TGE poorly documented
by Arild Pihl · in Torque Game Engine · 03/28/2007 (4:33 pm) · 83 replies
I'm hoping someone out there can prove me wrong, but in my opinion Torque is very poorly documented. The only documentation that came with the engine, are scattered comments in the code and scripts, and a 16 page PDF file that tells us how to create a terrain, put a Torque logo in, and how to make a script that enables the player to pick up the logo. The tutorial also mentions that the onCollision function is automatically called by the engine when two objects collides. But are there other functions like this? I've been searching for a complete list of all functions, parameters and stuff like that, but as far as I can tell, there aren't any. I have bought both "3D game programming all in one" and "The game programmers guide to Torque", but I'm still having problems finding the information I need. I feel both these books have a "If you write this, this will happen"-approach to teaching. "The game programmers guide to Torque" does have an appendix on the disc that comes with it, and the "Quick Reference" is the closest to any proper documentation I've found. The TDN that I've supposedly paid $150 to, is in fact only partly completed, and in addition, on the top is a note that says it "will all be replaced with content from Elixir very soon. So it is unnecessary to further expand this article.". This comment is dated October 2005. Not really impressive either. The link to the Elixir page works, but links to an article about why Elixir was chose over Wiki.
Of course we have these forums. But after reading them, I often encounter people with questions like "Where are the engine, I can only find the Torque Demo", and this tells me that there definitely are others out there that could use better documentation too.
The problem I have now is WheeledVehicle. I have made a new simple DTS object to use as a Vehicle, and another one for the tire. Then I changed the car.cs file so that these two objects where loaded in stead, hoping that it would be that easy. But no. This resulted in the car bouncing around uncontrollably, so I started changing the variables in the WheeledWehicleTire, WheeledWehicleSpring and WeeledVehicleData. But that only resulted in either more uncontrollable bouncing/shaking, the car bouncing off into outer space, or the car actually falling straight through the terrain and continuing down. And since I have no documentation, I have very little idea what the variables should be set to! For instance, one article I have read says that the "antiSwayForce = 1.0" will make the car come to a standstill in one second. But I have read through other peoples examples, and found values as high as 3000!
Hopefully someone will understand my frustration and give me a link or a file, or something magical that I must have overseen while reading books and forums for the past month or so.
Any help will be greatly appreciated!
A.P.
Of course we have these forums. But after reading them, I often encounter people with questions like "Where are the engine, I can only find the Torque Demo", and this tells me that there definitely are others out there that could use better documentation too.
The problem I have now is WheeledVehicle. I have made a new simple DTS object to use as a Vehicle, and another one for the tire. Then I changed the car.cs file so that these two objects where loaded in stead, hoping that it would be that easy. But no. This resulted in the car bouncing around uncontrollably, so I started changing the variables in the WheeledWehicleTire, WheeledWehicleSpring and WeeledVehicleData. But that only resulted in either more uncontrollable bouncing/shaking, the car bouncing off into outer space, or the car actually falling straight through the terrain and continuing down. And since I have no documentation, I have very little idea what the variables should be set to! For instance, one article I have read says that the "antiSwayForce = 1.0" will make the car come to a standstill in one second. But I have read through other peoples examples, and found values as high as 3000!
Hopefully someone will understand my frustration and give me a link or a file, or something magical that I must have overseen while reading books and forums for the past month or so.
Any help will be greatly appreciated!
A.P.
Thread is locked
#2
I'd suggest you take a look at it.
03/28/2007 (6:10 pm)
There are documents on the torque engine. If you look in your sdk folder, there is a "Readme.html" file with links to the official documentation. It's not too difficult to find, and it is a very thorough set of documents.I'd suggest you take a look at it.
#3
It's a work in progress, but you'll find some links in there that will help you. There are massive amounts of documentation to be found, not just forum threads. You just haven't searched hard enough for them yet =).
We have all gone through, and sometimes continue to go through, frustrations with learning new parts of the engine. If you weren't frustrated after a few months, then something is wrong with you.
You can't blame the documentation, or lack there of if that is your stance. It's available, covers just about everything in the basics and quite a few advanced concepts.
Keep at it, and keep checking that TDN link, because I add more to it on a daily basis. When I get to the scripting FAQ, I'll have a specific section dedicated to vehicle modification and creation.
