Biting the Bullet
by Matt Fairfax · in Artist Corner · 06/12/2002 (12:21 pm) · 47 replies
I am a programmer by trade and inclination but I do have strong artistic tendencies. In the past I have been very frustrated by my complete reliance on artists to supply me with assets for my games. I have a very good modeller friend but he is simply too busy to do much and I haven't been able to fall in with another 3D artist of his professional caliber. This (and other RL factors) led me to put aside programming and to concentrate on modelling and I have made a fair amount of progress in the last 6 months. Then I went to E3 this year and was enlightened. I was visiting a game development studio with a friend (he was fixing bugs in their E3 demo) and I had a chance to wander around the artists' area. Looking at their concept art and thinking back to the models I had seen in their games I realized that while I was confident I could reach their level of creativity and skill, it would take me somthing like 10 years to achieve! Meanwhile, I had just sat in a room full of professional game programmers and had felt completely at home and was able to offer them worthwhile suggestions. That was I realized that, while I will always have artistic tendencies, I really should be a programmer.
This, however, led me back to my original frustration over having to rely on casual artists who really aren't concerned with my vision of the game and feel that I should be grateful that they modelled anything at all for me. That is not to say to that I am not grateful to any artist who helps me out =) but sometimes I have something specific in mind and if the artist decides to make it differently then tough for me.
It seems to me that in order to get exactly what I want I am going to have to offer money for it. I have started this with a post in the Help Wanted Ads (www.garagegames.com/index.php?sec=mg&mod=project&page=view.job&qid=1570) but I wanted to get some feedback from others on whether or not they felt the amount I am offering is fair. For simple characters I was thinking in the $15-$25 range, depending on the amount of animations required. Later (my current project is only going to use simple models), I was thinking of offering around $50 for more complex models (a fully animated dragon for example ;) I know this won't buy me any professional modellers but I figure it would be sufficient to entice some talented ametuers w/o killing my bank account. I was thinking that payment would be on delivery once I satisfied with the model (looking at screenshots and avi's of the animations).
So what do you think? Does this sound reasonable? Think I'm a retard? Chime on in!
This, however, led me back to my original frustration over having to rely on casual artists who really aren't concerned with my vision of the game and feel that I should be grateful that they modelled anything at all for me. That is not to say to that I am not grateful to any artist who helps me out =) but sometimes I have something specific in mind and if the artist decides to make it differently then tough for me.
It seems to me that in order to get exactly what I want I am going to have to offer money for it. I have started this with a post in the Help Wanted Ads (www.garagegames.com/index.php?sec=mg&mod=project&page=view.job&qid=1570) but I wanted to get some feedback from others on whether or not they felt the amount I am offering is fair. For simple characters I was thinking in the $15-$25 range, depending on the amount of animations required. Later (my current project is only going to use simple models), I was thinking of offering around $50 for more complex models (a fully animated dragon for example ;) I know this won't buy me any professional modellers but I figure it would be sufficient to entice some talented ametuers w/o killing my bank account. I was thinking that payment would be on delivery once I satisfied with the model (looking at screenshots and avi's of the animations).
So what do you think? Does this sound reasonable? Think I'm a retard? Chime on in!
About the author
I am a Game Designer at PopCap who has worked on PvZ Adventures, PvZ2, Peggle Blast, and Bejeweled Skies. I am an ex-GarageGames employee who helped ship TGE, TGEA, Torque 3D, and Constructor.
#2
Take your statement and reverse it... what would you code for $15 to $25? On the other hand, if you already had some code, would you sell the rights for it's use at this rate?
One thing you may want to do is look around on the web for art that is already done for mods and stuff... and then offer the artist some money for it... I was involved in an unoffical Quake2 addon called Juggernaut for Quake2(sold in stores) and this is exactly what we did... $100.00 for people's .map files...
