Tgea Editor?

#1 Press F11 & F10

#2 Ahh yes got it, can the viewports be changed, I just see perspective, what about top and side views ie a 4 windowed view

Also I am a little confused on the method used here, for the BSP we use outside programs and port into Torque, but for small objects we use a different format dts and open torque editor and place these in manually, I am wondering on exactly what constitutes BSP and the other format, now I am wondering if this is used exactly like static meshes are used in the unreal engine, I have heard it saves performance, that BSP is best for calculating collision, that the other dts is best for decorations, but there is a fine line between geometry and decorations, especially large stuff, is this other format also quicker for say if I wanted a pillar, having like 20 pillars in a room as BSP may take a lot of system resources, but having 20 in the dts format if it works like unreal engines static meshes would save system resources. but pillars are big, they have collision and so would a door frame in a castle, so I am wondering how the dts format is used best.

So what I want to know is what is the deal.

#3 There are no other viewports available, only perspective.

Torque uses two file formats for geometries.

The .dif file format:

- Used for BSP based geometry.
- An external BPS based editor (that can save to the .map format) must be used to create .dif files. You must purchase this separately from the engine or if you're game use a free one. Once you have your .map file, you need to convert it to a .dif file via a supplied plugin. In some cases, highly detailed structures will not export correctly/receive correct lighting.
- Has more advanced collision detection than the .dts format (at the cost of performance).
- Use static lightmaps meaning the scene will have to be relit when first placed in a mission or if they are moved. This also means that they really are meant to be static objects i.e. not good for moving platforms, sliding doors etc.
- Typically used for building structures that require accurate collision detection or any structure that a player can enter.

The .dts format:

- Used for simple static shapes that don't require accurate collision volumes (i.e. simple box type shapes).
- Can contain animations.
- Typically used for player models, weapons, trees, rocks, small ornamental level props like signs, seats etc.
- Are created in and exported from modeling applications like 3ds Max, Maya, Blender etc that have a .dts plugin available.
- For a .dts to use collision, you must manually draw collision boxes that encompass the basic shape of your mesh.

#4 In the scene we see 3 objects, the yellow box room, a blue vertical pillar and a horizontal bar, just 3 objects but the 2 decorations have been repeated many times.
see link -
http://www.avantivita.com/PDF/BSP-DTS.jpg

In yellow its a box room, this is BSP, but see the blue objects, thats the rooms decoration, makes it more interesting than just a flat box room, now do we do them as bsp or as dts. if we do it as bsp we can create that quite easily, but if we do it as dts, we will have trouble placing the objects due to the torque editor only having perspective view point, I'm also guessing it doesn't have a snap to grid for placing objects, snapping to grid is essential for placing objects in exactly the right place with ease, as is having 4 viewpoints, not just perspective.

The example used 3 objects, if this was all bsp it is not 3 objects, but lots of separate ones, would dts treat the pillars and bars as 2 objects but placed many times in the room, therefore saving system resources.

What is the method of building this room for torque?

#5 Typically you would create a scene like that as a bsp. I'm sure you're familiar with the restrictions of bsp based geometry (no complicated shapes) so ultimately some decoration type objects will need to be dts and yes placement of these objects will be cumbersome due to only having the perspective viewport.

To be honest with you, Torque shines as an engine for vast outdoor environments; interior support is not as good.

#6 I'm used to working in unreal ed I have used that for years, that used to be BSP based, you could make any shape you pleased, the whole thing would be bsp maps, then with later versions of the engine they added static meshes, the basic shell level would be built with BSP, but all details would be static meshes that had a simpler collision hull, much more efficient for doing details as bsp is heavier on system resources if one has boat loads of brushes, its not practical to use bsp, static meshes also made file size smaller because if you had like 30 static meshes of say a single pillar, it just had that down as not 20 objects, but one object, and its position in the map.

Now torque sounds a little like unreal ed, perhaps? But I don't think it is entirely as you would have 4 viewpoints for placing meshes, so it sounds like not much is placed as dts, only weapons and characters, not loads of meshes for details otherwise it would have 4 viewpoints, unless you can hot key camera poitions, or press a button and have the camera be in the same location but from a different perspective, also for object positioning you need wire frame views, does it have that?

It seems as if torque is a bit like unreal editor is with BSP and static meshes being the same as dts, but having placement tools not catered for makes me think otherwise, unless I am missing functioning of how to work fast in torque.

#7 I've used Unreal Ed for the purposes of modding and I fully understand the concept of creating a shell via bsp and decorating it with meshes which are brought in from external modeling applications. Torque isn't set up for this type of use, nor will it allow instancing of multiple objects. Doesn't mean you can't do it this way, just means it's more difficult than in other engines I use (C4 for example).

Your best bet is to play around with the demo and see how you go.

#8 No instance of multiple objects, thats a real shame.
I could do with looking at maps others have made, are there good places/examples for these? thats the best way to learn.
The demo map is a bit simple to see whats a good way to learn best to look at comunity mappers and see what they have done.

