Long time game developer/New Torque member
by Chris Willis · in General Discussion · 05/07/2007 (9:48 am) · 16 replies
Hello everyone,
My name is Chris, I'm an artist who has worked in game development for about 14 years. I 've seen this site around for some time and recently my friends and I have considered purchasing a torque license to flesh out a game idea we have. We all were actually working at Sierra Online ( Oakhurst offices ) when Dynamix released Tribes, so its kind of cool to think that we could be using an iteration of that engine all these years later.
It looks to have all the needed tools and abilities you would expect from an Unreal license but at a fraction of the cost, which is perfect for creating a prototype games to present for publishing. I have used a few editors myself ( unreal , unreal 3, half life, the old build engine, battlefield 1942 ) and after looking at the torque demo it seems pretty straight forward.
How would you guys discribe your experiences making games using Torque? mainly your general feelings about using it. We are 99% sure we are going to buy this license and will find out alot for ourselves, but I still like to hear what experienced people have to say.
Thank you
-Chris
My name is Chris, I'm an artist who has worked in game development for about 14 years. I 've seen this site around for some time and recently my friends and I have considered purchasing a torque license to flesh out a game idea we have. We all were actually working at Sierra Online ( Oakhurst offices ) when Dynamix released Tribes, so its kind of cool to think that we could be using an iteration of that engine all these years later.
It looks to have all the needed tools and abilities you would expect from an Unreal license but at a fraction of the cost, which is perfect for creating a prototype games to present for publishing. I have used a few editors myself ( unreal , unreal 3, half life, the old build engine, battlefield 1942 ) and after looking at the torque demo it seems pretty straight forward.
How would you guys discribe your experiences making games using Torque? mainly your general feelings about using it. We are 99% sure we are going to buy this license and will find out alot for ourselves, but I still like to hear what experienced people have to say.
Thank you
-Chris
#2
Again, thank you for your comments.
05/07/2007 (9:24 pm)
Thank you for replying. Yes both the TGA and TGEA seem very complete. I can't wait to purchase this engine and begin playing with the editor and the shader tools. Most likely we'll be getting the TGEA for the advanced shaders.Again, thank you for your comments.
#3
(My main reason behind this is that maybe we can scratch each others backs).
Please review:
www.garagegames.com/mg/forums/result.thread.php?qt=61775
(( I too have worked with several game editors, several engines and I am employed within the industry but I am not skilled enough to replace the core normal map HLSL within this engine. The above LINK will explain more ))
Other than that issue, I think they have a pretty decent product and I almost ready to buy with confidence.
05/07/2007 (9:43 pm)
I have not yet bought a TGEA license as I am curious about something that I think you should be aware of...(My main reason behind this is that maybe we can scratch each others backs).
Please review:
www.garagegames.com/mg/forums/result.thread.php?qt=61775
(( I too have worked with several game editors, several engines and I am employed within the industry but I am not skilled enough to replace the core normal map HLSL within this engine. The above LINK will explain more ))
Other than that issue, I think they have a pretty decent product and I almost ready to buy with confidence.
#4
Anyways, point is, as long as you have some really good programmers who are willing to rip apart the engine code by code to learn it's workings without proper documentation then great (though I think they are finally working on proper documentation). I am not a coder, and all the reviews and hype behind TGE led me to believe that it was a artist friendly engine where I will be able to design 'most' of my game without doing a lot of coding (though I know I need to do that anyway).
But, you will find good help from developers and community so it helps a lot in the end. Plus I learned a lot from this and with great tools like constructor (you can compare it to a mix of 3dsMax and Doom3 editor/Q3radiant) you can do anything with the editor now.
I am of course talking about TGE here, I am not interested in TGEA at the moment.
05/07/2007 (10:37 pm)
TGE is more than capable of making good looking games and if you have a good texture artist then you can pretty much 'fake' even normal mapping without adding anything to the code. But then, I don't think I need to tell that to you :PAnyways, point is, as long as you have some really good programmers who are willing to rip apart the engine code by code to learn it's workings without proper documentation then great (though I think they are finally working on proper documentation). I am not a coder, and all the reviews and hype behind TGE led me to believe that it was a artist friendly engine where I will be able to design 'most' of my game without doing a lot of coding (though I know I need to do that anyway).
But, you will find good help from developers and community so it helps a lot in the end. Plus I learned a lot from this and with great tools like constructor (you can compare it to a mix of 3dsMax and Doom3 editor/Q3radiant) you can do anything with the editor now.
I am of course talking about TGE here, I am not interested in TGEA at the moment.
