Engine questions based on hlsl elements
by TheGasMan · in Torque Game Engine Advanced · 10/15/2007 (5:32 pm) · 13 replies
Greetings everyone,
- I would like to avoid making this thread into an 'argument festival'.
I want to keep this as a mature discussion so that we can get to the bottom of the reason for my post.
...If you have a negative post with no helpful content...please refrain from posting here. Thank you.
( If you would like to rant and call me names...I will give you an email address to send complaints/insults. :P )
Now for the reason:
I have been reviewing the TDN and loads of forum threads about the TGEA hlsl implementation. I have succeeded in porting 2 or 3 fx files out of *dozens*. I am experienced in programming with several languages but not specifically HLSL. However, I have never not-been able to pick something up after reviewing several examples over the course of a few days with reference material.
Before I continue, I will post a little about my extensive search on the subject.
// ---------
I have checked the following resources and TDN pages:
http://tdn.garagegames.com/wiki/Torque/Rendering/General_Shader_FAQ/HLSL_FAQ
http://tdn.garagegames.com/wiki/TSE/Shaders
http://www.garagegames.com/index.php?sec=mg&mod=resource&page=view&qid=8835 http://www.garagegames.com/index.php?sec=mg&mod=resource&page=view&qid=5868
http://www.garagegames.com/index.php?sec=mg&mod=resource&page=view&qid=7595
http://www.garagegames.com/index.php?sec=mg&mod=resource&page=view&qid=5774
http://www.garagegames.com/mg/forums/result.thread.php?qt=19220
and loads more of the directly found hlsl threads, resources and tdn pages.
// ---------
After reading everything readily available to me from GG(that I know of)...I am still perplexed.
It seems that there are a few gaps in the "structure" of this hlsl implementation.
Perhaps I am unable to recognize these things or perhaps they simply exist in another manner.
One example would be: timers are missing (we can't have something like animated fire in hlsl.)
- Another would be how difficult it is to port a simple shader and have it work 100% properly.
I am not asking for anyone to explain HLSL, but rather to help me understand (what I consider to be) chaos on the C++ to hlsl end of things.
- Surely, I bet a few of you are "griping at me" already but plz 'bear in mind' that I bought an engine license thinking this:
The TGEA feature page plainly reads:
"Users can drop in shaders from demos or tools such as FX Composer and RenderMonkey."
-> http://www.garagegames.com/products/torque/tgea/featurecomp/
------------------------------------------------------
On another note, I am curious why there aren't decals or particle engine shader effects included @ default engine build. The "add a shader to a class" resource is severely outdated and I would imagine that something like this should be included @ base-engine-functionality. Is this why TSE was renamed to TGEA? ....'cuz of these shader programming issues ?
-
Would an employee or an associate help me to fix this issue ?
(I do not need alot of help along the way, but a few tips would be wonderful.) ;)
-----------
So to end off:
1. I am curious about the hlsl implementation and why there isn't documentation to make absolute sense of the entire process. (seeing as how it looks like several things were changed several times)
2. I am also curious about why shaders are not implemented on decals or particles.
*To add:
*I am willing to purchase "Decent" notes or documentation on these area's of implementation.
Thank you ahead of time
-eb
- I would like to avoid making this thread into an 'argument festival'.
I want to keep this as a mature discussion so that we can get to the bottom of the reason for my post.
...If you have a negative post with no helpful content...please refrain from posting here. Thank you.
( If you would like to rant and call me names...I will give you an email address to send complaints/insults. :P )
Now for the reason:
I have been reviewing the TDN and loads of forum threads about the TGEA hlsl implementation. I have succeeded in porting 2 or 3 fx files out of *dozens*. I am experienced in programming with several languages but not specifically HLSL. However, I have never not-been able to pick something up after reviewing several examples over the course of a few days with reference material.
Before I continue, I will post a little about my extensive search on the subject.
// ---------
I have checked the following resources and TDN pages:
http://tdn.garagegames.com/wiki/Torque/Rendering/General_Shader_FAQ/HLSL_FAQ
http://tdn.garagegames.com/wiki/TSE/Shaders
http://www.garagegames.com/index.php?sec=mg&mod=resource&page=view&qid=8835 http://www.garagegames.com/index.php?sec=mg&mod=resource&page=view&qid=5868
http://www.garagegames.com/index.php?sec=mg&mod=resource&page=view&qid=7595
http://www.garagegames.com/index.php?sec=mg&mod=resource&page=view&qid=5774
http://www.garagegames.com/mg/forums/result.thread.php?qt=19220
and loads more of the directly found hlsl threads, resources and tdn pages.
