Magic
by Matt Fairfax · in General Discussion · 07/01/2002 (12:50 pm) · 15 replies
Quote:Open Questions: Can you learn new magic, either over time or in the course of a single engagement? (Perhaps you only have access to basic spells unless you pick up scrolls you can memorize) What are some individual spell ideas that are interesting or encourage teamwork? (We can all think up "fireball") What is the limit on magic casting, mana? If mana, how do you get it? Does it regenerate over time, can you replenish it via items? What are the mechanics of casting magic? (Simpler is probably better)
First off, I think a straightforward regenerating mana system would be the simplest. Realm Wars is definitely more action-oriented so I doubt most players will won't to worry about anything more complex than that. Maybe we could have pickups that would help to replenish the mana faster (think mana shrine in Dungeon Siege) or pickups that would allow you to hold more mana for a limited time (for really big spells). I think most spells would be served well by having 2 levels of power. For example, a heal spell could just heal one person or if you are willing to commit a lot more mana to it, could heal multiple people within a certain distance. This would allow the amgic users to be more stategic in their spellcasting. Perhaps if the spells are selectable using the number keys (like weapons in your standard fps) then you could cycle through the different power levels by hitting the same number key multiple times (if I hit 1 once then I get a single person heal, if I hit it twice I get a area heal). You could show the spell icons only when a number key is pressed.
I think that learning spells over time would be unfair to people who just joined the battle. If I hop into a UT deathmatch game I will instantly be as effective as anyone who has been there for a while aside from the various pickups...which I can run and get and be on equal footing quite rapidly. A newly spawned player should never be completely vulnerable so each should be equipped with at least a basic set of spells. The idea of picking up extra spells (memorizable scrolls) is also attractive.
The way I see it, there are 4 major types of spells mechanics categories: spells cast on the player themselves, those cast on friendly team members, those cast on enemy team members, and area effect spells. Obviously, targetting yourself is no problem: just select the spell and cast. Area effect spells are the same since there is no targetting required. We should make it easy to cast spells on your own teammates. I am envisioning something like targetting in a flight/space sim or in MechWarrior where a key will automatically target the nearest friend (maybe have an icon over their head) and subsequent keypresses will cycle through other eligible teammates (those within range or sight). For casting against an enemy though, I think it would be best to offer no targetting so that the effectiveness of the spell will rely on the ability of the player to aim (this is an action game after all).
Well, I am just trying to offer some suggestions/solutions and to get discussions moving on these subjects so let's hear what you have to say!
As an aside, I can't get the image out of my head of a Lightning Strike spell where lightning comes arching down out of the sky, through the upheld hands of the elven sorceress, and into an enemy =)
About the author
I am a Game Designer at PopCap who has worked on PvZ Adventures, PvZ2, Peggle Blast, and Bejeweled Skies. I am an ex-GarageGames employee who helped ship TGE, TGEA, Torque 3D, and Constructor.
#2
Some examples:
A spell that illuminates and also blinds people within range. ("Continual light" in D&D I think)
"Stick to Snakes", sticks come to life and attack people.
Magic Missile with homing arrows that move in a cool fashion. (Hovering for bit, then seeking out)
A wall of flame that can be used to temporarily block off areas or trap people as well as for damage.
A spell that makes you allies near-invisible.
A poison cloud that slowly does area damage.
An acid cloud that erodes armor and/or weapons.
I want to get away from thinking about the spells as just a bullet that goes at someone and either hits them or explodes, and is different colors depending on the element. An ice spell might not only damage but freeze people in place in a big crystal for a few seconds. Spells should have interesting properties and effects associated with them. I think it would be pretty boring if the sorceress had say "iceball, fireball, lightning attack, hp drain, hp boost..." Spells need to be interesting, neat, and mystical. The cooler the better really. Even if a spell just raises someone's attack power it could at least make the grow a little, or pulsate, or be covered in blue flame or something...we don't want our spells to feel like math.
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In terms of activation, we still want spellcasters to be able to use weapons. (What do they do when they are out of mana, just sit around and wait?) Exactly how to activate them, maybe shift + a number to choose a spell, and a number to choose a weapon? If we want different spell levels maybe have an alt-fire for spells like in UT?