Good luck =)
03/28/2007 (7:06 pm)
New TDN FAQIt's a work in progress, but you'll find some links in there that will help you. There are massive amounts of documentation to be found, not just forum threads. You just haven't searched hard enough for them yet =).
We have all gone through, and sometimes continue to go through, frustrations with learning new parts of the engine. If you weren't frustrated after a few months, then something is wrong with you.
You can't blame the documentation, or lack there of if that is your stance. It's available, covers just about everything in the basics and quite a few advanced concepts.
Keep at it, and keep checking that TDN link, because I add more to it on a daily basis. When I get to the scripting FAQ, I'll have a specific section dedicated to vehicle modification and creation.
Good luck =)
#4
My frustration is mostly because the the documentation seems to me very light. And I mean the documentation that are actually made as documentation. In my opinion forums and FAQ's can not be compared to properly documentation. It's like if your math teacher says he won't really bother about teaching you math, "so many people out there knows math, just ask one of them if you run into trouble". This in my opinion isn't good enough.
The GettingStarted.pdf claims "Any object with a datablock can have an onCollision function, which is automatically called when the object collides with another object.", however I cannot find this functions referenced in any documentation. And if i use the search function, I'm given 510 links to more or less useless forum threads. And this is very frustrating, cause I start thinking there might be other functions that is thrown automatically by the engine, that I don't know about. Like onCreate(), onDestroy(), onUpdate() or something like that, and I can't find any documentation!
And while the vehicle I have created for testing keeps bouncing of into outher space, or falls straight through the terrain, I keep altering the spring forces, but are the forces are in Newton and the mass in kilograms? The documentation doesn't say (and this is in my opinion essential information), and I can't find the reason why my "car" suddenly wants to explore outer space. Actually, after about 10 seconds or so the whole engine freezes up, so I'll have to Ctrl-Alt-Delete my way out of the whole mess. I don't know if thats a bug or if the scripts alone could do that. But, believe me, it's very annoying when all you can do is alter the variables and "see what happens".
But my original thread was regarding the documentation, and I guess that what you're saying is that there isn't anything else out there than what I've already found. But thanks anyway!
03/29/2007 (4:42 am)
First of all, thanks to all of you for your responses. I really appreciate the help.My frustration is mostly because the the documentation seems to me very light. And I mean the documentation that are actually made as documentation. In my opinion forums and FAQ's can not be compared to properly documentation. It's like if your math teacher says he won't really bother about teaching you math, "so many people out there knows math, just ask one of them if you run into trouble". This in my opinion isn't good enough.
The GettingStarted.pdf claims "Any object with a datablock can have an onCollision function, which is automatically called when the object collides with another object.", however I cannot find this functions referenced in any documentation. And if i use the search function, I'm given 510 links to more or less useless forum threads. And this is very frustrating, cause I start thinking there might be other functions that is thrown automatically by the engine, that I don't know about. Like onCreate(), onDestroy(), onUpdate() or something like that, and I can't find any documentation!
And while the vehicle I have created for testing keeps bouncing of into outher space, or falls straight through the terrain, I keep altering the spring forces, but are the forces are in Newton and the mass in kilograms? The documentation doesn't say (and this is in my opinion essential information), and I can't find the reason why my "car" suddenly wants to explore outer space. Actually, after about 10 seconds or so the whole engine freezes up, so I'll have to Ctrl-Alt-Delete my way out of the whole mess. I don't know if thats a bug or if the scripts alone could do that. But, believe me, it's very annoying when all you can do is alter the variables and "see what happens".
But my original thread was regarding the documentation, and I guess that what you're saying is that there isn't anything else out there than what I've already found. But thanks anyway!
#5
GG Official Documentation
Main TDN Documentation
User Submitted Torque Script documentation
Have you read through those thorough documentation links yet?
*EDIT*-I know they cover wheeledVehicle and onCollision stuff, as well as some vehicle physics tips.
03/29/2007 (6:11 am)
Did you actually go to the section that contained links to non-"light" documentation?GG Official Documentation
Main TDN Documentation
User Submitted Torque Script documentation
Have you read through those thorough documentation links yet?
*EDIT*-I know they cover wheeledVehicle and onCollision stuff, as well as some vehicle physics tips.
#6
Again, thanks a lot for the help. The third one was new to me, and although I've only briefly looked at it, it looks like just what I was asking for. I feel that something like this should have been supplied with the SDK. After all it's not easy to use Torque if your don't know the functions and their parameters.