Programmer art is obviously not something your average consumer will pay money for... an issue with many many projects
-J
06/12/2002 (12:36 pm)
There are consignment web sites were you can buy art for smallish amounts of money... I haven't looked far enough to see if this is a usage (as in a commercial product) license..Take your statement and reverse it... what would you code for $15 to $25? On the other hand, if you already had some code, would you sell the rights for it's use at this rate?
One thing you may want to do is look around on the web for art that is already done for mods and stuff... and then offer the artist some money for it... I was involved in an unoffical Quake2 addon called Juggernaut for Quake2(sold in stores) and this is exactly what we did... $100.00 for people's .map files...
Programmer art is obviously not something your average consumer will pay money for... an issue with many many projects
-J
#3
You'd think there'd be tons of aspirant modelers out there who'd like to help get a studio off the ground and maybe make some scratch. You'd also think there'd be some way for them and the likes of us to find each other out but it's been slow going.
I've been considering shelling out cash for a bit as well. To get a talented amateur you might need to start at 100.00 and expect the results to be very generic.
It'd be worth it, buying back the time you'd spend here and at polycount and skindom scouring and hoping.
I've also been considering placing ads with Craigslist (70.00 per ad, per category) and even *swallows hard* Gamasutra (300.00 a pop). I'd be interested in hearing anything anyone had to say about gamasutra in particular.
06/12/2002 (12:46 pm)
I forget the title of the thread, but this conversation -or one strkingly close to it- wound up in a bout of spleen venting about denying artists a living or similar and some back and forth pointing and scoffing.You'd think there'd be tons of aspirant modelers out there who'd like to help get a studio off the ground and maybe make some scratch. You'd also think there'd be some way for them and the likes of us to find each other out but it's been slow going.
I've been considering shelling out cash for a bit as well. To get a talented amateur you might need to start at 100.00 and expect the results to be very generic.
It'd be worth it, buying back the time you'd spend here and at polycount and skindom scouring and hoping.
I've also been considering placing ads with Craigslist (70.00 per ad, per category) and even *swallows hard* Gamasutra (300.00 a pop). I'd be interested in hearing anything anyone had to say about gamasutra in particular.
#4
Anyway.. my team (www.acidstorm.net) offers this kind of service (models on demand)... but, 15$ really isn't enough. I'm sure there are people out there willing to work for this amount tough, altough quality will be questionable I think... with some luck you could find a experienced artist looking for a fun project tough.
06/12/2002 (12:48 pm)
I have no problem at all with finding artists... programmers are the problem!!Anyway.. my team (www.acidstorm.net) offers this kind of service (models on demand)... but, 15$ really isn't enough. I'm sure there are people out there willing to work for this amount tough, altough quality will be questionable I think... with some luck you could find a experienced artist looking for a fun project tough.
#5
From what I have seen, Turbo Squid is a/the leading consignment web site (comes bundled with 3dsmax 4.2 install) but I have never been able to find what I am looking for. The prices I'm asking seem to be in line with those on Turbo Squid though.
Actually, I contract out at $20/hr in RL =) For game programming I am currently making $0/hr. If someone offered me $15-$25 to work on something small and interesting and then I wouldn't turn them down =)
This reminded me of an idea I posted a while back in the Associates forum but never got much feedback on:
06/12/2002 (12:49 pm)
Quote:There are consignment web sites were you can buy art for smallish amounts of money... I haven't looked far enough to see if this is a usage (as in a commercial product) license..
From what I have seen, Turbo Squid is a/the leading consignment web site (comes bundled with 3dsmax 4.2 install) but I have never been able to find what I am looking for. The prices I'm asking seem to be in line with those on Turbo Squid though.
Quote:Take your statement and reverse it... what would you code for $15 to $25?
