Thoughts, hopes, dreams ;)
by notman · in Constructor · 04/11/2007 (6:45 pm) · 15 replies
I want to start by saying I'm glad to see this tool finally become available. Torque has been needing a boost like this and I think offering it for free was a great choice to help improve the community.
Now, I know things are still really in a beta/new stage, but I'm going list things I would like to see added and prioritize them. If any of these already exist, please ignore the request and share with my how to do it ;)
Thoughts:
*There should be a way to select edges
*You should be able to delete edges, vertices, and faces
*The vertices should be weldible
*Why can't you import dif files?
*Export selection only (In case you want to export your design in pieces)
*Slice should only slice when I click activate/make (It was slicing when I didn't want it to)
Hopes:
*Extrude
*Hinge from edge
*Chamfer (Especially if edge control is added)
*Use any texture, no 2X restriction
Dreams:
*Import DTS, then export it as DIF
*Import other common 3d modeling formats such as 3ds files
*More prefab shapes
*Bend or follow path
Just a quick list of things from the top of my head. All meant to be constructive criticism since I understand how hard it is just to come up with what you have now.
The only additional comment I have is that the slice tool has made a mess of my mesh work at times. It's hard to explain, but I would end up with three vertices in one location after a slice. A vertice would appear at the new edge intersection as it should, but an edge would now exist between it and a vertice on the other side of my mesh (inside). When I selected and moved the vertice, more than one vertice would exist next to the other vertice. I wish I had taken a screenshot, it would make more sense that way ;)
That's it for now
Now, I know things are still really in a beta/new stage, but I'm going list things I would like to see added and prioritize them. If any of these already exist, please ignore the request and share with my how to do it ;)
Thoughts:
*There should be a way to select edges
*You should be able to delete edges, vertices, and faces
*The vertices should be weldible
*Why can't you import dif files?
*Export selection only (In case you want to export your design in pieces)
*Slice should only slice when I click activate/make (It was slicing when I didn't want it to)
Hopes:
*Extrude
*Hinge from edge
*Chamfer (Especially if edge control is added)
*Use any texture, no 2X restriction
Dreams:
*Import DTS, then export it as DIF
*Import other common 3d modeling formats such as 3ds files
*More prefab shapes
*Bend or follow path
Just a quick list of things from the top of my head. All meant to be constructive criticism since I understand how hard it is just to come up with what you have now.
The only additional comment I have is that the slice tool has made a mess of my mesh work at times. It's hard to explain, but I would end up with three vertices in one location after a slice. A vertice would appear at the new edge intersection as it should, but an edge would now exist between it and a vertice on the other side of my mesh (inside). When I selected and moved the vertice, more than one vertice would exist next to the other vertice. I wish I had taken a screenshot, it would make more sense that way ;)
That's it for now
#2
It also reminded me, when I created a cone and started to add sides, I started getting funny polys when I added over 15 sides. I don't know if they were just getting reversed, transparent, or overlapping, but that appeared to be my limit of sides (the sides stopped splitting into smaller portions).
04/11/2007 (7:12 pm)
I don't know much about how a 'brush based' editor differs from a program such as 3ds Max or Maya, but my main thought with deleting them was to eliminate the mess I referenced above when I sliced my mesh. I could have removed the extra edges that appeared. Then again, I would probably want the ability to create new polys/faces if I could delete pieces.It also reminded me, when I created a cone and started to add sides, I started getting funny polys when I added over 15 sides. I don't know if they were just getting reversed, transparent, or overlapping, but that appeared to be my limit of sides (the sides stopped splitting into smaller portions).
#3
Brush based editors use closed convex "brushes" to build their geometry rather than poly/line/vertex editing. We added some really basic vertex editing to Constructor to help people push their brushes into convex shapes that would be hard to reach otherwise but you can not use Constructor like a normal modelling program and expect it to perform correctly.
Perhaps you should read this essential document before progressing any further with Constructor:
What is the difference between Concave and Convex?
04/11/2007 (8:24 pm)
There are huge differences between a brush based editor and other programs like 3D Studio Max and Maya!Brush based editors use closed convex "brushes" to build their geometry rather than poly/line/vertex editing. We added some really basic vertex editing to Constructor to help people push their brushes into convex shapes that would be hard to reach otherwise but you can not use Constructor like a normal modelling program and expect it to perform correctly.
Perhaps you should read this essential document before progressing any further with Constructor:
What is the difference between Concave and Convex?