As far as learning spells go, what I have been thinking would be interesting would be that you respawn with a few basic spells, then can pick up the rest on the level. If we have different spell levels maybe you can also gain those levels by getting the same spell again.
So, as a healer you might start with heal and some buff, then you can go out and get Heal+ and buff+ as well as your continual light, teleport and whatever else.
07/01/2002 (6:39 pm)
I would like to see more interesting spells in terms of visuals and effects. You can only get so much mileage out of raising and lowering stats, damaging and healing, etc.Some examples:
A spell that illuminates and also blinds people within range. ("Continual light" in D&D I think)
"Stick to Snakes", sticks come to life and attack people.
Magic Missile with homing arrows that move in a cool fashion. (Hovering for bit, then seeking out)
A wall of flame that can be used to temporarily block off areas or trap people as well as for damage.
A spell that makes you allies near-invisible.
A poison cloud that slowly does area damage.
An acid cloud that erodes armor and/or weapons.
I want to get away from thinking about the spells as just a bullet that goes at someone and either hits them or explodes, and is different colors depending on the element. An ice spell might not only damage but freeze people in place in a big crystal for a few seconds. Spells should have interesting properties and effects associated with them. I think it would be pretty boring if the sorceress had say "iceball, fireball, lightning attack, hp drain, hp boost..." Spells need to be interesting, neat, and mystical. The cooler the better really. Even if a spell just raises someone's attack power it could at least make the grow a little, or pulsate, or be covered in blue flame or something...we don't want our spells to feel like math.
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In terms of activation, we still want spellcasters to be able to use weapons. (What do they do when they are out of mana, just sit around and wait?) Exactly how to activate them, maybe shift + a number to choose a spell, and a number to choose a weapon? If we want different spell levels maybe have an alt-fire for spells like in UT?
As far as learning spells go, what I have been thinking would be interesting would be that you respawn with a few basic spells, then can pick up the rest on the level. If we have different spell levels maybe you can also gain those levels by getting the same spell again.
So, as a healer you might start with heal and some buff, then you can go out and get Heal+ and buff+ as well as your continual light, teleport and whatever else.
#3
07/02/2002 (10:38 am)
I think magic will be a huge element in the game to some,and nothing at all to others. I think we should be able to gain new spells,even if it is unfair. Lets face it, most MPOGs are unfair to beginners,but thats hjow everything in real life is. It would get VERY boring to older players if your couldn't gain new things. It would make players unique, and give players a sense of pride (if your really that obsessed). Same goes for weapons. We should have multiple types of different weapons,like the normal axe,battle axe, Large battle axe, Mammoth axe, Rock axe, Steel Axe, Fire Axe, ect. and each would have their own pros and cons (exp- A small axe is fast bu weak, a mammoth axe is very slow but does a lot of damage)
#4
I'd like to see some classification system so we can then organise some kind of heirarchy of spells. I can see there being a need for weak->strong spells of each category (so for instance, maybe warriors could all still be casters, just really weekly?).
Do we actively disallow some players from being magic at all? in which case, whats thier protection from magic attacks?
Phil.
07/02/2002 (10:59 am)
James, we can guarantee a nice looking effect will happen. But mainly its the actual effect of the spell on the world thats important (at least for creating them).I'd like to see some classification system so we can then organise some kind of heirarchy of spells. I can see there being a need for weak->strong spells of each category (so for instance, maybe warriors could all still be casters, just really weekly?).
Do we actively disallow some players from being magic at all? in which case, whats thier protection from magic attacks?
Phil.
#5
The alt-fire suggestion is an excellent one =) but I think that maybe the magic users should have the spells bound to the number keys with weapons on shift+number since we want to encourage them to use magic. The fighters could be the opposite if we are allowing them to cast spells which isn't a bad idea. I think the fighters should be a lot more limited in what they can cast (maybe by a much lower mana limit).
Counterspells are always an attractive proposition (you cast ice on me so I cast fire to cancel it out) but after playing Wheel of Time I learned that this does not play well, has a steep learning curve, and slows the action down badly =( I'm not saying that we can't have some counterspells but they should be carefully examined for how they will effect gameplay. Combat oriented counterspells don't work well but counterspells you have time to cast (you find a teammate who ahs been bound in place but no enemy is around) might work. We just need to be careful and test thoroughly.
