Future of Torque on Linux

#1 No thread like this is complete without a link to Linux Expectation Management.

Specifically, this part:

Quote: Third. Linux does not love back. Too many distros. Much incompatibility. Moving target. Not much community support from Linux users coming back to Torque. Little to no revenue (less than 3% of what we do). Little to no love from the Linux community for our efforts.

In retrospect, and right now, I feel this isn't really a fair appraisal of the situation. Where I work right now, we support pretty much all distributions, with software considerably more complex in its external-to-itself requirements. And it works fine for us.

I also feel that "Little to no love from the linux community" isn't fair. Right now, I could browse to the linux forums and find many patches from linux users to make Torque actually work. Any negativity is associated with the fact that torque's linux support is just lacking.


Honestly, it seems to me that the community of Linux users is strong enough that it provides fixes for pretty much any problem that manifests in Linux TGE. Someone at GG needs to take the couple hours it takes to roll community-provided fixes into GG's internal SCM. But since this has consistently not been happening [X11_KeyToUnicode, no-newline-at-end-of-file], I'm not anticipating that changing.

The most depressing part of it all is that there's changes that should be made to the codebase just for general healthy-code-sanity reasons [like these]... changes that would be beneficial to windows Torque too, in the long run. It's sad that these haven't been rolled in for the benefit of a product that supports windows, let alone other platforms with stricter compilers.

Anyways. In case it's not obvious, I'm in a generally bad mood about GG's linux support.

Gary (-;

#2 Gary--if any of those sales could even come close to simply paying for the work that needs to be done, we'd possibly be interested.

Unfortunately, they don't.

#3 I am not a programer, or a real computer person. My backround is finance, research and sales, yes two extremes, it fits. You can not break out just linux sales by itself. How many people bought Torque because of its abilty to port to linux? I know I did. Seriouse, have you seen the popularity of linux with, Ubuntu and others. Maybe if GG was known for its helpfulness and wanting to be part of the linux community they would have increased sales.

#4

Quote:
Maybe if GG was known for its helpfulness and wanting to be part of the linux community they would have increased sales.

Not to be rude or anything, but we actively supported linux for almost 6 years. Being a finance and sales guy, you should be well aware that when:

1) Your target market (linux) refuses to buy games made for linux ("linux should be FREE!!!"),
2) You spend literally hundreds of thousands of dollars on marketing for linux, only to be told multiple times that you have to re-work your product for each year's worth of "flavor of the month" OS to stay up to speed,
3) Your sales of games on linux platforms (both direct, and 3rd party such as Dark Horizons: Lore) are less than the salary plus benefits of a single linux qualified engineer per year, and
4) a very large majority of the gaming population that uses linux already double boots to Windows to play games,

that it's not a financially feasible effort.

We put in the time and effort to be a linux compatible platform from the beginning--it was one of the fundamental design requirements, but it simply has not been a financially supportable development path.

And that's coming from an old school linux guy.

#5 One thing that has always bugged me about those figures - how do they get them? There's no question asking "So, what platform you buying torque for?" There's been no poll of any sort in the 4 years I've been hanging around here. With dell offering native Linux desktop installs soon, it will be very hard to just ignore the growing marketshare.

Here's the biggest problem - a severe lack of communication between gg and the community contributors. It takes an act of congress just to get them to respond to emails. There has been no confirmation of work submitted has been received - needless to stay that has to happen before confirmation that changes have been accepted. Even then, there's no telling when that package will get pushed to the public.
How do you change that? I dunno.. I've tried, many times.
Back when TGE was being handled by Ron, I setup a mailing list for T2D linux developers to trade patches. Just didn't take, people still wanted to see official releases from GarageGames directly.
I still think the best option is for the Linux developers out there is to actually use a mailing list and share patches. Anyone who has worked on a open source project knows that's just how you do things. If you're using Torque on Linux for a commercial venture like I am then you're either going to have to make all the changes yourself or collaborate with people in the same position. Waiting around for a random forum post to be answered or for GG to release what you've probably already fixed yourself isn't the way to go.
If you're a hobbyist, then you've got what you paid for - a engine that *can* run on linux. You've got the source code and time on your hands. Take that time, learn how to code and make it work.
If you're a professional wanting to make games for Linux and -here's the biggie- want to trade useful patches with other professionals wanting to make games for Linux then join the mailing list.


With that said - here's my problem with noob linux users..
This guy should not be trying to compile torque on linux. You have to know an os before you can do programming type things on an os. Jumping right from installing the latest version of InsertLinuxDistroHere to trying to build Torque isn't the way to do things. This is not a representation of the Linux community.
Walk before you run and don't expect all your questions to be answered with a 100 dollar price tag.

#6 I'm honestly not trying to get anyone's dander up here--we know it's frustrating for you, and quite honestly it's frustrating for us as well.