Actually, I contract out at $20/hr in RL =) For game programming I am currently making $0/hr. If someone offered me $15-$25 to work on something small and interesting and then I wouldn't turn them down =)
Quote:I would like to see more art resources... a sharing of art much like code is already... or something... hmmmm
This reminded me of an idea I posted a while back in the Associates forum but never got much feedback on:
Quote:I was thinking that maybe we should have a Prefabs forum in the SDK area. Each thread could be a category like Trees, Vehicles, Buildings, Guns - Futuristic, Guns - Realistic, Bushes, Player Models, Textures, and Music. I know some of these kind of things are ending up in Resources but they often are hard to find. Maybe a bit of reorganization in Resources would be a better answer *shrug*
I know that prefabs can lead some people to a lack of creativity but they can also be extrememly useful in helping to get someone started. For example, say you were a programmer who can't draw a straight line without an OpenGL call but you wanted to try to implement a game idea you had. Well, it can be very hard to attract artists with just a cool idea. Most times it is hard to implement any portion of the idea without some kind of placeholder art. With a solid set of prefabs, people would be able to quickly spec out a game and then get to refining it and attracting new team members from people who have actually gotten to play something. Most of the prefabs would be small models that an artist can throw together in an afternoon and wouldn't take time away from their own projects.
We could even have contests and stuff to help motivate people to contribute =)
The only major issue I see that would stop the community from doing this completely on their own would be where the prefab files would be hosted. I know that your resources are limited (mine are too) but maybe we could get a little folder on Fileplanet or something.
Anyway, this is something that has been on my mind for a while and I wanted to run it by you guys first before I started spamming the 3D modelling forum with Prefab threads.
#6
This would be a good time for artists to start working on content. I'm thinking around $30 for a starter pack of weapons. This would be Torque ready with low poly, textured, LoD, etc. Maybe $50 for a character pack. $20 for a texture pack.
I think these models would lead to further sales from the purchasers for customization, additional animations, different textures, etc.
How many could you sell?? I don't know. But, what if a weapon pack sold 50 units at $30 each? GG will collect a % for doing the credit card processing and distribution (we don't know how much yet, but it will be very reasonable). So, you make over $1,000, plus get your name out and create other business.
Now, what if you do this 10 times? Each time you do it, the sales are additive, i.e. the sale of one content pack does not deduct from the sale of the first one, it ADDS. So, a year from now, when the GG community is twice as big as it is now, and you have 10-15 content packs out there, you could be making semi-serious money. Maybe not enough to make a living, but with the added contract work, you are a helluva lot closer than the guy that sat back and said doing models for cheap isn't worth it.
Jeff Tunnell GG
06/12/2002 (1:14 pm)
Content packs are on our list, but I think there are other things we need to work on first. Once we have a true shopping cart, we will have the ability to sell many different things. Tim is working on the cart now in preparation for the Player's Site.This would be a good time for artists to start working on content. I'm thinking around $30 for a starter pack of weapons. This would be Torque ready with low poly, textured, LoD, etc. Maybe $50 for a character pack. $20 for a texture pack.
I think these models would lead to further sales from the purchasers for customization, additional animations, different textures, etc.
How many could you sell?? I don't know. But, what if a weapon pack sold 50 units at $30 each? GG will collect a % for doing the credit card processing and distribution (we don't know how much yet, but it will be very reasonable). So, you make over $1,000, plus get your name out and create other business.
Now, what if you do this 10 times? Each time you do it, the sales are additive, i.e. the sale of one content pack does not deduct from the sale of the first one, it ADDS. So, a year from now, when the GG community is twice as big as it is now, and you have 10-15 content packs out there, you could be making semi-serious money. Maybe not enough to make a living, but with the added contract work, you are a helluva lot closer than the guy that sat back and said doing models for cheap isn't worth it.
Jeff Tunnell GG
#7
The art source would need to be available(what you download), one time usage rights, with the provision of purchaser modification
Our company is already in the habit of buying texture cds and sfx cds
3d models and animations are elusive...
-J
06/12/2002 (1:21 pm)
I really hope this works... I would buy about every available pack in the scenario Jeff paints...The art source would need to be available(what you download), one time usage rights, with the provision of purchaser modification
Our company is already in the habit of buying texture cds and sfx cds
3d models and animations are elusive...
-J
#8
I'm not sure I agree about the price though.
