Classes

#1 Are you saying that these different classes would have their own sets of weapons, or that they would respawn with different default sets? If I am a thief type who uses throwing knives and I find a large axe can I use it?

#2 Race: Draptile
Desc: A reptile like up right walking individual with wings (5-6.5 feet). has a hard reptile exoskelotin. It has a high level of agility and endurance. Suited well for hand to HTH combat. Although there are a few magic users and those that are found are ussually well advanced and best to avoid.
Weapons: Anything it can get its hands onto.
Magic: Sleep, unconciousness, speed more to come . . .

Race: Kender's
Desc: A race from the Dragonlance Chronicles that is short (4-5 feet) and has no fear. Usually unique for having topknots, and theri ability to have no fear. THey are therefore known for being immunie to certain spells of some sort.
Weapons: Ussualy antying they can steal within their size description and is light. (EX: SLEDGE HAMER WOULDNT WORK)
Magic: Have no known magic abiltys although some belive that their stealing and lock picking ablilty is magic.

Race: Elves
Desc: Most know this one

RAce: Humans
Desc: Most know this one

Race: Dwarves
Desc: Most know this one

Race: Orcs
Desc: Most know this one

#3 All those races soun fun,but i think we need to start with the asics,like dwarves,elves,humans,orcs,and so forth. Then maybe later w can worry about sub-classes. And about your Orc race,i dont think they have shamans,or earth worship, Orcs are just dumb gorrillas with green skin. Demons, Demons, Demons. We need to work on how we are goig to use them. They should have bizzarre ritualistic mutilations for added power, and Megaton-Strength. They have magic abilities,but not as well as a wizard might hone. They use large,slow,heavy,but powerful weapons like two-handed swords, giant axes,mammoth warhammers, and so forth. They have decent defense,which canbe upgraded from enchantments. Demons enchant everything. They lack agility and have 5/10 speed on the scale. The can range in skin colors, from red to black to gray. They have good blacksmithing skills and use a lot of spikes. They dont use much armor, which is usually a tough leather,iron,or even rock. Anything i can do to help make this race possible,i will do.

#4 Hrm...the way I see it there are a few different approaches that we could take as far as weapons go. First, we could do a buying system like in Counter-Strike. However, I get the impression that we are trying to avoid a round-based system and I am not sure how well the a cs buying system would play without that. Mostly, I get the impression that action is an important aspect of RW and that it would be best if we can get most players into the game as fast as possible without having to worry about managing money or what to buy so I favor starting the player out with a default set of weapons (something like the specific ones I described above). For example, the rogue would spawn with the throwing knives, a light crossbow, and maybe a HTH knife. I believe that TFC has proven that unique weapons per class is a viable approach (if I am an engineer I can't pick up a soldier's RL) but I favor allowing the players to pick up weapons for a bit of diversity. It might even add an interesting element to the game where Rogues will be on the look out for Grunts so that they can get a heavier crossbow and Grunts will go after Rogues for a faster firing crossbow that does less damage or after Knights for a bigger axe or a sword and so on. I think there should be a limiting factor like slowing the movement of a lighter class if they pick up a heavier weapon and vice versa. For example, a Guardian should hardly be able to move if they pick up a Crusher's club. It should also lessen their effectiveness in HTH though I am not certain exactly how this can be accomplished aside from another speed modifier. Maybe a hybrid approach of TFC and Quake's weapon schemes is appropiate where certain classes can only pick up certain weapons other than their default set. I think we should avoid just allowing any class to pick up any weapon b/c then your class will really have no more meaning than how fast you can run with certain weapons (what then would really differentiate a Rogue from a Guardian). As far as where and how the player will pick up weapons, you could have upgraded weapons lying around to be picked up like the upgraded spells we were talking about in the Magic thread. Personally, I favor the Halo approach of having a limited number of weapon slots (maybe more than Halo's two). I think it adds a little bit of strategy without slowing down the action very much (do I go with the lighter/faster crossbow or the heavier/slower one...I can't hold both so I have to decide). I think that picking up weapons from fallen players is a good approach though it might need to be leavened with a limited number of respawning pickups.