We're a business however, and the margin we make on Torque engines and games is so small as it is that we cannot afford to fund an employee for linux, or even have a non-linux specialist organize community efforts without that work generating an appropriate amount of revenue...and it just has been proven to not be financially responsible in the past.

#7 Email heading your way Stephen..

#8 Yeah, I purchased the engine because it works with Linux ^^. I feel disappointed, but I understand.

#9 Yes, I do understand your plight. Yes, I am aware that GG has offered linux for some time. Point was that you can not take break linux out. Thats the wonderfull thing about data it allows you to see what has happened in the past. Please use it as a guide, not a deciding factor. Those numbers don't take into account the abilty to port to linux, etc. Plus, being a gamer, tank addict, I have seen the number of linux users triple in the past year. It's still a small number, but it is growing thanks to the changes of the whole linux community. GG was just a little early to the party ;). Without linux what will developers run thier game servers with, (heh).

#10 I also chose Torque for its Linux port. While I understand that GG does not make enough money from Linux to hire a Linux coder, there should be *someone* who can commit the community's changes into the tree so we don't have to apply "The Linux Patch" (which contiues to grow) for every point release. The argument that GG can't afford a Linux coder doesn't really apply in this instance (IMO) because the community is posting fixes to the forums. All we (I, anyway) ask is that these changes eventually make their way into the tree.

GG should chose one of the Linux guys that are always posting fixes (maybe give them "associate" status), allow them to review changes and submit a clean patch to be commited back to the tree.

#11 >Linux coder, there should be *someone* who can commit the community's changes into the tree so we don't have to apply "The Linux Patch"

I currently have that role, but like I said - no communication.

#12 I just wanted to chime in a bit about Dark Horizons Lore Invasion and Linux.

1. Although our Linux sales weren't spectacular for your typical Linux OSes, our sales on Linspire through their Click and Run store were pretty darned good, better than our Mac sales in fact. As such, people can knock Linspire all they want, but IMHO this is one of the best Linux companies around, especially with how they provide and end to end solution for the end user.

2. While most Linux gaming sites treated us like crap and wouldn't give us the time of day (they appeared happier to focus on less feature rich games that were free and/or open source) Linspire on the other hand took it upon themselves to market and promote the game to its own community. Cudos to the company for knowing full well that they need to feed the machine that keeps them going, I wish more Linux companies and sites realized this.

3. Linspire also offered some additional support and services to us because they liked our game and wanted to prmote it. This included helping us test the game on their systems and ensure that it was very compatible.

4. We (as in MGT) don't actually have a "Linux" guy per say who all he does is Linux work. Instead we have a few developers who are experianced with Windows and/or OSX and/or Linux. This expertise allows us to stay more nimble.


Lastly, I just want to say, if you want to support Linux, go with Linspire first. They've been a great company to deal with and probably one of the better partners we have ever had to work with. I know for a fact that we here at MGT will continue to want to support Linspire because it has paid off well for us.

#13

Quote:1) Your target market (linux) refuses to buy games made for linux ("linux should be FREE!!!"),
4) a very large majority of the gaming population that uses linux already double boots to Windows to play games

Mouthbreathing idiots who don't understand the difference between Free [as in speech] and free [as in beer]. This has always been a problem, and is linked to point four. It was a problem back when Loki were in business, and it's a problem now. I don't have anything I can usefully say to this, except these are the same people who don't read FAQs, and email support@whatever as their first recourse.

I think it's worth noting that everyone who's able to comment on this forum has given GG 100 or 150 dollars for the ability to read this.

Quote:2) You spend literally hundreds of thousands of dollars on marketing for linux, only to be told multiple times that you have to re-work your product for each year's worth of "flavor of the month" OS to stay up to speed,

This still gets me. My personal experience is that, especially in something as cleanly self-contained as torque, this isn't a problem. At work, our software tightly integrates with other system components in linux, and we're successfully supporting every flavor of every month, and have been for four years. We also support six other flavors of unix. Gentoo is a discussion for another day, and thankfully has finally fallen by the wayside.

The thing about torque especially is that the way it's set up is /fabulous/. It's my dream getup for writing cross platform games. A torque game is completely self-contained in its own directory.

Set up your linker appropriately, and your game will continue to run for years on many distributions. I can /still/ shoehorn several loki games onto modern distributions using only what comes in that distribtion's package manager.

Quote:3) Your sales of games on linux platforms (both direct, and 3rd party such as Dark Horizons: Lore) are less than the salary plus benefits of a single linux qualified engineer per year, and

Or looking at it from my perspective, I do all my development on mac and linux, and later make it run on windows. It's just a development methodology that works best for *this* developer. The entire basis of using Torque is that it doesn't take a single qualified linux engineer to make it work, just like it doesn't take a single qualified windows engineer to make it work.