#4
And i recall a few times with UED that i would inadvertently delete a vertice.
Both are great ways to mess things up, and if you dont know what you did, many hours could be wasted seeking what went wrong...
04/11/2007 (9:02 pm)
One may delete faces with QUARK, its a nice way to make one, lets say SOUTH direction FACE, be shared amount its neighbors SOUTH direction FACE, so one do not end up with this.And i recall a few times with UED that i would inadvertently delete a vertice.
Both are great ways to mess things up, and if you dont know what you did, many hours could be wasted seeking what went wrong...
#5
What I\'m hoping for is a tool to help me create better looking static items in maps rather than the blocky looking environments that currently exist. Since an exporter no longer exists for 3ds max for dif files, I\'m hoping constructor may eventually reach the level of being a decent substitute.
04/12/2007 (8:06 am)
I understand that constructor isn\'t going to replace programs like 3ds Max, nor attempt to. I understand the difference between Concave and Convex. That\'s fine if you can create an option to delete vertices/edges/faces, but you seem to be getting pissed that I suggested something along those lines. I\'m not trying to attack constructor, just offer feedback, which is what I thought this forum was about. What I\'m hoping for is a tool to help me create better looking static items in maps rather than the blocky looking environments that currently exist. Since an exporter no longer exists for 3ds max for dif files, I\'m hoping constructor may eventually reach the level of being a decent substitute.
#6
Right now constructor has a nice in-between feeling that game editors should have. You just have to think low poly counts.
04/12/2007 (9:22 am)
Well when you figure out how to render 3dmax scenes in anything close to real time, using smooth curves anti aliasing, high shaders and the like, that will run on current hardware then you can have non blocky gaming models. Until then, there are plenty of techniques that hide or minimize a low poly count modeling environment.Right now constructor has a nice in-between feeling that game editors should have. You just have to think low poly counts.
#7
It seems to me that you are trying to do stuff that is simply too complicated for convex brushes and that you are relying too heavily on the CSG tools (which also have complexity limitations).
If you want to create better looking static items then you might better served by using static meshes imported from the 3d modelling program of your choice into Constructor. This will give you much finer control and allow you to do all of the things you want (deleting faces/edges/verts). You can also create the collision meshes in the modelling program or you could create invisible convex brushes (by using the NULL texture) in Constructor to act as your collision meshes.
04/12/2007 (2:03 pm)
Sorry. I was concerned by "I don't know much about how a 'brush based' editor differs from a program such as 3ds Max or Maya" and wanted to make sure that you did understand how it differs.It seems to me that you are trying to do stuff that is simply too complicated for convex brushes and that you are relying too heavily on the CSG tools (which also have complexity limitations).
If you want to create better looking static items then you might better served by using static meshes imported from the 3d modelling program of your choice into Constructor. This will give you much finer control and allow you to do all of the things you want (deleting faces/edges/verts). You can also create the collision meshes in the modelling program or you could create invisible convex brushes (by using the NULL texture) in Constructor to act as your collision meshes.
#8
Jason: It's not about poly count as much as capability. Actually, I could probably make it more poly efficient in Max than I can currently in Constructor. But, Constructor makes it easier to play with textures and to use DTS files for reference. My hope is just to be able to do as much as possible in Constructor without ever opening Max.
04/12/2007 (5:14 pm)
Thanks Matt... one thing I was excited about was when I saw I could import DTS files, but I was a bit confused about one of Alex's other posts about DTS files exported as DIF. When I first read it, I thought he was saying that DTS files can't be exported as DIF, but now I think he was saying that I can import a DTS, make it part of my DIF, then export the whole object. Would that be correct? So, say I wanted to make some hoses in 3ds Max, I could export them from Max as a DTS, then import into Constructor and use to make a larger object. Then the whole thing could be exported as a DIF for Torque?Jason: It's not about poly count as much as capability. Actually, I could probably make it more poly efficient in Max than I can currently in Constructor. But, Constructor makes it easier to play with textures and to use DTS files for reference. My hope is just to be able to do as much as possible in Constructor without ever opening Max.
#9
Correct. This is the way most modern game engines (like Unreal 3 and Half-Life 2) work. You do the bigger/rougher collision objects as convex brushes (like walls, floors, fountains, columns, etc). Then you fill in all of the finer detail with static meshes (created in a modelling program like 3dsmax).