// ---------
After reading everything readily available to me from GG(that I know of)...I am still perplexed.
It seems that there are a few gaps in the "structure" of this hlsl implementation.
Perhaps I am unable to recognize these things or perhaps they simply exist in another manner.
One example would be: timers are missing (we can't have something like animated fire in hlsl.)
- Another would be how difficult it is to port a simple shader and have it work 100% properly.
I am not asking for anyone to explain HLSL, but rather to help me understand (what I consider to be) chaos on the C++ to hlsl end of things.
- Surely, I bet a few of you are "griping at me" already but plz 'bear in mind' that I bought an engine license thinking this:
The TGEA feature page plainly reads:
"Users can drop in shaders from demos or tools such as FX Composer and RenderMonkey."
-> http://www.garagegames.com/products/torque/tgea/featurecomp/
------------------------------------------------------
On another note, I am curious why there aren't decals or particle engine shader effects included @ default engine build. The "add a shader to a class" resource is severely outdated and I would imagine that something like this should be included @ base-engine-functionality. Is this why TSE was renamed to TGEA? ....'cuz of these shader programming issues ?
-
Would an employee or an associate help me to fix this issue ?
(I do not need alot of help along the way, but a few tips would be wonderful.) ;)
-----------
So to end off:
1. I am curious about the hlsl implementation and why there isn't documentation to make absolute sense of the entire process. (seeing as how it looks like several things were changed several times)
2. I am also curious about why shaders are not implemented on decals or particles.
*To add:
*I am willing to purchase "Decent" notes or documentation on these area's of implementation.
Thank you ahead of time
-eb
About the author
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#2
Well "drop in" sounds too easy. I installed Render Monkey, tried to get some simple sample shaders into TGEA and gave up after several hours. Looks like G had trouble as well understanding the flow and... gave up?!?
I'm not a HLSL shader expert, but for me TGEA's shader interface seems to be a basic system and not good enough to handle shaders that use timers or more advanced stuff like that. I know there are some resources trying to fill some gaps but I'm missing the official part here (a better interface and docs).
IMHO what we now have is not enough for an engine once called Torque Shader Engine!
10/16/2007 (2:27 am)
Quote:The TGEA feature page plainly reads:
"Users can drop in shaders from demos or tools such as FX Composer and RenderMonkey."
-> http://www.garagegames.com/products/torque/tgea/featurecomp/
Well "drop in" sounds too easy. I installed Render Monkey, tried to get some simple sample shaders into TGEA and gave up after several hours. Looks like G had trouble as well understanding the flow and... gave up?!?
I'm not a HLSL shader expert, but for me TGEA's shader interface seems to be a basic system and not good enough to handle shaders that use timers or more advanced stuff like that. I know there are some resources trying to fill some gaps but I'm missing the official part here (a better interface and docs).
IMHO what we now have is not enough for an engine once called Torque Shader Engine!
#3
No mather which apps output you use, especially not if you try to use FX Composer or RenderMonkey shaders.
This is not really TGEA specific, most game engines have restrictions on complexity and supported features.
Its just that all other engines don't mention "drop in" feature capability.
But this is just one of the advertised features not existant in TGEA even 8 months past release of it ...
10/16/2007 (2:39 am)
Its sadly nowhere near drop in.No mather which apps output you use, especially not if you try to use FX Composer or RenderMonkey shaders.
This is not really TGEA specific, most game engines have restrictions on complexity and supported features.
Its just that all other engines don't mention "drop in" feature capability.
But this is just one of the advertised features not existant in TGEA even 8 months past release of it ...
#4
10/16/2007 (6:35 am)
TGEA's shader implementation is nothing special. I think most engines probably have something similar to it. Keep in mind that the math is completely the same for a FX Composer/RenderMonkey shader, so it is pretty trivial to add them in. In terms of timers, all "animated" shaders do is update a constant every few milliseconds. This is a great resource. And provides an extremely easy way of adding new external variables and changing them on the fly.
#5
A different side to this:
I can see why and agree that other engine elements are not deemed "necessary" to include in TGEA.
Example: the water body is very incomplete and I could care less about that issue as I believe it is strictly a "specific-to-a-game" feature.