Admittedly, in the end, I'm another of those people who's never actually shipped a game using torque, so it's hard to validate any of what I'm saying. I've shipped other software for linux and unix, but our system/business model/process was never quite the same as a single self-contained game.


Currently it feels like I purchased torque because it runs on Linux, and am putting in a lot of effort to keep it running on linux. I post patches and fixes to the forums every time I can, and they're never committed. The linux community is *there*, on the GG forums. The linux community is *providing fixes*, on the GG forums. And then the linux community gets quietly and completely ignored. Like here. The linux community has a big single coherent list of problems, and fixes. Ignored.

Maybe if what people were asking was for GG to hire an engineer, that would be one thing. Currently all I'm asking is that the hard work I put in making someone else's commercial product actually execute, on systems they officially support, doesn't just get ignored.

Gary (-;

#14 :. I would like to think that all this was about money because many of us would say: "hey, I have 10 box in my pocket, please take it and keep being a reference when we talk about making games on Linux... I will sustain that effort for the time being until Linux market grow largely enough for keeping itself. You did it for 6 years, but not anymore, have you ever heard that victory is three steps further from the point where you stopped? Pray do say what is necessary and I will try doing my best."

:. I also would like to think that all this was about lack of communication as well. There are forums dedicated to the matter. The problems are all known and the new ones are quickly reported. GG can hear our claims clearly enough. So, communication does exist, but not in the sense that is regarded.

:. I think that is a matter of will-power and organization. GG has many excelent products, skilled guys at working, very nice ideas and a lot of people willing to contribute. I do not know about the people on the Windows side, but normally people using Linux are moved by passion, curiosity and challenge. Obviously all of us must make a living but it should not be the main goal, the money will follow, hopefully.

:. I would like to thank GG's representant for his words on this subject. Also, many thanks indeed to the guys from the Linux Community. I feel I am not alone. We can still use Torque but whithout a proper support from GG I think it will grow harder every day. In the end we will be more concerned about compiling and running Torque than making our own games. We could certainly do many things to help GG to keep Linux Torque up-to-date, but they have to want it first.

Roque

#15

Quote:
Maybe if what people were asking was for GG to hire an engineer, that would be one thing. Currently all I'm asking is that the hard work I put in making someone else's commercial product actually execute, on systems they officially support, doesn't just get ignored.

Gary (-;

Well said, sir. Very well said.

#16

Quote:As such, people can knock Linspire all they want, but IMHO this is one of the best Linux companies around, especially with how they provide and end to end solution for the end user.

Thanks for the info, they may have a new costumer. I think its great that they did all that for you. I gave them a quick look and it looks as though they have a pretty nice product that is very user friendly. Gona give the Freespire a shot and make sure it fits my brain then probably pay for it. I love kubuntu and this looks a lot like that.

Anyone else thinking what I am thinking? ( no not that) Wonder if they would be interested in adding any other torque games. If so maybe GG would be happy to start supporting Linux a bit more using Linspire. (sorry sales guy likes to point out obvious)

#17

Quote:Gona give the Freespire a shot and make sure it fits my brain then probably pay for it. I love kubuntu and this looks a lot like that.

Freespire won't cost you a cent. Only Linspire costs money. Ubuntu will soon have CNR as well. They are expanding that system to other distros, with Ubuntu being the first. The basic CNR system is also free.

Quote:Wonder if they would be interested in adding any other torque games.

They do have other TGE games in there... Orbz, Think Tanks & Marble Blast. Marble Blast Gold is free in CNR. When it was first put in the CNB (Click 'N Buy) system, it was the first commercial game there from reading what was posted on this site.

#18 Hmm...a little worried here cuz I was going to run all my dedicated servers for my game on Linux. Is that a bad idea?

#19 No its still a gret cost-effective idea if you plan on ever hosting a dedicated server (either locally or via a server farm). We still do our own Linux builds at MGT just for this purpose.

I was actually thinking its too bad that there is no "generic" Linux build going that comes with a warning tag of "This has only been tested on ABC distro, it may or may not work on other distros and as such is recommended for serious programmers and Linux enthusiasts only, use at your own risk!" Why might you ask? Well the simple fact is that (and as other have pointed out) even if Linux game sales aren't shit hot, there is still a strong need for Linux builds for dedicated server hosting. So getting an official build that is part way there would do a lot for a lot of teams with this regards.

#20 It's always seemed to me that linux dedicated servers are just generally better-behaved beasts than windows dedicated servers. If you're writing a multiplayer game that can be dedicated hosted, it's a good idea to have a linux build for the job.

I mean, hell... even big name games have dedicated servers on linux; Half-life. Tribes2. Prey. Far Cry. Call of Duty. Tribes2. Unreal Tournament. Tribes2.

I can't find the reference immediately, but I remember a while ago, someone important [at Epic or ID or something] saying that linux dedicated servers had been a huge factor in mass adoption of a couple multiplayer games.

Gary (-;