I really like the suggestion of teleportation spells =) Movement around large playing areas is definitely going to be a problem.
07/02/2002 (12:01 pm)
I think we will end up having a set of categorized spells common to most races (like heal spells...although I don't see a demon race wanting to use heal). These will be your "math" spells (though I agree with Phil that we can make them look very cool). I think we will also end up with a number of spells that are unique in their effect on the world (can't really be categorized). I think that a fair number of spells should be unique to a race. For example, I just can't see an elven sorceress using a necromancy spell! I also get the impression that James and I are on the same page of wanting a very wide diversity of the actual effect of the spell (not just the visuals).The alt-fire suggestion is an excellent one =) but I think that maybe the magic users should have the spells bound to the number keys with weapons on shift+number since we want to encourage them to use magic. The fighters could be the opposite if we are allowing them to cast spells which isn't a bad idea. I think the fighters should be a lot more limited in what they can cast (maybe by a much lower mana limit).
Counterspells are always an attractive proposition (you cast ice on me so I cast fire to cancel it out) but after playing Wheel of Time I learned that this does not play well, has a steep learning curve, and slows the action down badly =( I'm not saying that we can't have some counterspells but they should be carefully examined for how they will effect gameplay. Combat oriented counterspells don't work well but counterspells you have time to cast (you find a teammate who ahs been bound in place but no enemy is around) might work. We just need to be careful and test thoroughly.
I really like the suggestion of teleportation spells =) Movement around large playing areas is definitely going to be a problem.
#6
Maybe spells that altar appearance like turn people into animals.
Somthing I thought upp for vehicles is something very different and unique. The wizards can summon animals (Vehicles) for themslves or other people to ride. This would also make it so every race will require at least 1 mage of they want vehicles. Gameplay would be interesting i think. Just trying to throw it all out as it comes to me because i forget sometimes.
We should try to come up with our own ideas too of spells. Im the kind of person that wants to be different and unique game that makes the game what it is not some, "Oh that games like so and so."
07/02/2002 (12:51 pm)
Weather spells such as fog. Calling upon fog can hide an entire army and make it hard to tell whats within the cloud of fog. Raining down lightning.Maybe spells that altar appearance like turn people into animals.
Somthing I thought upp for vehicles is something very different and unique. The wizards can summon animals (Vehicles) for themslves or other people to ride. This would also make it so every race will require at least 1 mage of they want vehicles. Gameplay would be interesting i think. Just trying to throw it all out as it comes to me because i forget sometimes.
We should try to come up with our own ideas too of spells. Im the kind of person that wants to be different and unique game that makes the game what it is not some, "Oh that games like so and so."
#7
The basic spells like heal and such will probably end up being possessed by multiple classes. The more interesting ones will be more unique to certain classes.
I don't think every player should be able to use spells. How does an orc defend against a spell? Run up and bonk the spellcaster on the head! The fighting classes will be better at hand to hand, more durable, be able to use more weapons, etc.
07/02/2002 (7:07 pm)
Right, visual effects would be nice but also spells should do more than just affect some numbers or do some instant direct damage.The basic spells like heal and such will probably end up being possessed by multiple classes. The more interesting ones will be more unique to certain classes.
I don't think every player should be able to use spells. How does an orc defend against a spell? Run up and bonk the spellcaster on the head! The fighting classes will be better at hand to hand, more durable, be able to use more weapons, etc.
#8
07/02/2002 (10:04 pm)
I think the key is making it so that the player has to be so close ot the targe and then how lon git takes to do anohter spell will decide the outcome. Like if i caste fireball and DO NOT kill my target and he knows that it will take me 30 seconds to regen my mana he has an easy kill so long as he runs me down.
#9
Personally I am a fan of the take time to cast, it does away with a need for mana and regeneration and therefore never leaves a wizard up s*it creek without mana. However damage during casting will cause him to stop his casting.
07/08/2002 (9:16 pm)
can i point people towards my weapon & magics thread, there may be some stuff there people can use.Personally I am a fan of the take time to cast, it does away with a need for mana and regeneration and therefore never leaves a wizard up s*it creek without mana. However damage during casting will cause him to stop his casting.