It all depends on the time taken to produce the model and the quality.
I'm hopeful that some of the artists here could actually give us a "fair" price for models.
Here's an example.
1) How much to model + texture a weapon
2) How long would such a weapon model typically take to create and texture?
3) How long to do the same for a player model
4) How much would you charge for a player model?
Finally, animation, how much for a fully animated player model (modelling, texturing and animating).
I'd say that by experience, its anything from a day to about 3 days for a weapon, any anything from a week to a month for a character.
Now, if your paying someone a reasonable rate, thats got to amount to 50-100 dollars a day?
So in the order of 50-100 dollars for a weapon
500-2000 dollars for a player?
I'm kind of interested to hear what artists think about this.
Phil.
06/12/2002 (1:22 pm)
I'm with you Matt, definitely a low cost modelling artist is a much needed resource.I'm not sure I agree about the price though.
It all depends on the time taken to produce the model and the quality.
I'm hopeful that some of the artists here could actually give us a "fair" price for models.
Here's an example.
1) How much to model + texture a weapon
2) How long would such a weapon model typically take to create and texture?
3) How long to do the same for a player model
4) How much would you charge for a player model?
Finally, animation, how much for a fully animated player model (modelling, texturing and animating).
I'd say that by experience, its anything from a day to about 3 days for a weapon, any anything from a week to a month for a character.
Now, if your paying someone a reasonable rate, thats got to amount to 50-100 dollars a day?
So in the order of 50-100 dollars for a weapon
500-2000 dollars for a player?
I'm kind of interested to hear what artists think about this.
Phil.
#9
I think it comes down to a couple of things. First, professionalism on the artist's part...being able to take a critique or suggestion and to not take it personally. Secondly, trust on the game designer's part (in this case me) that the artist will with/in their vision. Currently, I don't have an artist that I can trust like that me so i feel like the only way I can get that is to add money into the equation. Then it comes down to either you make something I am happy with (doesn't have to be what I envisioned even) or you don't get paid. I am willing to pay half up front if the artist can convince me of their credentials. It may be that I am not going to be able to find an artist like this at the prices I am offering but I thought it worth a try. Hopefully, I might even be able to build relationships with some artists so that I can work with them and trust them in the future.
06/12/2002 (1:22 pm)
I guess my target audience is for the amateur modeller who is doing this for fun and wouldn't mind making a little money to do what they normally would do for free. The money is so that I can attract them to me and can offer some input into the model. I'm not going to be very picky over a $25 model but I would like to have some say. One thing I love about working with my friend who is a professional modeller (when he has time) is that I can say, "No, that isn't quite what I was looking for...can you do it more like this?" and he doesn't get bent out of shape. A lot of amateur modellers I have run into do! To me that is the biggest difference between an amateur artist and a professional artist no matter what their experience is. This is not to say I am not open to creative license on the artist's part. My friend has done handed me some truly awesome models that went well beyond my vision and added something profound to the game. I am very flexible but I want the ability to say yea or nay in the end.I think it comes down to a couple of things. First, professionalism on the artist's part...being able to take a critique or suggestion and to not take it personally. Secondly, trust on the game designer's part (in this case me) that the artist will with/in their vision. Currently, I don't have an artist that I can trust like that me so i feel like the only way I can get that is to add money into the equation. Then it comes down to either you make something I am happy with (doesn't have to be what I envisioned even) or you don't get paid. I am willing to pay half up front if the artist can convince me of their credentials. It may be that I am not going to be able to find an artist like this at the prices I am offering but I thought it worth a try. Hopefully, I might even be able to build relationships with some artists so that I can work with them and trust them in the future.
#10
Here, here! If you are making your living doing models already then more power to you but if you are like most of the artists here then a little money has got to be better than no money =)
06/12/2002 (1:33 pm)
Quote:Maybe not enough to make a living, but with the added contract work, you are a helluva lot closer than the guy that sat back and said doing models for cheap isn't worth it.