#5
05/08/2007 (7:16 am)
@ Eric, yes I'm pretty sure that normal maps and transparency don't function the same way as they do in your example engine. Black in alpha to my knowledge represents fully transparent and shouldn't be included for a normal, although i think thats fairly standard for many engines (i'm no expert though). I've seen some spectacular normal maps running in tgea and haven't indicated what you've provided to be the case, it may just be the way you have it setup. Hopefully someone with some better understanding will pop in and help out.
#6
Looks like they use PNG's, I've never worked with PNG's myself but after doing a test I can see why they use them. Its quite a texture memory savings. I currently work with the Unreal3 engine and we are using TGA's and are constantly running out of texture space on our maps. That said I don't know why they chose to have alpha in some of those maps other than thinking they are just using it to save on normal texture information and just allowing the diffuse image to show through. I'm no programmer either and this is just my guess. Seems smart in my thinking and is another way to imagine making textures that I hadn't thought of before. Then again I could completely wrong here.
seperate issue,
The other good thing about this engine it appears, is the TDN community. You would think that after spending 700k on an engine as well known as the UNREAL engine, you'd get great documentation, but you really don't. Unreal uses something called the UDN ( unreal developer network ), sound familiar? Its the same concept as the TDN, it uses developers to help one another out at a savings to EPIC games. I'd much rather use this engine than be out 700k for a name on the box :). Most developers never find that out until after they have licenced the UNREAL engine. I've worked for two companies that made that mistake.
05/08/2007 (8:49 am)
Thanks Eric,Looks like they use PNG's, I've never worked with PNG's myself but after doing a test I can see why they use them. Its quite a texture memory savings. I currently work with the Unreal3 engine and we are using TGA's and are constantly running out of texture space on our maps. That said I don't know why they chose to have alpha in some of those maps other than thinking they are just using it to save on normal texture information and just allowing the diffuse image to show through. I'm no programmer either and this is just my guess. Seems smart in my thinking and is another way to imagine making textures that I hadn't thought of before. Then again I could completely wrong here.
seperate issue,
The other good thing about this engine it appears, is the TDN community. You would think that after spending 700k on an engine as well known as the UNREAL engine, you'd get great documentation, but you really don't. Unreal uses something called the UDN ( unreal developer network ), sound familiar? Its the same concept as the TDN, it uses developers to help one another out at a savings to EPIC games. I'd much rather use this engine than be out 700k for a name on the box :). Most developers never find that out until after they have licenced the UNREAL engine. I've worked for two companies that made that mistake.
#7
This is a false positive. It does not matter if you use PNG or TGA because textures are uploaded as raw bitmaps into video memory (with the exception of the DirectX format I guess [which name escapes me atm]). The only savings you will see is on the media which holds your game.
05/08/2007 (9:58 am)
Quote:
Looks like they use PNG's, I've never worked with PNG's myself but after doing a test I can see why they use them. Its quite a texture memory savings. I currently work with the Unreal3 engine and we are using TGA's and are constantly running out of texture space on our maps.
This is a false positive. It does not matter if you use PNG or TGA because textures are uploaded as raw bitmaps into video memory (with the exception of the DirectX format I guess [which name escapes me atm]). The only savings you will see is on the media which holds your game.
#9
Which was Xbox. I neglected to mention that. So if its a 3000k TGA versus a 300k PNG it all gets shot down to an X size DDS? Therefore the original file size doesn't matter? Is this what you are saying?
05/08/2007 (1:24 pm)
Quote:The only savings you will see is on the media which holds your game.
Which was Xbox. I neglected to mention that. So if its a 3000k TGA versus a 300k PNG it all gets shot down to an X size DDS? Therefore the original file size doesn't matter? Is this what you are saying?
#10
There are compressed texture formats available, most notably the DXT formats, e.g. DXT1, DXT3, DXT5. Each of these formats loads a compressed texture into VRAM, using less VRAM than an uncompressed texture. Generally speaking the DXT3 and DXT5 formats require one byte of VRAM per pixel, while DXT1 requires 0.5 bytes per pixel.
TGE can compress texture as they are loaded into VRAM using a default compression technique defined by the GPU driver. However this is a simple toggle, you either compress all textures or none at all. TGEA supports compressed textures loaded from DDS files, which is, as far as I know, the only file format that supports compressed textures.
Hopefully that cleared things up and wasn't too confusing.
05/08/2007 (1:48 pm)
The filesize of the texture dictates how much space it will occupy on the harddrive/CD/download/whatever. It has absolutely no relevance to the amount of VRAM (video memory) the texture will occupy. An uncompressed texture, which is what you'll get if you use JPG, PNG, TGA, or anything other than DDS really, will require 4 bytes of VRAM per pixel if you're using 24 or 32 bit color (Most GPUs do not natively support 24 bit RGB textures, they're padded with an additional byte).There are compressed texture formats available, most notably the DXT formats, e.g. DXT1, DXT3, DXT5. Each of these formats loads a compressed texture into VRAM, using less VRAM than an uncompressed texture. Generally speaking the DXT3 and DXT5 formats require one byte of VRAM per pixel, while DXT1 requires 0.5 bytes per pixel.