Anyway, I am just trying to move the discussion along so tell me what you're thinking =)

#5 BTW, I certainly wasn't trying to imply that the race/class list I posted would be everything that would make its way into the game. I tried to limit myself to 3 classes per race and to only 4 races so that we have a reasonable target to aim for (even 12 models is going to take some time). Later the races and classes can be expanded. The main reason I posted my list was to get discussions focused and moving. Some classes have been mentioned here and there but nothing really concrete. I am just trying to provide a list that can be modified, added to, or completely replaced but at least we have something to work from now =) I tried to make sure that there was at least one female class for each race. I also tried to diversify the classes in form and function quite a bit. The Knight, Grunt, and Warrior classes are similar (they were intended for players who are looking for straightforward hack n' slash) but there is definitely not a similar class to the Fiend. I see the value of codifying or categorizing the classes across the races (like each race having a melee class, a magic class, and a ranged class). It greatly speeds up development and simplifies balancing but it gets boring fast unless you have a large range of classes to pick from (and we aren't going to be able to do a large number of classes unless we limit ourselves to just 2 races initially given the amount of time required just for modelling and animating). I favor a smaller number of very unique classes. It is harder to design and to balance but it adds a lot to the replayability of the game. If I change from the Elvish race to the Demon race I should really notice a change in how I have to play! The races and classes need to be different in more than just appearance! Hehe, okay I'll get off my soapbox now =)

#6 I agree that the four we NEED TO HAVE are dwarves, humans, elves, and orcs. I just provided something different than whats in other games since different hunique things is what draws people to a game. It might be a good idea to work at 2 races to begin with, 1 for light and dark side (or whatever were gonna clarify as good or bad). Just so we have a base and we can put the others in later.

The two i sugest we start on are elves, and orcs since both have a considerable amount of time put into them already.

-Justin "Mithrandir"

#7 WHERE!!!!???

Anyway,i think that we need the basics,and you can use elemental enchantments on weapons (maybe only magical class of the same race can give you it) and that a "shop" type of system would be great. I love earning money in games and buying new goodies.
As for the small amount of unique races, i believe we should have a good amount of races,but a vast amount of classes for each race,or the opposite. Everyone has their own tastes and imagination,we all know that, so we should have a little bit of everything for everyone to enjoy.
There should also be a way to customize,beside different armor showing up and weapons in hand,i mean possibly clothing and colors. We should also have smaller,skinnier characters for kids who pick more speed and agility than strength, and larger,beefier guys for kids who pick power and strength, and fat,stocky guys for defense. If i knew what model prog. people where using to make these models, i would gladly take a shot at making a muscular type,or skinny, or any which-way you want.
You have very good ideas Matt and i think we could combine ideas that would be amazing.

(and if your reading this Jeff, I vision orcs with guns too >:)

#8 There is an elven model done look in the gallery. Also I have seen a dwarven model also on the fourms somewhere. Right now we need stuff with decent quality I think so that we can get functionality and test test test.

We can always add more races and classes. IT will prlly be chamged at least 2 or more times because we truly will not know what gameplay is like untill all the classes and races are implimented.

Although everything I say sounds like a must or a do i state things oddly and just thought id remind everyone im suggesting my thoughts and ideas. I have read A LOT of fantasy/SciFi books thats why I can go and type up here all night on ideas.

#9 All ideas are good, not just the basic ones. We all know what a Dwarf is already anyway.

I sort of have a question about Dwarves, what is it that being a Dwarf does for you that is better than being an Orc or a Knight? In terms of actual gameplay, what does that mean?

Buying weapons: I do think we want to stay away from round-based games, in part because the number of people that can play in one game would mean a lot of waiting for the first people who died. Maybe some mix of finding and buying weapons, but have the buying be rarer than CS. (Don't buy weapons each time you respawn) Maybe something similar to Quake servers where you could trade in kills to become a monster. I'm not saying trading in kills is a good idea, but I don't think we want it so that every time someone respawns the first thing they HAVE to do is run to a shop.