Here, here! If you are making your living doing models already then more power to you but if you are like most of the artists here then a little money has got to be better than no money =)
#11
06/12/2002 (1:41 pm)
As long as the real amateurs aren't harmed by having to pay for media when they really have zero budget. I'm making my game for fun with no intentions of selling it so I cannot afford to pay anyone for media. I just hope that people don't go money crazy when the system goes online for people to buy and download models from GG. "Why should I give you free models, when I can charge for them?". Just my concern.
#12
That said I usually contract out at $100+ an hour for my day job. Sometimes lower, sometimes higher, depends on the complexity, how difficult the client is and how big the project is. I tend to work on extremely large scale enterprise systems for very large companies.
Small projects = small money. I have no problem with that, I usually don't have the TIME for small stuff.
That said, I did 3D animation for a living at one time, Architecture and coding still pays MUCH better, and there are tonnes of samll things I would be willing to do for $25 dollars a pop, especially if it was stuff I had sitting around.
Granted fully articulated characters with complex animation would be cheaper, but weapons, items and other things are definately in the $25 range.
Maybe if you offered $25 per animation from pose to pose that would get you some interest.
Now texturing the models is another story :)
The time it takes to do something is not 1:1 with quality because someone that is experienced with a tool can whip out something much quicker than someone NOT experienced with a tool. Even though the end results might be identical, why pay MORE for someone that is slow?
The flip side is someone that is talented and experienced might take a long time producing something learning a new tool, but turn out a much better quality product that some untalented hack that knows how to use the tool and has no experience or talent.
It is not as cut and dry as some people want it to be.
06/12/2002 (1:45 pm)
To take someone to task on the prices, there is LOTS of code I would write for $25, especially code that I had already written. That said I usually contract out at $100+ an hour for my day job. Sometimes lower, sometimes higher, depends on the complexity, how difficult the client is and how big the project is. I tend to work on extremely large scale enterprise systems for very large companies.
Small projects = small money. I have no problem with that, I usually don't have the TIME for small stuff.
That said, I did 3D animation for a living at one time, Architecture and coding still pays MUCH better, and there are tonnes of samll things I would be willing to do for $25 dollars a pop, especially if it was stuff I had sitting around.
Granted fully articulated characters with complex animation would be cheaper, but weapons, items and other things are definately in the $25 range.
Maybe if you offered $25 per animation from pose to pose that would get you some interest.
Now texturing the models is another story :)
The time it takes to do something is not 1:1 with quality because someone that is experienced with a tool can whip out something much quicker than someone NOT experienced with a tool. Even though the end results might be identical, why pay MORE for someone that is slow?
The flip side is someone that is talented and experienced might take a long time producing something learning a new tool, but turn out a much better quality product that some untalented hack that knows how to use the tool and has no experience or talent.
It is not as cut and dry as some people want it to be.
#13
I think that Matt Fairfax's original rate suggestion is a "bit" too low for a piece of custom work. Usually the work that you see a low of a price (such as on Turbo Squid) is "canned" work that someone was already paid to produce and are selling non-exclusive at a bulk rate to recover their costs.
As stated before $25 per hour is a decent rate that some artist's might go for, but if you are too paranoid about the honesty of the artist you contract then agree to pay them a flat rate for the work. Also remember that the paranoia runs two ways, the artists is just as afraid of you taking off without paying as you are about paying and not recieving anything.
I would also draw up a standard work-for-hire contract so that both party's know what they are getting and what they must deliver. This will keep any stupid problems from popping up later on.
Also I would like to point out that many artists do work for free (ie. Pascal and myself work with Phil) or are even willing to trade work for work (ie. An artist on one team produces you X model and in return you write Y code for their team). This certainly might be a better option for you because both sides still come out ahead.
Logan
06/12/2002 (2:26 pm)
Although there is no need to get back into this "what is a fair rate for an artist's work" debate, here is what I think of what has been said thus far...I think that Matt Fairfax's original rate suggestion is a "bit" too low for a piece of custom work. Usually the work that you see a low of a price (such as on Turbo Squid) is "canned" work that someone was already paid to produce and are selling non-exclusive at a bulk rate to recover their costs.