But the REASON behind TGEA is it's SHADER SYSTEM. The entire reason for TGEA's existance is THE SHADER SYSTEM|dx .
*and more:
Do not get me wrong plz, I expect limitations...they are a fact of life. However, I have had to fix several basic and simple functions within this engine for it to render a few materials that the "Materials.PDF" claims to be possible @ default engine. This included simple materials comparable to the abilities of the Quake2 engine(scrolling, alphas and such).[no offense intended but that is bs]
Now here is my big dilemma:
***(here is where I will merely lay out how absurdly limited my future choices are.) ***
(I have thousands and thousands of dollars and as many man hours placed into a product centered around TGEA and it's asset pipeline. )
1. If I continue using the current unfixed TGEA, I can't achieve the set goal @ potential. ( = $ loss )
2. If I pay a programmer to fix the issue, then I am out money to fix something that should not be an issue. ( = $ loss )
3. If I go to a new engine, I lose more money to have everything ported and so on. ( = $ loss )
Either avenue I choose, I will lose money over something that should not be a concern.
I/WE of the community, do not need perfect functionality...but we do need "functionality" and "documentation".
So to finish up...I need something to happen...We-clients as a community NEED something to happen.
-> We have the potential to make GG/IAC sh!tloads of money....just give us the tools.
10/16/2007 (8:53 pm)
I know this is a bit of a rush to "bump" this....but I want to be sure that top GG staff see this. A different side to this:
I can see why and agree that other engine elements are not deemed "necessary" to include in TGEA.
Example: the water body is very incomplete and I could care less about that issue as I believe it is strictly a "specific-to-a-game" feature.
But the REASON behind TGEA is it's SHADER SYSTEM. The entire reason for TGEA's existance is THE SHADER SYSTEM|dx .
*and more:
Do not get me wrong plz, I expect limitations...they are a fact of life. However, I have had to fix several basic and simple functions within this engine for it to render a few materials that the "Materials.PDF" claims to be possible @ default engine. This included simple materials comparable to the abilities of the Quake2 engine(scrolling, alphas and such).[no offense intended but that is bs]
Now here is my big dilemma:
***(here is where I will merely lay out how absurdly limited my future choices are.) ***
(I have thousands and thousands of dollars and as many man hours placed into a product centered around TGEA and it's asset pipeline. )
1. If I continue using the current unfixed TGEA, I can't achieve the set goal @ potential. ( = $ loss )
2. If I pay a programmer to fix the issue, then I am out money to fix something that should not be an issue. ( = $ loss )
3. If I go to a new engine, I lose more money to have everything ported and so on. ( = $ loss )
Either avenue I choose, I will lose money over something that should not be a concern.
I/WE of the community, do not need perfect functionality...but we do need "functionality" and "documentation".
So to finish up...I need something to happen...We-clients as a community NEED something to happen.
-> We have the potential to make GG/IAC sh!tloads of money....just give us the tools.
#6
10/16/2007 (8:59 pm)
You haven't explained what you don't like about the shader system though. If you're talking about the procedural material system, you're right. It's extremely flawed and really only supports basic features. But please, do elaborate on what problems you're experiencing, don't just say it's not working.
#7
With all due respect, and as Matt said, you need to ask specific questions as well as have the background needed to both frame the questions, and understand the answers. I will agree that the specific marketing quote you indicate should be phrased better, and I will bump that up to get it taken care of, but TGE-A is designed as an engine to assist a development team with all the appropriate skills to make games, and those skills required include experienced developers.
For example:
Your profile lists you as an artist. TGE-A is a game engine that requires skills in development (programming, if you will), or at least the ability to learn the minimum necessary development skills to work with complex systems, even if they are abstracted to be as (relatively) simple as possible.
I'm not in any way trying to demean you, or your skill set, please don't take it that way--I'm simply saying that TGE-A was not designed to be able to support game development without programming and programming related skills.
@Matt: I'm not sure how "only supports basic features" is a flaw, since that's exactly what it's supposed to support--generation of shaders to handle basic features, so you don't need to be writing new shaders for basic effects. It's not in any way designed to automagically create super complex shaders for you on the fly--it's simply there to free developers from the more mundane requirements of basic shader capability.