Carrying Weapons, what weapons can you use: I agree that some sort of limited weapon inventory is good. Maybe instead of a low cap make weapons weigh the player down and make them move slower. Most people seem to be in favor of unique weapons per class. (Or class type) It would be cool if you could still pick up a weapon you can't use and give it to your friend. The thing about unique weapons per class is that the more exclusive they are and the more classes there are the less feasible random map pickup weapons becomes, then you really need shopping or something else.

#10 Just a quick note tonight:
I think it would be relatively simple to code weapon spawn points that would be sensitive to the classes on the map. The server would certainly be aware of the classes that are in play and could change the weapons at the spawn points accordingly. Toss in a nifty little spawn visual in case it needs to change the weapon from one that can't be used by a class that just left and it won't look odd to someone who might be watching. Maybe even have the weapons change periodically or randomly anyway. Would help to reduce item spawn camping or timing a great deal.

Edit: weapon spawns that are sensitive to the number of players of a class would be feasible also

#11 For dwarves id say they would be slower but would have a great deal MORE armour. Since most dwarves are stubborn and can take a lot before doing down.

As far as the wepons system We could have travleing caravas that move around and anyone can go ot them and trade. They could also be stationary. I just think wepoans lieing around is fucky for a fantasy game, unless u just jkilled something there.

Maybe make wepons sensitive to the carrier. Like in DiabloII where a certain class carying a cetain wepon is boosted by certain classes. I think the weight thing is a must, either way.

#12 Pesonally I think we should aim for something a little more creative. to go with the dwarves and so on, fine ok but why get stuck in this fantasy rutt? cultures are shaped and changed by the enviroment around them, why hsould fictional races be different ? why must they follow the formuliac? Can't there be an evolved human/demon hybrid creatic a beserker thing ? Can't we have a formidibal foe a culture of intelligent beings obbessed with themselves or cyclops', amazon people, orcs with mutated a club hand and so on ?
Basically taking a basic race group and moulding it into something new


just a thought

#13 Well its like when your chosen as a captain and your choosing you team.what do you do . .you choose the ones you nkow will work, and have proven to work. When you try something new you run the risk of ruining the game. Personally maybe 1 race that is uniquely different would be great, but we would have to work it in so they appear as if they belong with the other races.

#14 I realize that there might be the immediate impulse to resort to the old standby AD&D characters and classes, but consider a little more radical approach:

Character generation based upon the 4 elements and 4 sub elements, with each representing skills and attributes. This would lend a bit of uniqueness as well as a high level of variability to each character. Then a set of skill points could be used to fill out the favored skills. The character race could then be largely ignored as a defining factor in the character generation. One could however use race limitations and benefits to spice things up a bit.

If races are used, try to think outside the box in the sense that demons with wings, silicon based life forms (rock men), little green men, hairy barbarians and the like are very functional ideas.

#15 If anyone would like more detail, I can produce a .doc with a much greater level of detail.

Oh yes...

On the matter of spawning...A game that is bound to rapid respawns will inevitably be compared to all other FPS and some RPG's out. If the spawning was tailored to having teammates pray at some shrine in real time to bring their mates back, coupled with a more durable character it would defer the inevitable suicide runs so famous to all current FPS's.

#16 Suicide runs. Must think on how to eliminate because it is very powerful.

#17 I'm for a holy group. Something like angels and spirits... yes, I have begun to play Magic Online. So sue me.

Seriously, that'd be fun to see and be different from other 3d games with fantasy in them.

I agree that Humans and some type of Orcish creature (orc, goblin, etc) should be there, but not sure about dwarves.

Why not just have "sides", where it's not race restricted? Again, taking a page from Magic you could create teams around some sort of purpose rather than a physical trait or skin color. Afterall, you'd think creatures of a higher intelligence would eventually work on some sort of alliances.