So thanks a lot! I'll take a closer look at it later, but hopefully it's what I was looking for.
A.P.
03/29/2007 (8:01 am)
Hi again!Again, thanks a lot for the help. The third one was new to me, and although I've only briefly looked at it, it looks like just what I was asking for. I feel that something like this should have been supplied with the SDK. After all it's not easy to use Torque if your don't know the functions and their parameters.
So thanks a lot! I'll take a closer look at it later, but hopefully it's what I was looking for.
A.P.
#7
03/29/2007 (8:05 am)
Glad that might be of some help. If you are still stuck, I'll try to help out personally with the problem. . . 
#8
03/29/2007 (8:06 am)
You should have seen it 6 years ago
#9
documentation is merely a reference for the source code.
you should be able to localize on a section of code that is relevant to your task.
and study it, the header files the example usage, and then follow up with doc perhaps if still required.
I rarely use doc, its a waste of time.
too much fluff. header files and source code prove to be much faster.
03/29/2007 (8:46 am)
Doc from 6 years ago, would need as much work as the engine to maintain.documentation is merely a reference for the source code.
you should be able to localize on a section of code that is relevant to your task.
and study it, the header files the example usage, and then follow up with doc perhaps if still required.
I rarely use doc, its a waste of time.
too much fluff. header files and source code prove to be much faster.
#10
If your vehicle is bouncing around the terrain then shoots off into space try deleteing the bounds box then build a new one without scaling it up or down in size. If you're using Max you should only adjust the size of the bounds by either converting the geometry to an editable mesh and then moving the verts or use the parameter values of the geomtry before you convert to an editable mesh. If you use the scale function in the tool bar on the bounds box it creates a glych resulting in the wild behaviour of the model.
Torque's documentation is getting better but things like what I describe are not in it, which you'd think would be. Certain critical modeling problems that could be outlined in basic documentation but aren't create the level of frustration common to new Torque users. For that reason its not fair for Associates or users in the know to talk up the doucmentation.
03/29/2007 (9:10 am)
@ArildIf your vehicle is bouncing around the terrain then shoots off into space try deleteing the bounds box then build a new one without scaling it up or down in size. If you're using Max you should only adjust the size of the bounds by either converting the geometry to an editable mesh and then moving the verts or use the parameter values of the geomtry before you convert to an editable mesh. If you use the scale function in the tool bar on the bounds box it creates a glych resulting in the wild behaviour of the model.
Torque's documentation is getting better but things like what I describe are not in it, which you'd think would be. Certain critical modeling problems that could be outlined in basic documentation but aren't create the level of frustration common to new Torque users. For that reason its not fair for Associates or users in the know to talk up the doucmentation.
#11
I am in the process of updating A LOT of the old docs and creating "How-to" video tutorials for torque..
Expect to hear and see more about those in the next week or two :-)
and yes, that sounds like a bounds box problem.
03/29/2007 (9:20 am)
We in the community are well aware of the lack of documentation, especially for beginners. I am in the process of updating A LOT of the old docs and creating "How-to" video tutorials for torque..
Expect to hear and see more about those in the next week or two :-)
and yes, that sounds like a bounds box problem.
#12
I sayd this for years. Why I was not listened to like him?
Do you have personal preferences, or know me in either way?
How troll am I......
Let's just wait a discussion about export tools and relative support.
Bye, Tro[ehm] Berserk.
.
03/29/2007 (9:20 am)
How troll am I now?I sayd this for years. Why I was not listened to like him?
Do you have personal preferences, or know me in either way?
How troll am I......
Let's just wait a discussion about export tools and relative support.
Bye, Tro[ehm] Berserk.
.
#13
03/29/2007 (9:23 am)
Hey Ed, if you want help with the collaboration, we can probably share some resources and documentation since we are working toward the same goal.
#14
That said, TDN to me is a HUGE improvement over what was available in the past. While it still has the annoying tendency to have a link to exactly the info I am looking for, and then come up with a "coming soon" page, I give GG and anyone who writes a doc for TDN snaps for their effort.
