Game ideas, realistic goals

#1 Fredrik,

Check out my little story...

One time, I got a guy who asks me to join his group. He asked me to create a scene that would involve massive amounts of hours. Anyway, I ask for an overview of the games, the story line, scripts for the characters and etc. Basically, I want to see a plan. He ignores this and continues to try to get me to *committ* to his game idea. I later find out, this guy has NOTHING! Not even a character made. He's got this ONE sketch that looked like it was done in paint. It looked ok, but seriously. He was more interested in getting me to kick off the project. If I had taken the bait, it would mean I would've invested more time into his little dream project that he did himself.

Total clown.

Start small, start simple. Just get the damn thing done. Good advice and good luck.

...sip...

#2 @Fredrik - I went to school for game design and development, and when you are surrounded by starry-eyed new students (like I was when I first arrived), you're bound to overhear or be invited into side projects with an enormous scope. Sadly, every other idea was an MMORPG, and those that weren't were some crazy 6-headed hybrid of every genre out there. I didn't join a single side project. Instead, I focused on the game project assignments which were usually smaller in scope and capable of reaching completion.

The game idea that successfully makes it to completion is the one that was fully designed on paper first. Yes, you can start programming immediately and pump out a good prototype, but if that prototype doesn't lead to several design sessions with a team, then the dev-cycle will be longer and harder. It simply comes down to this:

For Designers:

Quote:DESIGN IS LAW!

Lesson: Present a game idea without good documentation and well thought out details to any serious developer, and she/he will be less likely to join up.

For Programmers:

Quote:Read. Read Code. Code

That first part is key! Read the design doc. If there is no doc (God help you), read about games similar to what you are doing. That way, if the project lead complains about YOU not grasping the concept of his idea, blame it on the lack of documentation =)

#3 "That first part is key! Read the design doc. If there is no doc (God help you), read about games similar to what you are doing. That way, if the project lead complains about YOU not grasping the concept of his idea, blame it on the lack of documentation =)"

I thought a good programmer was supposed to be able to read the project lead's mind and produce EXACTLY what he envisions with no documentation whatsoever. Isn't there a course for that?

Yes, I've been asked to be on some huge scope projects and shook my head. What's really interesting is that, as a designer, I'll offer to write a DD if I think the project is feasible but that doesn't seem to be a priority for some reason. hmmmm. If it can't be explained, can it be made?

I'm currently working on a casual game with some people with a 60-page DD in place and even that can be a challenge. (I wouldn't mind help.) To take on a halo-like game by simply asking for help from the community without even having any budget usually means a bunch of eager people for the first month or 2 before reality sets in, people move on and the project ultimately dies.

#4 @Shiraz - I opted out of that course. I think I went on a month long drinking binge. . . Besides, if my programmer's read my mind and acted on my thoughts. . . [shudder], I don't even want to think about it.

#5 I'm totally with all of you on every point. I have nothing to add, except a side note: I hate it when you get people with these kind of ideas, and they decide to outsource the work. And how do they pay you? "Percentage of profit."

Those bug me to no end.

#6 The deference between hobbyist game designers, and professional game designers is: professional game designers write shit down!.

#7 I'll actually work for for a % of profit if I think the endeavour and the team are sound. But there better be contracts in place. Contracts, NDAs, Project plans and timelines; things that assure you that a project has been thought through and isn't just a "It would be so cool if we could build..." idea. The sad thing is these things are sometimes overlooked or ignored in "professional" gaming companies and Fredrik's post can not only apply to them but can bankrupt them. At least if you're just a bunch of guys with spare time all you'll lose is the spare time. :-)

#8 About 12 years ago, I would do 3D art for fun with trueSpace. As a wee teenager, I wanted to make games. A guy on CompuServe asked if I wanted to make art for him. So I sent him some animated GIFs of a couple characters I'd animated. He kept demanding the models over and over. I kept insisting I wanted to see the project and get some sort of commitment from him as to my reimbursement. He stopped emailing me. That's about as close as I've gotten to being asked to join a ridiculous project.

In general this Game Ideas forum is depressing, because it reminds me of me from years ago: dreaming of making the next big game, getting frustrated when it got beyond my scope, quitting and starting over, etc. I love the "well my programmer says 3 months" line some people use, especially when the poster is talking about a MMORPG or something. That to me just demonstrates a complete lack of comprehension of what goes into a big game.