As stated before $25 per hour is a decent rate that some artist's might go for, but if you are too paranoid about the honesty of the artist you contract then agree to pay them a flat rate for the work. Also remember that the paranoia runs two ways, the artists is just as afraid of you taking off without paying as you are about paying and not recieving anything.
I would also draw up a standard work-for-hire contract so that both party's know what they are getting and what they must deliver. This will keep any stupid problems from popping up later on.
Also I would like to point out that many artists do work for free (ie. Pascal and myself work with Phil) or are even willing to trade work for work (ie. An artist on one team produces you X model and in return you write Y code for their team). This certainly might be a better option for you because both sides still come out ahead.
Logan
#14
Look at all the mods in the world.
Look at all the work being done for free.
Some of those guys obviously are going to get taken up by the games industry, but what about the rest? what about the guys only 3/4 of the way there?
They could be at university or whatever. Wouldnt it make sense for them to get a little contract work here and there. I really dont think a few hundred dollars is out there in terms of pricing.
I'd rather swap work for work, but I'm surprised as hell that no-one has done a portal site that swaps models for money or services.
Phil.
06/12/2002 (3:07 pm)
It still surprises me that there isnt more of the "small scale modeller for hire" kind of thing going on.Look at all the mods in the world.
Look at all the work being done for free.
Some of those guys obviously are going to get taken up by the games industry, but what about the rest? what about the guys only 3/4 of the way there?
They could be at university or whatever. Wouldnt it make sense for them to get a little contract work here and there. I really dont think a few hundred dollars is out there in terms of pricing.
I'd rather swap work for work, but I'm surprised as hell that no-one has done a portal site that swaps models for money or services.
Phil.
#15
While some of the buildings simply need to be nice looking exteriors, I also have a number that should be detailed, and are fairly large.
One thing I am considering is laying out the groundwork for the buildings, writing up a document telling people what the areas within the building are. I figure this should save some time, and will help me quickly integrate the buildings back into my level. I guess the question is, will most mappers prefer this, or to have to come up with the whole thing with only a size and brief decription to start them off (Factory, 4096x2048?)
As for textures, I'm personally in the market. I've bought several packs from Marlin studios. Low cost game oriented packs here would definately be welcome and will probably sell well.
vic-D
06/12/2002 (4:51 pm)
I've been tossing around the idea of doing the same thing, but with buidings. I have a large number I need, and have come to the conclusion that I am far too inexperianced to finish them all in a timely matter. While some of the buildings simply need to be nice looking exteriors, I also have a number that should be detailed, and are fairly large.
One thing I am considering is laying out the groundwork for the buildings, writing up a document telling people what the areas within the building are. I figure this should save some time, and will help me quickly integrate the buildings back into my level. I guess the question is, will most mappers prefer this, or to have to come up with the whole thing with only a size and brief decription to start them off (Factory, 4096x2048?)
As for textures, I'm personally in the market. I've bought several packs from Marlin studios. Low cost game oriented packs here would definately be welcome and will probably sell well.
vic-D
#16
The only difference between how much people will pay is not the artwork, but the buyer. If one model costs $500 for a retail game, no one is going to buy a proportionately priced item at $50. Why? That'd mean the object was 10x worse than the one that went for $500. Who wants to use something that bad? Sure, the indie developer might pay $50 for the model some company paid $500 for but they certainly wouldn't touch it at full price. You think the artist would go for that? (I would! Any money is better than no money!)
The person paying small amounts per model want high quality for cheap; probably the indie developer. Those who can produce the high quality artwork and want to charge for it will probably not find a price that will make them happy.
The few people I've seen trying to sell their artwork either are making horrible stuff (Like Poser models exported as "cool realistic human male model!") or things that are over-priced for the average developer but do look very nice. Projects should just look for people willing to work on a payment on release or free "contract", and avoid the cost of buying materials all together.