#10
Anyway here are some spell suggestions of mine. I've tried to avoid "fireball" and other fairly generic ones. We will have some basic bread & butter spells but those are pretty easy to come up with. Note that I wrote this list up at 6:00 AM so the names I came up with are kind of goofy.
Largify: Grow a character by 25-50% or so. This would increase their damage dealt by HTH weapons and their HP, but make them a bigger target. THe "alt-fire" version if there was one could make the really huge, which would look really cool but could have some issues when it comes to things like fitting in doors. (If an enemy was following you you could largify them and run into a cave!)
Shrink: Opposite of largify. Character shrinks, has less HP and does less HTH damage. But you would be a smaller target. Might make sense to cast on an ally who is a long range fighter. Could also help characters hide behind things easier, go through low areas, etc.
Sproingy-Jump: (This is one of the goofily named ones!) Makes a character be able to jump really high/far.
Teleport: Not sure how it could work exactly. (Choose destination how?)
Blinding Light: Temporarily blind anyone looking at flashpoint.
Smoke/Fog: Fill region with smoke.
Poison Cloud: Fill region with cloud that slowly does damage. The longer you stay in the cloud the more likely you can become poisoned, which lasts for some time even after you leave cloud.
Stone Wall/ Tree Growth: Temporarily grow an obstacle out of the ground. You could hide behind this for cover, block off passages with it, etc. Would be cool if they were destructable.
Freeze: Do damage to target, some chance of freezing them in place for a bit. When cast on water could create ice bridge or freeze those in the water.
Flame Wall: Wall of flame you don't want to walk into.
Feather-Fall: Cast on someone and they fall really slowly and maybe can steer in air. Could be useful on levels with high parts where you jump off precipice and float while shooting at people or to get to other areas easier.
Explosive Shot: Cast on weapon to give it explosive ammo.
Speed/Slow: Make people run faster/slower. (Maybe attack also?)
Disorient: Weird effect on screen, player controls temporarily altered. (Would be funny to watch a disoriented person)
Retissue: Bring recently dead character back to life as a zombie, perhaps and NPC zombie.
Revive: Revive recently dead.
Summon NPC: Summon something.
Soul Steal: Convert target HP to your own MP. (Can use on self for quick MP) Could be the basis of a Necromancer type character.
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These are all just random suggestions, but he idea is something more interesting than "point and click and target gains +/-x to some stat." Spells that take some skill and thought to use are cool.
07/08/2002 (9:38 pm)
Mana regen will be hard to balance, because if you run out what do you do other than run around waiting for it to fill back up? I would prefer a system where if you aren't casting spells you have something else you should be doing, other than waiting, running and/or hiding.Anyway here are some spell suggestions of mine. I've tried to avoid "fireball" and other fairly generic ones. We will have some basic bread & butter spells but those are pretty easy to come up with. Note that I wrote this list up at 6:00 AM so the names I came up with are kind of goofy.
Largify: Grow a character by 25-50% or so. This would increase their damage dealt by HTH weapons and their HP, but make them a bigger target. THe "alt-fire" version if there was one could make the really huge, which would look really cool but could have some issues when it comes to things like fitting in doors. (If an enemy was following you you could largify them and run into a cave!)
Shrink: Opposite of largify. Character shrinks, has less HP and does less HTH damage. But you would be a smaller target. Might make sense to cast on an ally who is a long range fighter. Could also help characters hide behind things easier, go through low areas, etc.
Sproingy-Jump: (This is one of the goofily named ones!) Makes a character be able to jump really high/far.
Teleport: Not sure how it could work exactly. (Choose destination how?)
Blinding Light: Temporarily blind anyone looking at flashpoint.
Smoke/Fog: Fill region with smoke.
Poison Cloud: Fill region with cloud that slowly does damage. The longer you stay in the cloud the more likely you can become poisoned, which lasts for some time even after you leave cloud.
Stone Wall/ Tree Growth: Temporarily grow an obstacle out of the ground. You could hide behind this for cover, block off passages with it, etc. Would be cool if they were destructable.