10/16/2007 (9:13 pm)
@ebWith all due respect, and as Matt said, you need to ask specific questions as well as have the background needed to both frame the questions, and understand the answers. I will agree that the specific marketing quote you indicate should be phrased better, and I will bump that up to get it taken care of, but TGE-A is designed as an engine to assist a development team with all the appropriate skills to make games, and those skills required include experienced developers.
For example:
Quote:Both of the things you describe in this quote are provided in the demo. The floating cube shows very simple examples of exactly what you are talking about. Scrolling for example requires simply creating a CustomMaterial mapped to your texture and including the shader in a pass. There are additional shapes in the demo that provide even more complex shader functionality.
This included simple materials comparable to the abilities of the Quake2 engine(scrolling, alphas and such)
Your profile lists you as an artist. TGE-A is a game engine that requires skills in development (programming, if you will), or at least the ability to learn the minimum necessary development skills to work with complex systems, even if they are abstracted to be as (relatively) simple as possible.
I'm not in any way trying to demean you, or your skill set, please don't take it that way--I'm simply saying that TGE-A was not designed to be able to support game development without programming and programming related skills.
@Matt: I'm not sure how "only supports basic features" is a flaw, since that's exactly what it's supposed to support--generation of shaders to handle basic features, so you don't need to be writing new shaders for basic effects. It's not in any way designed to automagically create super complex shaders for you on the fly--it's simply there to free developers from the more mundane requirements of basic shader capability.
#8
Stephen, your post is offensive...no matter it's attempted disguise of "being clever".
Things you should know:
""Assumptions are the mother of all f'ups""
...& you clearly assumed everything about me.
My profile should not be of concern to anyone as I merely fiddle'd with that months and months ago.
My skillset is beyond the limitation of the 3 drop down selections(per a profile) so I hardly see this instance of skill portrayal and illustration as having ANY bearing or relevance to the situation. Thanks you for the attack though.
To extend: You know nothing of me and I do take what you say to be VERY demeaning. You chose to assume things about me and attack me without asking me about my experience or skillset. As for my team: it is a very experienced team.
- Complaining about promised features does not elude "inexperience"...it means that we expect business ethics. We were promised, we want the product promised. (or close means)
To end this section...I would like to add:
Insulting someone followed by "I do not mean to insult you" does not stop the harm or make you appear helpful in the least.
As for my comment about Q2 shader abilities:
The engine@default DOES NOT support multiple scrolling layers at separate directions or speed. THIS IS A FACT.
- I feel that you are calling me a liar and I feel that you are trying to re-focus TGEA's blatent shortcomings onto what you feel is 'my inability to cope'.
TO ALL:
If Stephen had used the time he just spent insulting me, to write documents that should already exist....this problem may have even come to an end.
::sighs:
*shrugs*
May I please have a different employee post here ?
Stephen is clearly no help.
...in fact, did he EVEN TRY to help ? ...
More info for Stephen to ponder:
[url] http://www.garagegames.com/products/torque/tgea/features/shaders/ [/url]
"TGEA has a powerful system which allows developers to simply specify Material properties in order to create advanced shader effects. TGEA then automatically writes its own shaders based on the Material definitions. This "procedurally generated" shader system saves developers a lot of time, dramatically increasing productivity by making it much easier to create advanced, cutting-edge shader effects without a lot of programming or technical know-how.
These procedurally generated shaders are output to the shaders directory, so that you can view the HLSL shader code which TGEA automatically writes. Developers are not limited in least by the shaders in TGEA's automatic shader generation system. The CustomMaterials system allows you to write custom shaders any way you want. You can modify the shaders in TGEA's system, drop in shaders from 3rd party apps (e.g. FX Composer or RenderMonkey) or start from scratch. With TGEA, you can do it all."
....You see Stephen, there are drastic differences between the advertising and your spoken word.
I only expect what I was promised. If it were NOT promised, then I would not be hear complaining.
10/16/2007 (9:31 pm)
Thank you for your replies... now for my retort. (Matt, I must reply to Stephen's horrid post first, my apologies)Stephen, your post is offensive...no matter it's attempted disguise of "being clever".
Things you should know:
""Assumptions are the mother of all f'ups""
...& you clearly assumed everything about me.
My profile should not be of concern to anyone as I merely fiddle'd with that months and months ago.
My skillset is beyond the limitation of the 3 drop down selections(per a profile) so I hardly see this instance of skill portrayal and illustration as having ANY bearing or relevance to the situation. Thanks you for the attack though.