Additionally, I think that the answer to "use the forums" as documentation is really cruel. Yes, I typically am able to find the answer to a question from some forum post somewhere, but I also know that doing a search of the forums requires a little black magic and ,maybe, some eye of newt in order to get the search engine to cough up something relevant. For a newbie who is excited to get started, it can be a bad experience. For example, a person might think that they will find more relevant info by searching using the "all" filter. This, in my experience, is not true. If you actually select the "forums" filter, you get way more responses. But, after having supposedly searched "all" of the available resources and not found anything useful, a newbie might become frustrated and give up...
03/29/2007 (9:26 am)
I have to agree with A.Phil on this one. The simple fact that newbies have to ask where the documentation is, and then are provided with various links to incomplete and/or semi-relevant docs referencing out of date versions of the engine is a little laughable.That said, TDN to me is a HUGE improvement over what was available in the past. While it still has the annoying tendency to have a link to exactly the info I am looking for, and then come up with a "coming soon" page, I give GG and anyone who writes a doc for TDN snaps for their effort.
Additionally, I think that the answer to "use the forums" as documentation is really cruel. Yes, I typically am able to find the answer to a question from some forum post somewhere, but I also know that doing a search of the forums requires a little black magic and ,maybe, some eye of newt in order to get the search engine to cough up something relevant. For a newbie who is excited to get started, it can be a bad experience. For example, a person might think that they will find more relevant info by searching using the "all" filter. This, in my experience, is not true. If you actually select the "forums" filter, you get way more responses. But, after having supposedly searched "all" of the available resources and not found anything useful, a newbie might become frustrated and give up...
#15
I hope to replace those examples with this:
"How do I do this?"
Here's the concept: (insert info here)
Here's some sample code: (insert sample code)
Here are links to some threads and resources talking about it: (insert links here)
"Can Torque do this?"
Yes, and it would be a # out of 10 in difficulty to implement because of ______.
Here are the files to look at (insert file names)
Here is some starter code (insert starter code)
Here are some links discussing this issue (insert links)
That's my goal, and from the looks of it, the goal of Ed and others. Wish us luck. . .
03/29/2007 (9:34 am)
@Thomas, @Arild, @Badguy - All valid points, which is why some of us are now taking the time to address this issue and try our best to update docs, complete a lot of TDN articles, and change the answers to questions such as "How do I do this?" (a: go to the forums) "Can Torque do this?" (a: you have the source, so yes it can).I hope to replace those examples with this:
"How do I do this?"
Here's the concept: (insert info here)
Here's some sample code: (insert sample code)
Here are links to some threads and resources talking about it: (insert links here)
"Can Torque do this?"
Yes, and it would be a # out of 10 in difficulty to implement because of ______.
Here are the files to look at (insert file names)
Here is some starter code (insert starter code)
Here are some links discussing this issue (insert links)
That's my goal, and from the looks of it, the goal of Ed and others. Wish us luck. . .
#16
03/29/2007 (10:09 am)
Wow. That's awesome Michael and Ed. It looks like you have really thought about the issues and come up with a plan to solve them. Good luck and Good job!
#18
Why should you choose torque over Irrlicht? Torque is a complete basic game engine. Now, if you just want to code pretty things on the screen, then Irrlicht is your choice. I started working with irrlicht, then, after figureing out my coding skills lacked in every department, moved to tge.
The statement remains...if you like torque, use it. If not, use something else. Personally, I think you have an underlying love of tge that you are just hiding and pretending not to like it. ;-)
03/30/2007 (8:17 pm)
Quote:2) If I were about to buy a game engine, I don't see why should I choose Torque against Irrlicht, knowing I would have to code most of my game in C++ rather than in TorqueScript.
Quote:Irrlicht, C4, 3impact, PowerRender, (insert others here) are full game enginewich needs C++ code and includes C++ source (not so sure about 3impact by the way).Actually, you are incorrect about Irrlicht. It's not a game engine at all. It is only a graphics renderer.
Why should you choose torque over Irrlicht? Torque is a complete basic game engine. Now, if you just want to code pretty things on the screen, then Irrlicht is your choice. I started working with irrlicht, then, after figureing out my coding skills lacked in every department, moved to tge.
The statement remains...if you like torque, use it. If not, use something else. Personally, I think you have an underlying love of tge that you are just hiding and pretending not to like it. ;-)
#19
I won't say anything about when the first revisions of the big docs will be released, but I'll be doing a massive update to the FAQ I mentioned in my previous posts this weekend.
I can respond to your post, this time, Berserk because I think it brought up a couple of interesting points, with no malice at all =).