Until some sort of standard or common pricing can be reached, you'll have JimmyJones selling his 100 poly Dodge Viper for $2.50 and some other person trying to sell a decent model to hobby developers for $350. Not quite bad if you look at quality received per dollar spent, but it's not something the average indie/hobby developer could want or afford.
06/12/2002 (5:19 pm)
While I'd like to see this work, I don't know how viable it is for people who are able to produce high quality content or buyers looking to produce a game with their own savings.The only difference between how much people will pay is not the artwork, but the buyer. If one model costs $500 for a retail game, no one is going to buy a proportionately priced item at $50. Why? That'd mean the object was 10x worse than the one that went for $500. Who wants to use something that bad? Sure, the indie developer might pay $50 for the model some company paid $500 for but they certainly wouldn't touch it at full price. You think the artist would go for that? (I would! Any money is better than no money!)
The person paying small amounts per model want high quality for cheap; probably the indie developer. Those who can produce the high quality artwork and want to charge for it will probably not find a price that will make them happy.
The few people I've seen trying to sell their artwork either are making horrible stuff (Like Poser models exported as "cool realistic human male model!") or things that are over-priced for the average developer but do look very nice. Projects should just look for people willing to work on a payment on release or free "contract", and avoid the cost of buying materials all together.
Until some sort of standard or common pricing can be reached, you'll have JimmyJones selling his 100 poly Dodge Viper for $2.50 and some other person trying to sell a decent model to hobby developers for $350. Not quite bad if you look at quality received per dollar spent, but it's not something the average indie/hobby developer could want or afford.
#17
But if they actually sat down and thought about the scale of the game theyre trying to achieve, then budgeting REAL money for models isnt that bad.
For instance, the cost of characters for a tony hawks style game?
My point is, if you cant afford to pay, and you cant get it free, then re-think.
Phil.
06/13/2002 (1:07 am)
It really depends on what the developer is trying to do. If theyre trying to do a MMORPG with 1000 characters, then yes, they probably couldnt afford 350 bucks.But if they actually sat down and thought about the scale of the game theyre trying to achieve, then budgeting REAL money for models isnt that bad.
For instance, the cost of characters for a tony hawks style game?
My point is, if you cant afford to pay, and you cant get it free, then re-think.
Phil.
#18
Personaly i don't find Matt's ofer verry atractive, because i don't like the subject that much but mainly because he thinks that the small fee he is paying gives him the right to let you redo it over and over again untill he likes it 100% now that is not going to work.
At least that's what i understand out of his first post.
If anyone want's full saying over content i create, they will have to pay me the full load. Thinking that $ 25 will cover all the work and will give you full say over the end product, isn't going to get you any where..
Choosing your subject and the style you will use to make it are an important part of the "FUN" that comes with the whole amateur modeling thing, there is no way $ 25 can make up for that.
You either work for fun or for the money. The once working for fun don't care about the money and won't sell out for $25 or even $100. The once working for money see the $25 and will stop reading and carry on..
Amateur modelers may think they want to get paid but they will soon loose intrest as soon as the find out that they are loosing a great bit of fun and that the money they get isn't making up for that...
I think what i am trying to say is that if you want to buy a model that is already made, it's up to the artist to see if he finds the $25 acceptable but i can understand he MIGHT sell it to you for that price under several conditions.. If you how ever want to get your self a model build for $25 and you want to be able to totaly tell what the artist have to make, you are definitly on the wrong track.
That's why i have more faith in what Jeff surgested. It's a good way to keep it intresting to all people...
06/13/2002 (1:43 am)
I believe in the freedom of the content packs, Jeff surgested. You get paid for making the stuff you like. Personaly i don't find Matt's ofer verry atractive, because i don't like the subject that much but mainly because he thinks that the small fee he is paying gives him the right to let you redo it over and over again untill he likes it 100% now that is not going to work.
At least that's what i understand out of his first post.
