Game dev parallel universe
by Erik Deschamps · in General Discussion · 10/22/2006 (3:42 pm) · 33 replies
I'm not trying to dis programmers because I know they work hard, but what if....
it WAS possible to buy things like Renderware, Unreal, Maya.... for the cost of Torque Indie.
What would the game industry be like? (Use your imaginations.)
My theory is: for one, there would be more games made a year due to more people involved in the industry. And two, because of more, maybe "causual" developers the games would look like mods of existing games [like companies don't do that already =( ] , except for more power at their fingertips to redo GUI's and core concepts, and more risk taking because there wouldn't be some executive breathing down their necks.
P.S.
What do you all think of the dev team that did the newer Legacy of Kain games being fired from their contract work with Blizzard Entertainment? (It was Starcraft Ghost.)
I personally laughed for like two days, because you have to remember they don't just get fired, there ARE warnings before hand. I'm glad to see one of those bloated companies finnaly eat their own BS: "Don't worry, we're all trained professionals, here. Just you wait, we'll have that dang'ole Starcraft Ghost look'in real perdy for ya!"
*rolls eyes*
it WAS possible to buy things like Renderware, Unreal, Maya.... for the cost of Torque Indie.
What would the game industry be like? (Use your imaginations.)
My theory is: for one, there would be more games made a year due to more people involved in the industry. And two, because of more, maybe "causual" developers the games would look like mods of existing games [like companies don't do that already =( ] , except for more power at their fingertips to redo GUI's and core concepts, and more risk taking because there wouldn't be some executive breathing down their necks.
P.S.
What do you all think of the dev team that did the newer Legacy of Kain games being fired from their contract work with Blizzard Entertainment? (It was Starcraft Ghost.)
I personally laughed for like two days, because you have to remember they don't just get fired, there ARE warnings before hand. I'm glad to see one of those bloated companies finnaly eat their own BS: "Don't worry, we're all trained professionals, here. Just you wait, we'll have that dang'ole Starcraft Ghost look'in real perdy for ya!"
*rolls eyes*
#22
lol - you're right, this is hilarious :)
10/25/2006 (6:20 pm)
Sorry Erik, were you saying something?lol - you're right, this is hilarious :)
#23
Just a reminder of what those insults were:
2) jplus never actually said using "Pro" tools detracted from hard work, you just took this quote
and turned it into
Do you see now? Or are you just going to change my entire post into a cut 'n paste confetti club where you can just take random extracts and put unrelated rants toward them to insult me? You know, being petty? Because so far you've made large hills out of molemounds over eveything and nothing trying to prove your superiority.
You know what, you're right in that your point did die in your first post, as you started trolling in the second.
10/25/2006 (8:20 pm)
I think Ted summed up best what everybodies been trying to say in his earlier post:Quote:The fact is that you could have stated your case in a much better way. And if you did that and actually engaged in true debate with people without becoming insulting to them, then you might find that people do not disagree with you as much as you think.
Just a reminder of what those insults were:
Quote:...But I guess on a forum you can't see the empty beer cans beside the person who's typing...1) You know, just because somebody doesn't agree on your viewpoint, it doesn't mean you automatically get the right to act like an asshole. Well, on "Other Forums" without your illuminati postcount heirarchy it probably does, but not over here.
...Rotf. Doesn't even read the whole post, no wonder he doesn't understand. "Hmm, don't understand...better play it safe and say its disturbing."...
...That is one of the divine concepts of artists. Just keep on trucking and ignore people who disagree, its the only way to fly...
...Another rotf... a thing of the past. Yes, raising game design to the level of the classical arts would just kill it, I know.... Like how making affordable cameras in the early 20th century just KILLED the photagraphy industry.... oh---my---god...
...Professional is tacked onto a job where people say: "Wow, you actually managed to live off of doing that?" and in all actuality refers to someone who has made an artform out of doing the least amount of work for the most amount of pay, while an amature is a perfectionist. Example: paleontology. It may not be all over the media these days but back in the 90's when it was, almost all major discoveries were made by: you guessed it, amateurs! THEN the big stupid 'professional' paleontologists came in and said: "Don't worry, we'll take it from here you stupid little man."...
...I think someone is watering their panties at the thought of some virtual unknown from a village in south america or something...
...Seriously, are you people real indivduals or are all of you just one person payed to spread propaganda over the net like so many other industries. And why do you worship teachers? Don't you know it's an insult to humanity to say they are nessesary for our exisitence? And quit trying to use the old "I'm a professional" guilt complex on me, and anyone else who thinks its wrong to wrap themselves around their job title...
...Jeez, you really are a made up alias, aren't you? Either that you like to follow the leader off the cliff...
...Indeed, I wasn't aware disagreeing with this forum's "fearless leaders" of uber high post count lead to stale rhetoric being thrown around like confetti. I don't see other forums doing this. It must be the cathode ray tan...
...You are all quite pathetic, in that you ignore every other sentence I type and make up the rest: the very definition of ignorance, to ignore...
...No where else in my wanderings of planet earth have led me to a place where people get confused this easily, or mad...
2) jplus never actually said using "Pro" tools detracted from hard work, you just took this quote
Quote:The problem is that making games is hard, and a lot of people try to avoid doing hard work for little to no pay.
and turned it into
Quote:Professional tools take away the hard work and have a big red button, so they are lazier and people are paid more for less work.
Do you see now? Or are you just going to change my entire post into a cut 'n paste confetti club where you can just take random extracts and put unrelated rants toward them to insult me? You know, being petty? Because so far you've made large hills out of molemounds over eveything and nothing trying to prove your superiority.