First, in no way were we hired or asked to do this by any associate or employee of GarageGames. Due to your desires, and that of many other community members, this is a voluntary project we want to do.
Speaking on my own behalf, this is my way of giving back what everyone has provided me over the years, and this will also benefit my company and the team working on "The Mark", who have little-to-no TGE experience.
I wish I could talk about the things I've done with the engine in terms of C++ modifications. I actually spend more of my time in the source code, than in the scripts now-a-days. Due to the nature of my job, and the relationship it has with the gov/military, I'm not at liberty to discuss what I've changed and implemented.
Rest assured, in my opinion (for whatever it amounts to), I've found TGE is easily modified via script and C++. The only part of the overall engine I have barely touched is the part dealing with .dts and .dsq loading/storage. Everything else dealing with physics, game play, networking, utilities, eye candy, and whatever else you can name, I've modified or created in TGE using just the forums and documents provided on this site.
Yes the documentation can be better, and that's what our goal is: Being a part of the solution, and not the problem.
I continue to invite all e-mails and posts regarding FAQs and tutorials you want to see created, or updated, for this project.
*EDITS*- Grammar, commas, hanging participles, "nonsensical blabber", ranting reduction.
03/30/2007 (8:51 pm)
Quick announcement. Ed and I have had our first talk and compared notes. This is going to be a good collaboration which will benefit everyone, and I'm wicked excited about where it will go.I won't say anything about when the first revisions of the big docs will be released, but I'll be doing a massive update to the FAQ I mentioned in my previous posts this weekend.
I can respond to your post, this time, Berserk because I think it brought up a couple of interesting points, with no malice at all =).
First, in no way were we hired or asked to do this by any associate or employee of GarageGames. Due to your desires, and that of many other community members, this is a voluntary project we want to do.
Speaking on my own behalf, this is my way of giving back what everyone has provided me over the years, and this will also benefit my company and the team working on "The Mark", who have little-to-no TGE experience.
I wish I could talk about the things I've done with the engine in terms of C++ modifications. I actually spend more of my time in the source code, than in the scripts now-a-days. Due to the nature of my job, and the relationship it has with the gov/military, I'm not at liberty to discuss what I've changed and implemented.
Rest assured, in my opinion (for whatever it amounts to), I've found TGE is easily modified via script and C++. The only part of the overall engine I have barely touched is the part dealing with .dts and .dsq loading/storage. Everything else dealing with physics, game play, networking, utilities, eye candy, and whatever else you can name, I've modified or created in TGE using just the forums and documents provided on this site.
Yes the documentation can be better, and that's what our goal is: Being a part of the solution, and not the problem.
I continue to invite all e-mails and posts regarding FAQs and tutorials you want to see created, or updated, for this project.
*EDITS*- Grammar, commas, hanging participles, "nonsensical blabber", ranting reduction.
#20
@berserk: last time I checked, Torque was in C++, and since you have the source, so you can rip out the scripting language altogether (albeit not fun). Also, many other 'standard' game engines have scripting languages, so I'm not sure why this is a problem.
03/30/2007 (9:10 pm)
I didn't mind working on the TDN documentation, but comments such as 'TDN is laughable' aren't the best to describe the situation. Most people decide to put help information on separate websites and folders, creating a mess of posts, websites, and blogs to go through. If more people were encouraged to use TDN, then it would be easier for beginners to start, with everything in one central location, instead of cluttered messes that resources and posts create. It would be nice to have moderators for TDN to keep the docs updated and moving, not just stagnant, along with schedules to when certain updates will occur. Usually there are only two people in the TDN IRC room when I'm on (usually less), which isn't exactly helpful.@berserk: last time I checked, Torque was in C++, and since you have the source, so you can rip out the scripting language altogether (albeit not fun). Also, many other 'standard' game engines have scripting languages, so I'm not sure why this is a problem.
Torque Owner DodongoXP
but its true.. torque is just badly documented.. and tdn is close to useless .. as mostly is incomplete or in a eternal coming soon
i think i find it more useful the old torque 1.3 docs that are also in this site ( developer -> torque game engine )
torque is mostly .. find out everything by yourself ... and that is a huge shame .. because torque is a wonderful tool.. that i like it very much... but the lack of docs is simply frustrating
even the most powerful tool is useless if the people doesnt know how to use it
cheers