything but the source code. You don't need to license the system to experiment with trying to add objects and fiddle with the scripting language to see how it works. You can push F-11 and ask for a new mission and go to town with some of the tutorials before you license the code

I somehow expected "the whole commercial package" when I purchased and was confused when the same 'ole demo came up. It turns out - that same ole demo is the system. Of course, sometimes I'm not all that bright.

#13 @Kent Butler

Thank you for having outline tools and costs.
I guess that kind of makes things easier when
one is trying to find their way amongst all
of the zillion 3D object-making tools out there.


----------------------------------------
1. Simple Graphics Software
----------------------------------------
Are you sure that Paintshop Pro is $90?
Maybe I was looking at the wrong URL, but
they had all sorts of softwares to choose from, at
http://store.corel.com/


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2. Game's 3D Objects
----------------------------------------
Please ignore the ignorance...
But, would you care to explain
the difference between one type
of software and another one,
which you've both mentioned?
Specifically speaking, one type
that you've referred to was:

Quote:
3d-modeler to create world objects

And the other was:

Quote:
An interior model creation tool

PLUS: What is a "Map Editor"?
Is this some kind of a world editor?

Now, I understand that whatever it is
I am to create with ANY non-TGE/A tool
would need to be exported (or perhaps
imported?) into TGE/A's format(s), so that
TGE/A's editor(s) would be able to work with
those object(s) further on and place them
in my game, but -- wouldn't a 3D modeler
tool suffice to create ANY and ALL types
of 3D objects, BOTH world and in-world objects?


----------------------------------------
3. Getting Started
----------------------------------------
So basically, what you're saying is that
with all those tools (or types of tools)
that you've listed above, you are pretty much
good to go?
And what's more importantly - that you're capable
of doing the WHOLE WORK yourself - no need
to hire any artists, assembly line workers,
dish washers, producers, programmers (assuming
you know how to program, of course), or others?
Just wondering.

Thanks in advance
and keep up the fun.

#14

Quote:2. Game's 3D Objects
----------------------------------------
Please ignore the ignorance...
But, would you care to explain
the difference between one type
of software and another one,
which you've both mentioned?
Specifically speaking, one type
that you've referred to was:


Quote:

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

3d-modeler to create world objects

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------



And the other was:


Quote:

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

An interior model creation tool

What he's talking about is the type of moddeling package. Milkshape is ok for making dts objects, but not to good for making interiors. (buildings with insides you can walk around in)
Interiors in Torque are brush based, where dts is poly based. They are 2 different types of animals in the 3d world. If you look at any of the buildings in torque, they are mostly boxes hollowed out. The details on them are eather great textures, or dts models added. Also, remember something else. The dts format doesn't have collison. That is to say, you can walk thru a dts. A dif is an object made to be collidable.
To give a better reference on the different editors,
Quark and Constructor are brush based modeling programs.
Milkshape, 3ds max, maya, etc... are polygon modelors.
You will need both types of packages for making models for torque.

Quote:So basically, what you're saying is that
with all those tools (or types of tools)
that you've listed above, you are pretty much
good to go?

Yes. They have exporters for torque.

Quote:And what's more importantly - that you're capable
of doing the WHOLE WORK yourself - no need
to hire any artists, assembly line workers,
dish washers, producers, programmers (assuming
you know how to program, of course), or others?
Just wondering.

You can if you want. The only difference between doing it all yourself, or putting together a team is, if you do it all yourself, you get to do all the work. With a team, the work is spread out.

#15 OK.

I (think I) understand.

I don't mind doing the whole work myself,
as hiring people might require having
to pay them salaries etc., and that
would require me to run a company
as well, wouldn't it?

However, I'm not quite sure what the differrences
are between "brush based" and"poly based",
regarding an object's behavior. Mike has mentioned
that I want to make "an object made to be collidable";
and that there are "DIF" and "DTS" formats to TGE/A;

Would that mean, that I can (or should?) have some objects
that are like "pictures", which are static and can have no further
processing done on them, and then another type of objects
that are dynamic, meaning, recognizable by the engine nas capable of
demonstrating a behavior?

Puzzled,
Ronnie

#16 OK.

I (think I) understand.

I don't mind doing the whole work myself,
as hiring people might require having
to pay them salaries etc., and that
would require me to run a company
as well, wouldn't it?

However, I'm not quite sure what the differrences
are between "brush based" and"poly based",
regarding an object's behavior. Mike has mentioned
that I want to make "an object made to be collidable";
and that there are "DIF" and "DTS" formats to TGE/A;

Would that mean, that I can (or should?) have some objects
that are like "pictures", which are static and can have no further
processing done on them, and then another type of objects
that are dynamic, meaning, recognizable by the engine nas capable of
demonstrating a behavior?

Puzzled,
Ronnie

#17

Quote:I don't mind doing the whole work myself,
as hiring people might require having
to pay them salaries etc., and that
would require me to run a company
as well, wouldn't it?

Only if you hired a team. If you put together a team of people with the same type game idea, and used their talents, you could actually use them for free. (kind of)
Things like:
Profit sharing
percentage of sales
etc...
can go a long way. That's how I worked when I was on a team. We split up the profits after the game sold.

Quote:
I'm not quite sure what the differrences
are between "brush based" and"poly based",
regarding an object's behavior

Brush based would be houses and other such types of buildings. They automatically have collision.
Poly based is different in torque. If you add a script, you can collect dts objects and add them to inventory, or they can be the details on something, a vehicle, or an avatar.
This will get you the information on the dts format

This will explain dif better than I can
Hope those help you a little better.

#18 Mike,

I've tried those 2 links you've provided,
however, unfortunately they say "Login Required".

I suppose I would have to purchse an engine
in order to have my membership, yes?

Unless you could refer me to publically-accessible link(s)
where those topics may be explained.

Thanks,
Happy New Year :-)

#19 Ok, you've made me go do some lookup that I needed to do anyway. :-D

Anyway, here's what I can give you about dts: (those areas are supposed to be open.)

Quote:
.DTS (Dynamix Three Space) is the file format Torque uses for detailed 3d objects. Everything from interactive shapes like characters, vehicles, and weapons to static environment art like foliage and rocks will be brought into your game as a DTS.

and, for information on the dif format:

Quote:
Introduction
DIF is Dynamix Interior Format

"Why use DIF?" is a common question among beginning developers. It seem like it would be much more convenient to create buildings in a polygon editor like 3D Studio Max or Maya, and indeed it would be. There are some very real technical reasons that we use a BSP Brush editor like QuArK.



The BSP Brush style of object creation, while somewhat limiting in the creation phase, allows for an incredible number of optimizations on the code side of the engine. BSP Brushes are a very efficient way of determining object collision - one of the most CPU-intensive processes a real-time application performs. It also provides numerous shortcuts for culling of visibility through the use of "portals" so that rooms and terrain that the player can't see don't get sent to the graphics card for rendering. This is a lot harder to do, from a mathematical standpoint, than a non-programmer might imagine.

For more information on bsp, -->Look Here<--
Hope that helps a little more. Sorry about the links I gave before. I was under the impression that that information was public now.

#20 If you click the login at the top right, it should login to your garage games account. Some ares of TDN are only available to licensees, however.