To extend: You know nothing of me and I do take what you say to be VERY demeaning. You chose to assume things about me and attack me without asking me about my experience or skillset. As for my team: it is a very experienced team.
- Complaining about promised features does not elude "inexperience"...it means that we expect business ethics. We were promised, we want the product promised. (or close means)
To end this section...I would like to add:
Insulting someone followed by "I do not mean to insult you" does not stop the harm or make you appear helpful in the least.
As for my comment about Q2 shader abilities:
The engine@default DOES NOT support multiple scrolling layers at separate directions or speed. THIS IS A FACT.
- I feel that you are calling me a liar and I feel that you are trying to re-focus TGEA's blatent shortcomings onto what you feel is 'my inability to cope'.
TO ALL:
If Stephen had used the time he just spent insulting me, to write documents that should already exist....this problem may have even come to an end.
::sighs:
*shrugs*
May I please have a different employee post here ?
Stephen is clearly no help.
...in fact, did he EVEN TRY to help ? ...
More info for Stephen to ponder:
[url] http://www.garagegames.com/products/torque/tgea/features/shaders/ [/url]
"TGEA has a powerful system which allows developers to simply specify Material properties in order to create advanced shader effects. TGEA then automatically writes its own shaders based on the Material definitions. This "procedurally generated" shader system saves developers a lot of time, dramatically increasing productivity by making it much easier to create advanced, cutting-edge shader effects without a lot of programming or technical know-how.
These procedurally generated shaders are output to the shaders directory, so that you can view the HLSL shader code which TGEA automatically writes. Developers are not limited in least by the shaders in TGEA's automatic shader generation system. The CustomMaterials system allows you to write custom shaders any way you want. You can modify the shaders in TGEA's system, drop in shaders from 3rd party apps (e.g. FX Composer or RenderMonkey) or start from scratch. With TGEA, you can do it all."
....You see Stephen, there are drastic differences between the advertising and your spoken word.
I only expect what I was promised. If it were NOT promised, then I would not be hear complaining.
#9
ouch...
With all do due respect, agree or not.. the statement is a complete falsehood.
ouch again...
If I had a dime for every profile that is inaccurate, I think I could quite my job. :P In all seriousness, forum profiles are irrelevent unless you are setting up camp in a given community, or are looking for/to provide services.
No argument there.
to late I think.
I agree, though I'm not sure how this fits into what he's saying, as with the first few quotes I did.
Thats.. kinda like what it says under the features, except the opposite!
10/16/2007 (10:25 pm)
Quote:With all due respect, and as Matt said, you need to ask specific questions as well as have the background needed to both frame the questions, and understand the answers.
ouch...
Quote:I will agree that the specific marketing quote you indicate should be phrased better, and I will bump that up to get it taken care of,
With all do due respect, agree or not.. the statement is a complete falsehood.
Quote:but TGE-A is designed as an engine to assist a development team with all the appropriate skills to make games, and those skills required include experienced developers.
ouch again...
Quote:Your profile lists you as an artist.
If I had a dime for every profile that is inaccurate, I think I could quite my job. :P In all seriousness, forum profiles are irrelevent unless you are setting up camp in a given community, or are looking for/to provide services.
Quote:TGE-A is a game engine that requires skills in development (programming, if you will), or at least the ability to learn the minimum necessary development skills to work with complex systems, even if they are abstracted to be as (relatively) simple as possible.
No argument there.
Quote:I'm not in any way trying to demean you,
to late I think.
Quote:I'm simply saying that TGE-A was not designed to be able to support game development without programming and programming related skills.
I agree, though I'm not sure how this fits into what he's saying, as with the first few quotes I did.
Quote:@Matt: I'm not sure how "only supports basic features" is a flaw, since that's exactly what it's supposed to support--generation of shaders to handle basic features, so you don't need to be writing new shaders for basic effects. It's not in any way designed to automagically create super complex shaders for you on the fly--it's simply there to free developers from the more mundane requirements of basic shader capability.
Thats.. kinda like what it says under the features, except the opposite!
#10
If people don't update their profiles, that's their personal choice. Failure to keep your profile updated may very well result in missing out on contracting opportunities, social networking interaction, as well as serve to mislead people that are attempting to answer questions based upon the perceived experience level and knowledge scope of the poster.