04/12/2007 (5:23 pm)
Quote:
So, say I wanted to make some hoses in 3ds Max, I could export them from Max as a DTS, then import into Constructor and use to make a larger object. Then the whole thing could be exported as a DIF for Torque?
Correct. This is the way most modern game engines (like Unreal 3 and Half-Life 2) work. You do the bigger/rougher collision objects as convex brushes (like walls, floors, fountains, columns, etc). Then you fill in all of the finer detail with static meshes (created in a modelling program like 3dsmax).
#10
04/14/2007 (10:59 am)
Right... problem isn't a dif exporter for Max or Maya anymore ;) I'm just trying to make sure I'm not using DTS files for interiors. Thanks.
#11
Let's say I want to build a simple house.
I build a hollow cube with holes for doors and windows and cover it with very detailed DTS meshes like roof, door frames, window frames, etc. Will the player in Torque collide with the DTS as it would with DIFs? I mean if the DTS is a door frame, will the player be able to go through the hole of the door frame and also be able to collide with the mesh accurately?
Also, when I export DTS meshes from a modelling program, do I have to create a collision box, just as we were supposed to do before Torque 1.5.1, or would a simple export to DTS suffice?
Sorry, but I only own Torque 1.4.2 and TGEA 1.0 where DTS baking is not possible.
I'm eagerly waiting for TGEA 1.02 to test this, but an answer in the mean time would be appreciated.
04/14/2007 (1:05 pm)
So, how will collision work on a box covered with DTS meshes?Let's say I want to build a simple house.
I build a hollow cube with holes for doors and windows and cover it with very detailed DTS meshes like roof, door frames, window frames, etc. Will the player in Torque collide with the DTS as it would with DIFs? I mean if the DTS is a door frame, will the player be able to go through the hole of the door frame and also be able to collide with the mesh accurately?
Also, when I export DTS meshes from a modelling program, do I have to create a collision box, just as we were supposed to do before Torque 1.5.1, or would a simple export to DTS suffice?
Sorry, but I only own Torque 1.4.2 and TGEA 1.0 where DTS baking is not possible.
I'm eagerly waiting for TGEA 1.02 to test this, but an answer in the mean time would be appreciated.
#12
If your going to have your DTS collide with the player you need to also model a collision model.
example
I've noticed in Hammer that if you model thedoor frame collision, with all its sides(sides and top, it doesn't work (can't walk through it).
So, in my example the collision model has two vertical boxes. So, if your character walks through it, he will collide with the sides of the door frame but not the top of it.
I hope this helps you more then confuses you. :)
04/14/2007 (1:40 pm)
Quote:Will the player in Torque collide with the DTS as it would with DIFs? I mean if the DTS is a door frame, will the player be able to go through the hole of the door frame and also be able to collide with the mesh accurately?"
If your going to have your DTS collide with the player you need to also model a collision model.
example
I've noticed in Hammer that if you model thedoor frame collision, with all its sides(sides and top, it doesn't work (can't walk through it).
So, in my example the collision model has two vertical boxes. So, if your character walks through it, he will collide with the sides of the door frame but not the top of it.
I hope this helps you more then confuses you. :)
#13
I'm assuming that they are collision boxes that are modeled after the door frame in the modeling program. Is that correct?
04/15/2007 (12:32 am)
So the green vertical collision boxes are not brushes (part of the DIF), right (because you mentioned Hammer)? I'm assuming that they are collision boxes that are modeled after the door frame in the modeling program. Is that correct?
#14
I've created both the model and collision inside of 3D Max. I created a text file which tells the engine what model to compile and what collision model to use. I've used that technique when working in Source Engine (hammer). I've imported a DTS model to Torque a while back, I forgot how its done, maybe look in the TGE forums on how this is done.
You might be able to use DIF for your door collision. You may need something to tell the engine not to render it, maybe the NULL texture will do it. Maybe you can do that for an experiment. If it works, please tell me.
04/16/2007 (10:48 am)
Yes,I've created both the model and collision inside of 3D Max. I created a text file which tells the engine what model to compile and what collision model to use. I've used that technique when working in Source Engine (hammer). I've imported a DTS model to Torque a while back, I forgot how its done, maybe look in the TGE forums on how this is done.
You might be able to use DIF for your door collision. You may need something to tell the engine not to render it, maybe the NULL texture will do it. Maybe you can do that for an experiment. If it works, please tell me.
Associate Matt Fairfax
PopCap
Never gonna happen in a brush based editor.