Freeze: Do damage to target, some chance of freezing them in place for a bit. When cast on water could create ice bridge or freeze those in the water.
Flame Wall: Wall of flame you don't want to walk into.
Feather-Fall: Cast on someone and they fall really slowly and maybe can steer in air. Could be useful on levels with high parts where you jump off precipice and float while shooting at people or to get to other areas easier.
Explosive Shot: Cast on weapon to give it explosive ammo.
Speed/Slow: Make people run faster/slower. (Maybe attack also?)
Disorient: Weird effect on screen, player controls temporarily altered. (Would be funny to watch a disoriented person)
Retissue: Bring recently dead character back to life as a zombie, perhaps and NPC zombie.
Revive: Revive recently dead.
Summon NPC: Summon something.
Soul Steal: Convert target HP to your own MP. (Can use on self for quick MP) Could be the basis of a Necromancer type character.
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These are all just random suggestions, but he idea is something more interesting than "point and click and target gains +/-x to some stat." Spells that take some skill and thought to use are cool.
#11
Not sure how they tie to the classes yet. Guess I'll have to wait and see...
The only suggestion I would offer (and you probably already thought of this) is to place limits on spells like Largify/Shrink and Summon. Don't want anyone creating an army of giant orc zombies (at least not more than once =)
Disorient sounds like it would be hilarious....mixing up their keymappings for a short period of time...hehe...genius!
I still want to see a really well done fireball and lightning spell though. Not just a particle system fireball but one with an animated mesh (and some particles around it probably).
Couple of extra suggestions:
Shove: Pushes the enemies back a distance...good way to get your team some breathing room
Strip: causes the enemy to drop all of their weapons and attached armor (not clothes ;)
Earthquake: could probably be simulated pretty well using something like the Impulse function- don't actually move the terrain just make everyone in range bounce around
Mage Vision: zoom with some cool colors (da colors man...)
Fade: very handy for passing through walls...makes the player smoky looking and able to walk through solid objects (like the trees in the test app =P )
Illusion: could be used in a number of different ways like casting the illusion of an orc over your elven teammate so he can sneak into their base (hope it doesn't fail!) or creating the illusion of someone to lead the enemy away
Astral Map: creates a small map of the level with the other players positions marked and relevant objective points
Steel Skin: makes them impervious to damage for a short period of time
07/08/2002 (11:26 pm)
Sounds like a very good start for a spell list =)Not sure how they tie to the classes yet. Guess I'll have to wait and see...
The only suggestion I would offer (and you probably already thought of this) is to place limits on spells like Largify/Shrink and Summon. Don't want anyone creating an army of giant orc zombies (at least not more than once =)
Disorient sounds like it would be hilarious....mixing up their keymappings for a short period of time...hehe...genius!
I still want to see a really well done fireball and lightning spell though. Not just a particle system fireball but one with an animated mesh (and some particles around it probably).
Couple of extra suggestions:
Shove: Pushes the enemies back a distance...good way to get your team some breathing room
Strip: causes the enemy to drop all of their weapons and attached armor (not clothes ;)
Earthquake: could probably be simulated pretty well using something like the Impulse function- don't actually move the terrain just make everyone in range bounce around
Mage Vision: zoom with some cool colors (da colors man...)
Fade: very handy for passing through walls...makes the player smoky looking and able to walk through solid objects (like the trees in the test app =P )
Illusion: could be used in a number of different ways like casting the illusion of an orc over your elven teammate so he can sneak into their base (hope it doesn't fail!) or creating the illusion of someone to lead the enemy away
Astral Map: creates a small map of the level with the other players positions marked and relevant objective points
Steel Skin: makes them impervious to damage for a short period of time
#12
Reflect, just cast on a projectile or projectile spell and it will be thrown back at the individual who fired at him.
Stop, cheaper version of the above, projectile stops dead in its path and falls to the floor. Has dual effect of stopping an opponent dead in his tracks for a second.
Bloodied Blade, (free) causes the spellswords blade to do more damage, but he regains less mana
Spiritual Blade, (free) causes the spellswords blade to do less damage, but he regains more mana
Charge, blade starts to glow an on next impact causes an explosion, does a lot of damage but throws anyone nearby (inc. spellsword) away from the point of impact, and knocks them over. (imagine the effect the death of sauron in lord of the rings had, just on a much smaller scale!). Only spellsword doesn't take damage, although he does get knocked over too.