If anyone want's full saying over content i create, they will have to pay me the full load. Thinking that $ 25 will cover all the work and will give you full say over the end product, isn't going to get you any where..
Choosing your subject and the style you will use to make it are an important part of the "FUN" that comes with the whole amateur modeling thing, there is no way $ 25 can make up for that.
You either work for fun or for the money. The once working for fun don't care about the money and won't sell out for $25 or even $100. The once working for money see the $25 and will stop reading and carry on..
Amateur modelers may think they want to get paid but they will soon loose intrest as soon as the find out that they are loosing a great bit of fun and that the money they get isn't making up for that...
I think what i am trying to say is that if you want to buy a model that is already made, it's up to the artist to see if he finds the $25 acceptable but i can understand he MIGHT sell it to you for that price under several conditions.. If you how ever want to get your self a model build for $25 and you want to be able to totaly tell what the artist have to make, you are definitly on the wrong track.
That's why i have more faith in what Jeff surgested. It's a good way to keep it intresting to all people...
#19
06/13/2002 (2:32 am)
Wow Jeff, I'd LOVE to see something like this happen. How does one submit models? ;)
#20
If I want to have artwork, I want it to look nice. Chances are, if I want good art I'm going to have to pay a good deal for it.
That's not something I'm willing to do.
So simply put, I won't be buying any content from anyone. Unless someone's paying me, I won't be paying anyone else. I take offense (even though I shouldn't) when I see people asking for payment in a indie (hobby) community for their work when there are a dozen equally talented individuals doing it for free.
Not attractive to any artist, but damn if it's not the most wise path to take if your just looking for the artwork without using your entire paycheck.
For me: you do it for free, and up to the standard the rest of the team is producing their part or you hit the road. Sure, not going to fit into the dream of making contract artwork for tiny "companies" for indie projects, but heck if I can't find a replacement who will do it for the love of the development and chance for future payment (when we all get paid) instead of taking their cut before hand.
Not going to be the ideal situation for the artist who wants a few bucks, but you don't see me worried about finding willing and talented artists.
Anyway, I have yet to see pre-created content that really works well in any project I've worked on. I hate not having the control of some of the details, and I hate not having the original artist there to make changes. I wouldn't expect the artist to stick around to tailor it to my project, so that's why I wouldn't even consider paying for the artwork.
NOTE: I'm not saying this is a bad idea, quite the opposite. I'm just saying this isn't something I'd have a use for. Of course, don't interpret that as "I don't like it, so don't do it". I just offer a reason why many people might not want to use it.
06/13/2002 (2:34 am)
My offer wasn't meant to be attractive.If I want to have artwork, I want it to look nice. Chances are, if I want good art I'm going to have to pay a good deal for it.
That's not something I'm willing to do.
So simply put, I won't be buying any content from anyone. Unless someone's paying me, I won't be paying anyone else. I take offense (even though I shouldn't) when I see people asking for payment in a indie (hobby) community for their work when there are a dozen equally talented individuals doing it for free.
Not attractive to any artist, but damn if it's not the most wise path to take if your just looking for the artwork without using your entire paycheck.
For me: you do it for free, and up to the standard the rest of the team is producing their part or you hit the road. Sure, not going to fit into the dream of making contract artwork for tiny "companies" for indie projects, but heck if I can't find a replacement who will do it for the love of the development and chance for future payment (when we all get paid) instead of taking their cut before hand.
Not going to be the ideal situation for the artist who wants a few bucks, but you don't see me worried about finding willing and talented artists.
Anyway, I have yet to see pre-created content that really works well in any project I've worked on. I hate not having the control of some of the details, and I hate not having the original artist there to make changes. I wouldn't expect the artist to stick around to tailor it to my project, so that's why I wouldn't even consider paying for the artwork.
NOTE: I'm not saying this is a bad idea, quite the opposite. I'm just saying this isn't something I'd have a use for. Of course, don't interpret that as "I don't like it, so don't do it". I just offer a reason why many people might not want to use it.
Torque Owner Jeremy Noetzelman