You can tear apart just about anything anyone says if you wish. I can just as easily argue that "advanced shaders" simply means "supports 3.0 pixel/vertex standard", or "supports multi-pass shader generation", or "dynamically creates complex effects by procedural generation of effects self-configured to meet the capabilities of whatever shader version is supported by the run time hardware"--each of which are significantly "advanced" capabilities, and in many cases resulting in extremely advanced shader code.
Or, I could answer the question as it was asked, and address the fact that regardless of the nature or complexity of the shader itself that is generated, procedurally generated shaders are designed as a time saver, not a magical "make my game pretty" button. It's simple fact: shader gen creates shaders, many of which may be very advanced, to support simple feature sets that are very commonly used in many projects, reducing the burden on game developers by removing the need to make multiple levels of fallback for a huge variety of cards for what would otherwise be simple effects.
10/16/2007 (10:37 pm)
Since it's aimed directly at me, and I'm involved with the conversation, I'm not going to moderate your post Andrew, but answer it instead. Were I not involved with the conversation directly, I would have moderated it for being not only not on topic or useful, but intended to promote an emotion based discussion instead of a factual one.If people don't update their profiles, that's their personal choice. Failure to keep your profile updated may very well result in missing out on contracting opportunities, social networking interaction, as well as serve to mislead people that are attempting to answer questions based upon the perceived experience level and knowledge scope of the poster.
You can tear apart just about anything anyone says if you wish. I can just as easily argue that "advanced shaders" simply means "supports 3.0 pixel/vertex standard", or "supports multi-pass shader generation", or "dynamically creates complex effects by procedural generation of effects self-configured to meet the capabilities of whatever shader version is supported by the run time hardware"--each of which are significantly "advanced" capabilities, and in many cases resulting in extremely advanced shader code.
Or, I could answer the question as it was asked, and address the fact that regardless of the nature or complexity of the shader itself that is generated, procedurally generated shaders are designed as a time saver, not a magical "make my game pretty" button. It's simple fact: shader gen creates shaders, many of which may be very advanced, to support simple feature sets that are very commonly used in many projects, reducing the burden on game developers by removing the need to make multiple levels of fallback for a huge variety of cards for what would otherwise be simple effects.
#11
I put money into this guy's paycheck so that he can assume things about me and then insult me ?
...this is hilarious.
// ======
Now for a reply to Matt's post:
Matt, I had thought that the issue of which I spoke about, was a universal one. As I tracked through the forum, it does appear to be that, universal tbh but this could just be my opinion.
Either way, many people have hlsl issues with TGEA. It is *not* just me. Perhaps I am one of the few complaining... because I have the "gawl" to deal with bullies like Stephen.
Anyways...Back on track:
Let me get a little deeper to avoid the obscurity you pointed out.
1. ...the point of implementing shaders.
There are no official docs to allow us to make 100% sense of the shader system without spending days/weeks on end testing, locating, coding and reading.
2. I don't really care about drag and drop shader use from .fx files....even though it would be nice.
I ONLY expect a bit of clarity on this subject and I think that Docs would be a great benefit to many. So I am hear to fight for my cause and for the sake of others who need help but are too afraid to ask.
3. I feel betrayed by the site pretenses which caused me to buy the engine. However, I have fixed loads of issues and added plenty of functionality to the core. Also, I am NOT here to bitch or argue with disgruntled employees. *I simply want to make progress on my project.*
To sum up: I want to avoid spending 2 thousand dollars on man hours to document the engine functionality with shaders. I feel I should NOT need to do this. I feel this should already exist in at least a mildly decent fashion.
What more can I say ? I am merely looking for general docs that will save us time adapting to TGEA.
Thank you Matt and I am sure this post was of no more help than my prior posts. Sorry for that ;) .
My requests are simple.
- I would like notes or docs(as I said I would even BUY them).
- I would like an apology from Stephen Zepp
- and I would like to find out why decals and particles were avoided by shader implementation.
That is all & it [u]is[/u] as simple as that and I will be on my way. I would even make a helpful resource or 2 with the information.
Thanks for reading Matt. ;)
//=
Comments on post by Andrew Brady:
I am glad to verify that I am not the only person that thinks Stephen is condescending. ...& I can't believe he didn't even give the littlest smidgen of help.
- It is such a shame that some people spend so much energy on trying to find things to use in a negative fashion. ....He could have just as easily gone the complete opposite way and to try to 'feign' help...but surely that was too much to ask.