TGE can compress texture as they are loaded into VRAM using a default compression technique defined by the GPU driver. However this is a simple toggle, you either compress all textures or none at all. TGEA supports compressed textures loaded from DDS files, which is, as far as I know, the only file format that supports compressed textures.
Hopefully that cleared things up and wasn't too confusing.
#11
Thanks Alex
This got alittle off topic, but was interesting none the less.
05/08/2007 (3:17 pm)
Crystal clear, completely understood :) Thanks Alex
This got alittle off topic, but was interesting none the less.
#12
05/08/2007 (5:11 pm)
I'm using ogre3D with parallax offser normal mapping shader and we use the alpha of the normal map as a height map. I don't know how Torques normal mapping and materials work but perhaps you have some shader parameters set up incorrectly giving you the strange black areas? 
#13
I've spent most of my time with torque.... Learning HOW to use it and fighting the exporters.
That's like 5 years.
Besides, that it's been alright.
05/08/2007 (5:17 pm)
I'm not a competent programmer. SO i'll state my experiences.I've spent most of my time with torque.... Learning HOW to use it and fighting the exporters.
That's like 5 years.
Besides, that it's been alright.
#14
05/08/2007 (7:55 pm)
Chris torque is a great engine and I've had alot of fun with it. If you have programming experience, there's almost no limits to what you can do with it.
#15
Ogre3d is strictly just a rendering engine as far as I know. My firends and I are trying to put together a proof of concept and need a product a bit more polished with the tools to make what passes as a game.
We've looked at Devmasters.net and out of most of the engines there Torque "seems " to have what we need. Sense our game is an FPS at its core we are looking for an engine that works well in that genre. The style that we are using isn't relying on realism so while the per pixel shading stuff is cool, but its mainly just alot icing and window dressing for us. It helps sell an idea and make pretty art a little prettier. :)
Ramen-sama,
When you say you've spent most of your time with Torque, have you played with other engines as well and if so what would you say compares to Torque? 5 years is along time, thats why I ask.
Sean H. ,
Thats good to know. One of my friend involved has programming experience so I'm hoping he'll be able to get up to speed relatively fast once we get things going.
Thank you guys for the comments by the way.
05/09/2007 (8:40 am)
Adrian,Ogre3d is strictly just a rendering engine as far as I know. My firends and I are trying to put together a proof of concept and need a product a bit more polished with the tools to make what passes as a game.
We've looked at Devmasters.net and out of most of the engines there Torque "seems " to have what we need. Sense our game is an FPS at its core we are looking for an engine that works well in that genre. The style that we are using isn't relying on realism so while the per pixel shading stuff is cool, but its mainly just alot icing and window dressing for us. It helps sell an idea and make pretty art a little prettier. :)
Ramen-sama,
When you say you've spent most of your time with Torque, have you played with other engines as well and if so what would you say compares to Torque? 5 years is along time, thats why I ask.
Sean H. ,
Thats good to know. One of my friend involved has programming experience so I'm hoping he'll be able to get up to speed relatively fast once we get things going.
Thank you guys for the comments by the way.
#16
Only thing tricky to get done in Ogre is good MP, but input, audion, collisions and physics are all pretty straight forward. There are 5 physics libs that plug right it, Ageia physx, ODE, Newton etc. Couple of solutions for input, sound, and paging terrains, GUI libs etc.
So it you have at least one competent coder its not that hard to get a decent solution together in a short time.
BTW Ogre has the best fixed function support of any render engine, its very impressive with 100% support from within 3ds max if you use Ofusion, it creates the scripts for you :) so very artist friendly. And custom material techniques allow you to set your own materials for different hardware, or use LOD materials.
http://www.ofusiontechnologies.com/
05/09/2007 (9:20 am)
Yeah it is primarily a render engine, but its easy enough to make a game engine out of it, especialy with all the avaliable addons, and the fantastic WYSIWYG 3dsmax based world editing and export features if you have the budget to support it.Only thing tricky to get done in Ogre is good MP, but input, audion, collisions and physics are all pretty straight forward. There are 5 physics libs that plug right it, Ageia physx, ODE, Newton etc. Couple of solutions for input, sound, and paging terrains, GUI libs etc.
So it you have at least one competent coder its not that hard to get a decent solution together in a short time.
BTW Ogre has the best fixed function support of any render engine, its very impressive with 100% support from within 3ds max if you use Ofusion, it creates the scripts for you :) so very artist friendly. And custom material techniques allow you to set your own materials for different hardware, or use LOD materials.
http://www.ofusiontechnologies.com/
Torque Owner Jason Lee
G'luck!