#18 Right now, for the time being anyway, teams will not be restricted to any given race. In the future they may, or they may be coalitions. Are a Zergling and a Hydralisk the same race? Well, not really, but they fight on the same team.

It might be reasonable to have Knights, Elves and a friendly Golem all on the same side, if we have sides.

There are a lot of plusses and minuses to having sides. I'm torn on it, but one thing that is clear is that we can't have sides until we have more than 1 or 2 classes!

As far as unit variety, I can not for the life of me imagine how someone could come up with 4 types of Dwarves! I can barely come up with two. I think you need your basic classes and then some more interesting oddball classes like your Rock Golem, your Crab-Man or whatever.

I imagine that the first 5 or 6 classes will be "bread and butter" types - Orc, Sorceress, Cleric, Knight, Orc Shaman, Thief...something like that. Then you can get into your more fringe Demons, Golems, Undead, whatever else you can think of.

Personally I love the idea of something like a Rock Golem that would be big and very differently proportioned and animated than other characters. It would be nice to be able to distinguish classes easily and at a distance based on their general shape and animation, and lend some real life to the battlefield.

#19 I like the gollum idea a lot mainly because Phill and myself have already been working on a simular idea for RWTA which could be easaly implemented in RW if it would fit the gameplay. Trading kills for becoming one of these isn't an option if you ask me. You don't want to make the best players in the field even better by giving them a stronger chracture, like a gollum. These are things that have to be figured out later.

From an art point of view, having models that tower above the rest of the field is very intresting. Some of you might know the comics "Chronicals of the black moon" they have some big battles in there were trolls, giants and mammoth like creatures team up with hummans and orcs. It is pretty cool to see how they put that in the comic it probably would kick some major ass if we could some how get that in game.

Any way like i said Phil and I have already been tossing around this idea but we did a little more than tossing alone.

big pic

I also have the mesh as good as finished. If it is decided to put in gollums i could have it in pretty fast. Putting in gollums and other big charactures is more a gameplay issue that first needs to be sorted out. I don't thing they should be part of the race/class discussion yet since we don't even know what to do with the basic classes.

#20 I'm going to have to disagree with Aaron about spawning. Gameplay-wise it would be a serious drag to have to hike all the way back to your base to pray your fallen teammates back (assuming any of you live through the fight). Even if you could use the shrine in the enemy base it would still slow gameplay down considerably to have to stop and pray constantly. Personally, I thought sitting around and meditating in Everquest, DAoC, and Gemstone was incredibly boring.

Suicide runs will be severely limited given the typical size of a TGE level. Try doing a suicide run in Tribes 2 sometime (not in a vehicle, on foot) and let me know how successful you are =)

I think that the players should respawn fairly rapidly. Whether this is a short time-based wave system like RTCW (every 20 secs whoever is dead gets respawned) or just a die-then-respawn system probably should be discussed more. A rounds based system is clearly unfeasibly (the dead would be waiting around forever).

As to where to spawn them, I like the idea of having capturable spawn points (Phil started another thread on this a while back). I think the player should respawn fairly close to the action. It would be annoying and pointless to have to spend the first minute or so after you spawn running to the action. I really don't understand the philosophy of respawning the player as far away from the action as possible. With a series of capturable points the winning team will find themselves being forced to spread out to defend what they are holding lest the other team slip in behind them while the losing team will find themselves getting tighter and tighter, making it easier to defend and still be able to send out offensive people. It is a tried and true formula (in rts's and games like TFC) that naturally balances itself. Perhaps give the players a choice of where to spawn in the captured points (ala RTCW) so that if they want to defend the homebase they can or just spawn them randomly across the controlled points (maybe with a higher percentage near to the action). When everyone is respawning at the homebase in a game on the scale of TGE or Tribes 2 then you typically follow a pattern of the enemy taking a control point, the you come right back with fresh troops/health and retake it, the he come sright back with fresh troops/health and the game never really moves along.