...Sorry Stephen, but that shows quite alot about your character. Maybe you need a vacation/holiday ?
edited: (corrected spelling)
10/16/2007 (10:41 pm)
This needed a separate post:I put money into this guy's paycheck so that he can assume things about me and then insult me ?
...this is hilarious.
// ======
Now for a reply to Matt's post:
Matt, I had thought that the issue of which I spoke about, was a universal one. As I tracked through the forum, it does appear to be that, universal tbh but this could just be my opinion.
Either way, many people have hlsl issues with TGEA. It is *not* just me. Perhaps I am one of the few complaining... because I have the "gawl" to deal with bullies like Stephen.
Anyways...Back on track:
Let me get a little deeper to avoid the obscurity you pointed out.
1. ...the point of implementing shaders.
There are no official docs to allow us to make 100% sense of the shader system without spending days/weeks on end testing, locating, coding and reading.
2. I don't really care about drag and drop shader use from .fx files....even though it would be nice.
I ONLY expect a bit of clarity on this subject and I think that Docs would be a great benefit to many. So I am hear to fight for my cause and for the sake of others who need help but are too afraid to ask.
3. I feel betrayed by the site pretenses which caused me to buy the engine. However, I have fixed loads of issues and added plenty of functionality to the core. Also, I am NOT here to bitch or argue with disgruntled employees. *I simply want to make progress on my project.*
To sum up: I want to avoid spending 2 thousand dollars on man hours to document the engine functionality with shaders. I feel I should NOT need to do this. I feel this should already exist in at least a mildly decent fashion.
What more can I say ? I am merely looking for general docs that will save us time adapting to TGEA.
Thank you Matt and I am sure this post was of no more help than my prior posts. Sorry for that ;) .
My requests are simple.
- I would like notes or docs(as I said I would even BUY them).
- I would like an apology from Stephen Zepp
- and I would like to find out why decals and particles were avoided by shader implementation.
That is all & it [u]is[/u] as simple as that and I will be on my way. I would even make a helpful resource or 2 with the information.
Thanks for reading Matt. ;)
//=
Comments on post by Andrew Brady:
I am glad to verify that I am not the only person that thinks Stephen is condescending. ...& I can't believe he didn't even give the littlest smidgen of help.
- It is such a shame that some people spend so much energy on trying to find things to use in a negative fashion. ....He could have just as easily gone the complete opposite way and to try to 'feign' help...but surely that was too much to ask.
...Sorry Stephen, but that shows quite alot about your character. Maybe you need a vacation/holiday ?
edited: (corrected spelling)
#12
I also pointed out in jest, the difference between what you are saying, and what the features page states. Thats not meant as a personal attack on you, but an observation of whats being advertised.
I do not understand why you keep changing the issue away from what he is saying, and onto a "it ain't broke if you fix it" thing. In any case, this is not my area with TGEA So I will be moving on.
10/16/2007 (11:03 pm)
Moderate what in my post? Nothing I said was inappropriate, off topic in any way, or a personal attack on you. If what I said angers you, I am sorry, But after all, you are the one who seems to have made it an "emotion based" discussion. Now, I did point out several instances where you made HUGE assumptions about eb which turned your answer to him into something belittling and also something I'm not use to seeing from you. I also pointed out in jest, the difference between what you are saying, and what the features page states. Thats not meant as a personal attack on you, but an observation of whats being advertised.
I do not understand why you keep changing the issue away from what he is saying, and onto a "it ain't broke if you fix it" thing. In any case, this is not my area with TGEA So I will be moving on.
#13
10/16/2007 (11:06 pm)
Based on past posting history of both posters in this thread, and the contents of the thread itself, this post is closed. 
Torque Owner David Wilmot
Whats your e-mail address? J/K lol
i'v had all the same problems like the timer and its just the little bits of information that you don't that make's it hard i'v found the only time i get replyed to is when i scream lol
anyhow back to the the point after reading around i found that the PC_ACCUM_TIME dose not output the time as per say tick's i found a resource that dose give you ticks which is the new full screen shader then you should be right with moving texture's, All basic shaders should be right and with a TIME register going, 90% of them shouldn't be to hard to get going without going to the engin code,
The new lighting system (parallax shader) got me to BIG TIME but a member called matt got it going after i saw what he did it's not that hard, i have a copy that i started to add Spec map to seems to work fine but i'm still learning. anyone wants it you can e-mail me at restock76@hotmail.com