#9 No instance of multiple objects, thats a real shame.
I could do with looking at maps others have made, are there good places/examples for these? that's the best way to learn.
The demo map is a bit simple to see whats a good way to learn best to look at community mappers and see what they have done.

I just opened the editor for a look round the demo level, it seems that looking at someones maps is not the answer as one cannot see a wireframe view, so one doesn't know what is bsp and what is dts, from playing in the editor it I come to this conclusion, you build everything out of bsp, apart from pick ups and characters and vehicles. You could use dts for objects outside as they don't need careful placement just slap them on some terrain, Ive been told dts is for everything decrative, but it cant be as there is no snap to grid and not other view ports bar perspective and no wire frame views, so it seems that the editor is just to look that everything is looking correct and to place game objects that do soemthing, like characters, animated meshes, guns pick ups that sort of thing, but everything else, all level geometry, every pillar, every butress every detail should all be bsp made in your editor of choice, because if not then placing hundreds of dts models is impossible for fine placement, for example is we had a castle with the battlement, (the squares on the top of the wall)

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/1/17/Battlement.jpg

placing vast numbers of these in exactly the correct place with no wireframe view, only in perspective with no grid snap is impossible, dragging them with those xyz points would be impossible, so I think the info I have been given that says that all decoration is dts is wrong, I havnt seen maps on here, though the site is very extensive and that can make it hard to find what you are looking for. but the levels I have seen are in whole outdoor locations, the objects don't need pin point placement, the indoor locations are sparsely decorated so again they don't have hundreds of meshes decorating them, so using dts is not that hard, but placing hundreds of dts objects with pinpoint accuracy, forget it, unless I am missing a technique, perhaps one can place them in max and import them into torque and have them all be in the correct place, that would do it, but place each individual mesh in torque in the mission maker, just impossible.

This page from torque seems to say what I thought about not using dts for decorations
http://www.garagegames.com/docs/tge/general/ch07.html#maya.whatis

#10 You're not missing anything. As I said, Torque is far better suited to outdoor environments than indoor.

There are no viewports, no grid, and no grid snap. You have to place ALL your objects within the 3D viewport. You are correct, accurate placement of objects is not as easy as it should be.

As a level designer it's up to you to work out the best mix of bsp and dts. So for a typical basic outdoor level, you would create, shape and paint your terrain. Then decorate with dts based trees, rocks and the like. You would create any interiors, buildings, structures that the player can enter as a bsp and proceed to fill those areas with dts props.

An editor tip:

- If you select an object in the editor and hit F3 you will be presented with the properties of that object. From here you can manually enter transforms. You will also be able to determine what type of object it is (bsp or dts).

There's a program that Garage Games are developing named Constructor that may address some of the issues we discussed.

#11 On the subject of viewports, though, would it be very difficult to code a camera that works on orthographic projection instead of perspective geometry? By which I mean a 'Diablo'-style camera that has no concept of near-far, just a set (for example) isometric view? Not that I really need one, but (what makes this on topic) one could theoretically address the viewport issue (set bla bla bla key to left orthographic view, etc.). That could also help with a 3d game that needs a certain sidescrolling section, etc. The imagination's the limit.

#12 QUOTE - That could also help with a 3d game that needs a certain sidescrolling section, etc. The imagination's the limit.

Good point, I wanted to do that with a future game, use it to do a side scrolling 3d game.

Also if Torque has a function to key in the position, then we could make the game in an outside program, place the objects to the correct position, then use that programs object properties to tell us the exact position of all the objects, then is torque we could then just key in the objects properties from our other program, perhaps this would work.

If this would work then the problem is solved.

#13 Same as unreal engines static meshes?

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GarageDeveloper Newsletter - January 26, 2007


Torque Game Engine Advanced 1.0


Scene Management

Portal based interiors with seamless integration with the terrain engine. Buildings can be instanced, placed, manipulated and scaled with the world editor


Meshes

Mesh Loading

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Torque Game Engine 1.5 has the same features as above, so one told me the engine cannot instance, here it says it can, I presume this is dts and not BSP as I have never heard of instanced bsp. so if meshes are instanced, then its exactly the same as unreal engines static meshes then, it also says mesh loading, I presume it means that the meshes load when the player comes to that part of the map, so they are not there when the player does not see them, so this keeps the map file size down, as a map with hundreds of dts objects will make a levels file size huge, but by loading them in on the fly it keeps map sizes small, Is that correct, if so then Torque can be used for massive levels that load in the game on the fly, well load in the meshes on the fly, so in theory I could make a huge level like a whole city of dts buildings with hundreds of buildings but keep the map fast as it will only bring up meshes when the player comes to them, so we could if we wanted build a big morg game, am I understanding mesh loading correctly.

#14 Hi all,

I'm finding that I'm having trouble with the TGEA program. I press F11 and F10, as in the TGE setup, but it doesn't bring me into the Editor. It doesn't do anything actually. I stay at the current screen. The only interface I can seem to bring up is the GUI editor.

Is this some kind of funcationality that has to be enabled somehow in TGEA?

Thanks!