For any people on here new to programming and / or game-programming, let me tell you, it is far harder than it sounds! I estimated 6 months for a simple 2D shooter game when I bought TGB last Spring. It's been about 8 months now, and I feel I've got at least another 4 to go. In other words, it's taking me twice as long to make a simple game --one that I prototyped in Flash in about a week. There are so many factors that go into a professional-quality game. It really pays to start small!

#9 Start small is the keyword, and it can really pay off!

Next week I'm doing a e-card game in flash for a client, I'm using 32 hours for design, animation and programming, for this I make 2800 euros :)

#10 This next statement is not a shot at GarageGames, i like the use of their product and the cost. But in my guess I'd say over 50% of their sales are to people who want to buy the product and pump out the next big hit in a few months, those people realise how hard it is get frustrated and probably don't touch the product again.
I have never made any computer game of any kind so my suggestion on how to keep those people motivated is a bit different. Instead of telling them to produce something they have no desire for (they will probably just quit even the simplest product if they don't like what the finish is supposed to be since they are a dead set in what they want type of person) but to start small in a different way.
Want to make an mmorpg, ok do it in a million babysteps (they will probably still give up after a month but this might help keep more going) Step one play with the tools for torque and make a simple map for the demo fps. Learn how to use the third person camera. Input the advancedcamera resource and learn how to use it. Input an NPC/vendor program and put the NPC in the world then to fastforward a little put in one monster and build your system from there, making the monster respawn, making your character gain exp from the kill. And just keep building on this mini game.
Then maybe those dreamers will have some enjoyment while realising how hard their goals are and can either realise this and go for something more realistic or continue with the mini steps andd have fun while learning.

#11 Arright, I see I'm not in a bad place as a beginner.

The project I'm working on isn't an MMO (although I've got an MMO idea so that the cool kids don't beat me up and take my milk money) and aside from the fact that my artistic ability is right at the "stick figure" level, the game idea I'm working on now is completely realistic for a small team, or even one person. I basically made a board game and am now "porting" it (lookit me use the big boy words!) over to TGE.

Hopefully, my game will be just fun enough and just hideous enough to net me some pity assistance from the community. If not, the fact that I finished a project should be evidence enough to assemble me a serious team for the future.

That's a hint. Don't make me design the greatest stick figure MMO ever misconceived to prove my resolve.

"SquiggleQuest: Doodles of Tomorrowmore"

#12 $100 for TGB is an easy way to find out you're not going to be making the next big MMO. Sure a lot of people crash and burn but you see this behavior in lots of places.

How many people here have or know someone who has:
1. bought expensive golf clubs before they really learned to play
2. exercise bike/treadmill/gym membership
3. clothes that are too small at the time they were purchased
4. A four wheel drive vehicle that doesn't leave the street.


And some of the people that do crash out of their first project do get back up and start again with a little more smarts.

Personally, I started small on TGE and even with the simplest game concept the artwork just overwhelmed me. Doing all the programming myself was ok but seemed to be only 25% of what needed to be done. Of course I wasn't good at the other 75% of it so that all took longer and in my man hours programming would have been under 10% of the project. Mercifully the video cards in both computers at home burned up in the same week and I couldn't afford to replace them at the time.

18 months later I can purchase TGB and I'd say the programming work on what I'm doing is about 50% of the effort in the programming/art division (I'm neglecting sounds until I have something working). The great thing about a 2D game is that my "programmer art" works well as a placeholder even if it's a rectangular sprite with the word "dog" on it. I'm producing a slightly different level every couple days now. When I finallly find an artist who isn't a flake I'll be able to show him how something plays and what needs to be there, he won't have to read my mind.

#13 Although I don't claim to be an expert on the average game making team, there is always more artists then programmers now a days isn't there? With how games have evolved everything is about the graphics, look at an fps (especially if your building off the starter fps so have a good engine behind you already) then you need to program in the different weapon damages rates of fire etc, if you have a refilling health or armor system put that in, and all the other small details. Now look at the art you need lots of different buildings and designs, normally many different characters all the weapons and all the items you pick up there's just a ton of art work to it.
So i don't think it's any surprise that you'd run into that Lance, If someone was going to say they wanted to work on video games and wanted to be good at one specific thing to make sure they could always have work I think I'd tell them to be a 3d modeller/texturer. That's why I'm almost surprised that there's been less content packs released I would think with a society like this (which brings in most of the people who either can program or dream of programming) that premade art that you can drop right in would be a big seller

