Should I buy torque?
by Josh Walton · in Game Design and Creative Issues · 10/13/2007 (10:42 am) · 9 replies
I recently decided I would like to try my hand at game development. I've been an avid gamer my whole life, and a couple of years ago I started playing my first MMORPG. Since then I have played several, and I have some ideas on how make a better one.
I have no illusion that I will be able to create my own MMORPG by myself, but what I would like to do at the minmium, is to have create little test "games" where I could implement my ideas and evaluate them. The main "game" I want to implement is the combat system for the MMORPG I have in my head. Ideally, I would be able to send it to my friends and we could play against each other online.
Would Torque be a good tool for this? From what I've read, Torque is focused on a FPS paradigm, but can be used to create other types of games. My concern is that I will not have enough flexibility with the "rules" to implement what I have envisioned.
Any input will be greatly appreciated!
I have no illusion that I will be able to create my own MMORPG by myself, but what I would like to do at the minmium, is to have create little test "games" where I could implement my ideas and evaluate them. The main "game" I want to implement is the combat system for the MMORPG I have in my head. Ideally, I would be able to send it to my friends and we could play against each other online.
Would Torque be a good tool for this? From what I've read, Torque is focused on a FPS paradigm, but can be used to create other types of games. My concern is that I will not have enough flexibility with the "rules" to implement what I have envisioned.
Any input will be greatly appreciated!
#2
That said, a combination of Torque, AFX, and the MMOWorkshop kit are a great place to get started and will quickly break the FPS rumor. Depending on your combat implementation, you may be able to extend the current one in the MMOWorkshop kit in your direction. But either way, you will have a significant learning curve for the engine and its various extensions (AFX and MMOWorkshop) even if you are a gifted programmer used to learning large codebases.
The "flexibility" is purely dependent on your programming prowess. It truly is a case of "you have the source, you can make it do anything...as long as you are sufficiently able to make it do anything".
Since I'm not sure about your programming prowess, if you are not a programmer, I would strongly recommend starting out by learning C++. Ivort Horton's Beginning C++ and Stephen Prata's C++ Primer Plus are great learning books that are well organized for teaching and learning. It may seem pointless at first since you're not "making your game", but it will help in the longrun because you will be able to read and understand much of the engine source code and pick up TorqueScript (the script language of Torque that is C-styled) and Python (the script language of the MMOWorkshop kit) much more easily and be able to read the scripts and understand the logic since you have a basic understanding of a programming language. Some people think that saying this is overkill, but it will solve 90% of the resource implementation questions or problems that you have as you look through various things others have done and add them into your prototypes (say the advanced camera resource).
Then I would recommend getting The Game Programmer's Guide to Torque and learning how the systems work together. It makes use of TorqueScript extensively and does not touch the engine source, but it gives you a great look at how the engine works and the various pieces fit together.
Then dig in and prototype like crazy. You should have a strong familiarity with the engine and how it works. You should be able to implement a large number of the resources without the common problems that people face. And you should be able to read the source code (C++, TorqueScript, and Python) well enough to grok what is happening. There are, of course, some parts that will be obtuse, but for the large chunks, you will be able to read and "get it".
That's just a little advice from what I've seen in the community and the problems that new developers face in learning a huge codebase.
10/13/2007 (10:59 am)
The first question that I have to ask is what your development experience is currently. Do you have any programming background? The further your idea moves from anything standard in any engine, the more programming prowess you will have to have to prototype and implement it.That said, a combination of Torque, AFX, and the MMOWorkshop kit are a great place to get started and will quickly break the FPS rumor. Depending on your combat implementation, you may be able to extend the current one in the MMOWorkshop kit in your direction. But either way, you will have a significant learning curve for the engine and its various extensions (AFX and MMOWorkshop) even if you are a gifted programmer used to learning large codebases.
The "flexibility" is purely dependent on your programming prowess. It truly is a case of "you have the source, you can make it do anything...as long as you are sufficiently able to make it do anything".
Since I'm not sure about your programming prowess, if you are not a programmer, I would strongly recommend starting out by learning C++. Ivort Horton's Beginning C++ and Stephen Prata's C++ Primer Plus are great learning books that are well organized for teaching and learning. It may seem pointless at first since you're not "making your game", but it will help in the longrun because you will be able to read and understand much of the engine source code and pick up TorqueScript (the script language of Torque that is C-styled) and Python (the script language of the MMOWorkshop kit) much more easily and be able to read the scripts and understand the logic since you have a basic understanding of a programming language. Some people think that saying this is overkill, but it will solve 90% of the resource implementation questions or problems that you have as you look through various things others have done and add them into your prototypes (say the advanced camera resource).
Then I would recommend getting The Game Programmer's Guide to Torque and learning how the systems work together. It makes use of TorqueScript extensively and does not touch the engine source, but it gives you a great look at how the engine works and the various pieces fit together.