Just a few bits and pieces, seemed to be more suited to the spellsword than others, the charge could be entertaining.
07/09/2002 (12:18 am)
A couple of spells for the spellsword class, seeing as he seems to have a sort of mana system (the idea of regenerating through dealing out damage appeals)Reflect, just cast on a projectile or projectile spell and it will be thrown back at the individual who fired at him.
Stop, cheaper version of the above, projectile stops dead in its path and falls to the floor. Has dual effect of stopping an opponent dead in his tracks for a second.
Bloodied Blade, (free) causes the spellswords blade to do more damage, but he regains less mana
Spiritual Blade, (free) causes the spellswords blade to do less damage, but he regains more mana
Charge, blade starts to glow an on next impact causes an explosion, does a lot of damage but throws anyone nearby (inc. spellsword) away from the point of impact, and knocks them over. (imagine the effect the death of sauron in lord of the rings had, just on a much smaller scale!). Only spellsword doesn't take damage, although he does get knocked over too.
Just a few bits and pieces, seemed to be more suited to the spellsword than others, the charge could be entertaining.
#13
The casting time one supports the classic wizard better, as their weapon ability will be minimal and they will want to stay out of CQ and will be able to spend 5 to 10 seconds casting spells.
I have however come up with an interesting blend for elves, considering that there was mention of an element based magic. Take our elven sorceress (sp?) I have read above the idea to possibly include NPC "pets" and it got me thinking, what if the elves relied on borrowed magic?! The Elf initially spends casting time summoning an elemental spirit, the longer spent the more powerful, say a fire elemental, or a water one, then it is the pet that casts the spells not he elven sorceress, and the spell casting would then be mana based, and when the element runs out of mana it vanishes back to whatever plane it was summoned from. This would provide an interesting twist, because it means that players can attack the elemental (and do it damage, i.e reduce its mana) and force it to return early, and gives the elf an interesting dilemma, do you use that powerful spell, but drain the elemental, or lots of small ones.
07/09/2002 (12:36 am)
Ok let me see, we have 2 distinct systems currently discussed, the mana system and the casting time system. Now both have advantages and disadvantages, take for examples James' spellsword class he mentionned in my post, I believe the mana system will serve this one better, simply because his magic will be combat orientated and needed at a pinch, I would suspect that as a class he will not be designed to step back cast something and bundle in.The casting time one supports the classic wizard better, as their weapon ability will be minimal and they will want to stay out of CQ and will be able to spend 5 to 10 seconds casting spells.
I have however come up with an interesting blend for elves, considering that there was mention of an element based magic. Take our elven sorceress (sp?) I have read above the idea to possibly include NPC "pets" and it got me thinking, what if the elves relied on borrowed magic?! The Elf initially spends casting time summoning an elemental spirit, the longer spent the more powerful, say a fire elemental, or a water one, then it is the pet that casts the spells not he elven sorceress, and the spell casting would then be mana based, and when the element runs out of mana it vanishes back to whatever plane it was summoned from. This would provide an interesting twist, because it means that players can attack the elemental (and do it damage, i.e reduce its mana) and force it to return early, and gives the elf an interesting dilemma, do you use that powerful spell, but drain the elemental, or lots of small ones.
#14
07/09/2002 (9:36 am)
Stop and Reflect would be nearly impossible to cast succesfully given the speed of the projectiles in RW (check out the crossbow in Milestone 0). Try playing Wheel of Time multiplayer and you can see it for yourself =)
#15
07/09/2002 (11:38 am)
point.. 
Torque 3D Owner Phil Carlisle
For instance, what category of spells are there?
1) Buffs
Add to Armour, HP, Stamina, Regen?
2) Heals
Small, Large, Single or Group? AOE? Time limited?
3) Direct Damage
Different types? cold, heat, light, etc.
4) Dots
Poison, mana drains, health/armour/stat drains.
5) Debuffs
Lower stats, lower hit rate, lower class stats?
6) Teleports
Any sort of movements. Root? Gate home, gate nearest safety etc.
Any others?
Phil.