I also think you don't have to have perfect art as an indie maker anyways, the type of crowd your going to get is going to be the ones looking for somethign very fun and addicting, not the ones who look for the next big mega hit title. For instance I downloaded that mini golf game that was just released by someone, and no the graphics weren't anything incredible (an interesting mix of 3d playable environment and a 2d cartoonish background which made for a very interesting look that I liked) they did the job and the game is very simple but very fun too. I just think people aim way too high for their first release and say ok it needs to have cutting edge 3d graphics massive particle explosions facial reactions etc etc instead of ok simple graphics simple game and let's go from there

I am also thinking of picking up tgb too for the reason of having a better chance of doing some of the artwork myself

#14 This is kind of of topic but not completly, I was thinking today and was wondering about the fact of if it's as difficult to make it as an indie producer as people say.
I'm not saying all this is the best way of looking at it but just a thought I had today.
There's something like 6.2 billion people in the world, and 330 million in america alone.
So let's say you personally make $10 per game sale (I don't think that's a tough goal if your doing a TGB game so a very small team can make one game)
so if your living where I am you need to make about $50000 before taxes to make it by ok (this is without a family) so that would mean you'd have to sell 5000 copies of that game in a year. Is that really so impossible to do? If your game is of good quality, doesn't have to be incredibly original just something simple but fun, wouldn't you be able to get to the 5000 mark out of all those people. Just for reference that would be about 1000th of 1 percent of the US population.
Now to top that off if someone was really focusing on being an indie developer, and were working with TGB, they could put out 2-3 games in one year.
Why are there so many horror stories of how impossible it is?

#15 Go back to the beginning of the post, J. People set bigger goals then they can actually achieve. You be surprised how often, even with smaller scope games people look at it during developement and say "and we can add this, and we can add that, this would be cool,..." scope goes out the window. development slows to a halt, especially if you're not paying anyone. Another partly finished game sits on someone's drive.

Hmmm, I wonder if I asked for all the partly finished games out there would I have enough to piece together a complete really cool game? :-)

#16 I think part of it is most projects aren't completed, as Shiraz notes. From personal experience, it's not as easy to sell as you might think. I did an expansion pack of sorts for a popular game years ago. I remember that its last free version easily got like 5000 downloads in its first weekend online alone. Thanks to this success, I figured I could pull off charging for its final version. This required a bit of extra work to make is as legally sound as possible, but I wanted to go for it. I sold a compact disc with the expansion plus a custom soundtrack for $12 plus $5 shipping. I ended up selling about... wait for it... 35 copies. This translated into a conversion rate of about 0.5%.

I admit there was quite a bit of negative backlash on the game's fan sites, since I was the only person to ever sell a mod for that game. (Everyone else released for free, though years later I think some others tried selling add-ons as well.) Plus, my site was pure flash and slow to load, a BIG mistake in the era before broadband was more common. But I don't think these things alone cost me a huge amount of sales.

My sales versus the cost of using Google ads broke even. I eventually boosted (ha!) my sales using eBay. I sold it for about 5 months or so, making it about 1 or 2 sales per week on average. Plus, my profit was terrible. I FedEx Ground shipped every copy but two, and the cost of shipping usually was over the flat $5 I charged. I owed the musician exactly $3 per disc, which was also a terrible deal. CDs, cases, labels, etc... I made about $6 a copy.... or something like $40 a month.

Anywho, I hope my first TGB venture does much better than my little game pack from the late 90s. But I won't be stunned if it does just as "well." :)

#17 I have big ideas for games but I know that I will have to take baby steps, but my plan is to develope casuel/small games that will atleast have parts of the features I want to implement in my larger pojects. That way I'm doing what I want or atleast part and this will hopefully help the development of larger projects.

I'm still in the whome however (learning programming) so I'm awhile away from taking my first baby steps.

#18 I'm a big fan of asset packs, at least for placeholders. Nature packs (and crate packs ;) are probably the ones
you can always get away with reusing, though ;)

If you buy/find license-free assets, it's all design and code from there. When you have a prototype,
start replacing whatever models and graphics don't work. Well, at least that's my plan for a handful of
simple games I'll try to finish over the next, say, infinite years :)