Then dig in and prototype like crazy. You should have a strong familiarity with the engine and how it works. You should be able to implement a large number of the resources without the common problems that people face. And you should be able to read the source code (C++, TorqueScript, and Python) well enough to grok what is happening. There are, of course, some parts that will be obtuse, but for the large chunks, you will be able to read and "get it".
That's just a little advice from what I've seen in the community and the problems that new developers face in learning a huge codebase.
#3
When I had a similar idea for making the greatest MMO ever, I had no idea how hard it really is to devote to a single project. So I bought Torque.
It was the greatest purchase of my life. I haven't made any revenue off of it, but out what what I've learned from it, and the fun I've had trying so many different things (most of them blowing up in my face), it's money well spent.
I say go for it.
10/13/2007 (11:05 am)
I'm not great with writing lengthy replies, but I want to make sure you know the difference between wanting to PLAY the ultimate MMO, or MAKE it. When I had a similar idea for making the greatest MMO ever, I had no idea how hard it really is to devote to a single project. So I bought Torque.
It was the greatest purchase of my life. I haven't made any revenue off of it, but out what what I've learned from it, and the fun I've had trying so many different things (most of them blowing up in my face), it's money well spent.
I say go for it.
#4
I do have some programming experience. I studied engineering in college and took some programming classes, and I currently "code" (more like scripting) in Tcl/TK for my job. Unfortunately I have not really worked with any object oriented programming languages. A few weeks ago, when I decided I wanted to do this, I started learning JAVA, but sadly for me it seems that C++ is definitely the way to go for the type of application I want to develop.
How well is the source code documented? From my experience, if the code isn't well documented or commented, it can be almost impossible to modify or use it for your own applications. Have you attempted to use or modify the source code for your own use? If so could you tell me a little bit about your experience doing so?
10/13/2007 (11:21 am)
Wow, thanks for the post! That sounds like great advice, and along the lines of what I was thinking about doing.I do have some programming experience. I studied engineering in college and took some programming classes, and I currently "code" (more like scripting) in Tcl/TK for my job. Unfortunately I have not really worked with any object oriented programming languages. A few weeks ago, when I decided I wanted to do this, I started learning JAVA, but sadly for me it seems that C++ is definitely the way to go for the type of application I want to develop.
How well is the source code documented? From my experience, if the code isn't well documented or commented, it can be almost impossible to modify or use it for your own applications. Have you attempted to use or modify the source code for your own use? If so could you tell me a little bit about your experience doing so?
#5
I hope I'm going to enjoy it as much as it sounds like you are!
Thanks for the reply!
10/13/2007 (11:36 am)
Max, yeah, I am typically overly ambitious in what I think I can actually accomplish, but I believe I have realistic goals for this project. I do not want to create an entire game (maybe eventually), but my real goal is to have a sandbox to play around with all the ideas I have in my head. I want to see if I could really make a better game than those out on the market like I think I can lol. I hope I'm going to enjoy it as much as it sounds like you are!
Thanks for the reply!
#6
Rare to hear someone (else) that uses TCL in their profession--I used it myself extensively for several years in a past career--healthcare integration consulting.
Given your background and experience level, I personally would suggest trying out the TGB and TGE demo, and get a feel for what is appropriate for you. As someone getting started with game development in general, TGB is a great place to start, and has a pretty natural evolution to the much more complex world of TGE (3D capability).
10/13/2007 (6:48 pm)
Quote:
(more like scripting) in Tcl/TK for my job
Rare to hear someone (else) that uses TCL in their profession--I used it myself extensively for several years in a past career--healthcare integration consulting.
Given your background and experience level, I personally would suggest trying out the TGB and TGE demo, and get a feel for what is appropriate for you. As someone getting started with game development in general, TGB is a great place to start, and has a pretty natural evolution to the much more complex world of TGE (3D capability).
#7
Hah, and I thought only the extremely modern and cutting edge defense industry used Tcl.
10/13/2007 (8:09 pm)
Quote:Rare to hear someone (else) that uses TCL in their profession
Hah, and I thought only the extremely modern and cutting edge defense industry used Tcl.
#8
10/13/2007 (8:24 pm)
Actually, TCL was just about literally perfect for what we used it for--translating data sets from one protocol to another. Extremely efficient and effective to use, if a bit hard to debug. Lists and Keyed Lists are some of the most awesome data manipulation structures I've ever used ;)
#9
10/13/2007 (8:46 pm)
TCL really isn't that bad, but you'd laugh if you saw how we used I bet. 
Torque Owner Josh Walton
www.mmoworkshop.com/trac/mom/wiki/FAQ.
This answered my question that yes, I could use Torque for what I want to do.