You know what, you're right in that your point did die in your first post, as you started trolling in the second.
#24
No I don't have anything relevant to say, because there is nothing here worth saying anything about.
10/25/2006 (8:28 pm)
Man this is just like... the weirdest guy I've ever seen show up here. He's not blatantly dumb or an arse like most other people that show up to make problems. Yet still clueless all the same. Amusing.No I don't have anything relevant to say, because there is nothing here worth saying anything about.
#25
@ Mincetro:
I can't help it if you people are insulted at a drop of the hat or over disagreeing.
It's not asshole, its passion. I never swore until just now. =)
You mean there's other forums where postcount matters? And whats illuminati got to do with it?
I give you a perfectly good confetti joke and this is what you do with it?!!
I'm not out to prove superiority unless saying "I don't need anyone's help counts as that."
What a commie, would rather not let the thread maker post a response.
10/25/2006 (9:35 pm)
From a quick scan of forum posts I see that sadly this is one of the most active threads. Also, any thread about some disagreement or deviation has the most posts. A disturbing trend... Based on this case history I'll point out that alot of you have been acting like "me" since before I was ever here. @ Mincetro:
I can't help it if you people are insulted at a drop of the hat or over disagreeing.
Quote:Just a reminder of what those insults were:Flattery will get you nowhere.
Quote:1) You know, just because somebody doesn't agree on your viewpoint, it doesn't mean you automatically get the right to act like an asshole. Well, on "Other Forums" without your illuminati postcount heirarchy it probably does, but not over here.
It's not asshole, its passion. I never swore until just now. =)
You mean there's other forums where postcount matters? And whats illuminati got to do with it?
Quote:Do you see now? Or are you just going to change my entire post into a cut 'n paste confetti club where you can just take random extracts and put unrelated rants toward them to insult me? You know, being petty? Because so far you've made large hills out of molemounds over eveything and nothing trying to prove your superiority.
You know what, you're right in that your point did die in your first post, as you started trolling in the second.
I give you a perfectly good confetti joke and this is what you do with it?!!
I'm not out to prove superiority unless saying "I don't need anyone's help counts as that."
What a commie, would rather not let the thread maker post a response.
#26
That's usually the case with trolling.
10/26/2006 (3:06 am)
Quote:From a quick scan of forum posts I see that sadly this is one of the most active threads. Also, any thread about some disagreement or deviation has the most posts. A disturbing trend...
That's usually the case with trolling.
#27
Well, before my morning coffee it sounded funny :)
Has anyone written a "Troll Bot"? Seems like an interesting idea and there's plenty of research to be had in this post.
Input this into "Troll-Bot":
And get this to post:
OKay, okay! I'll go have a coffee. Obviously this isn't funny to everyone :)
... I'm sure there's a game in this... If anyone figures out what it is, I'd say given how these threads grow, it will be the most addictive game since the Sims or Tetris... or something :)
Off to play with 1.5
*spelling
10/26/2006 (3:58 am)
I'd post here just to get him coming back. I guess I'm "Trawling for Trolls"... Well, before my morning coffee it sounded funny :)
Has anyone written a "Troll Bot"? Seems like an interesting idea and there's plenty of research to be had in this post.
Input this into "Troll-Bot":
Quote:Now that's a little unkind. I mean, I gave this thread some thought before posting in an effort to provoke thought and discussion. And now it appears you're not interest in my thoughts on a topic I started.
And get this to post:
Quote:What a commie, would rather not let the thread maker post a response.
OKay, okay! I'll go have a coffee. Obviously this isn't funny to everyone :)
... I'm sure there's a game in this... If anyone figures out what it is, I'd say given how these threads grow, it will be the most addictive game since the Sims or Tetris... or something :)
Off to play with 1.5
*spelling
#28
I think that's how they play it in real life too ;)
10/26/2006 (5:30 am)
@James: I think a Diner Dash styled Troll Trawling game would work. The player could be a Troll who has to go to different forums and keep the other users inflamed long enough for the thread to be locked out by the admin, or else the flaming will die down and the users will go away, making the thread die and the Troll lose points.I think that's how they play it in real life too ;)
#29
My friends made a game called "Flame Wars" for their final project in school. You controlled a virtual "fire man" who had to move across a grid of burning buildings. Once you got to a building and hit the action button, a series of random arrows and buttons would pop up (DDR kind of series). If you got the sequence right, the flames would die off, otherwise the flames would grow higher.
I think "Troll Trawling" would be the perfect sequel. Who's with me? We start development tomorrow!
10/26/2006 (5:46 am)
Finally, someone said something that attracted me to post. My friends made a game called "Flame Wars" for their final project in school. You controlled a virtual "fire man" who had to move across a grid of burning buildings. Once you got to a building and hit the action button, a series of random arrows and buttons would pop up (DDR kind of series). If you got the sequence right, the flames would die off, otherwise the flames would grow higher.
I think "Troll Trawling" would be the perfect sequel. Who's with me? We start development tomorrow!
#30
There's a very good reason that the people on this forum aren't too excited about your rants and excuses as to why you can't make your dream game. It's because they are way too busy making their own dream games, even though they have no better resources than you do. They are making it happen. You are making excuses.
There's nothing stopping you, dude. You rail against the practices of higher-budget studios, but then use the fact that they don't use open-source tools as proof that the open-source tools are no good.
Here's a news flash: If most of the 3D modelers out there were experienced using Blender, much of the industry would use Blender. They use what their employees know how to use. But the higher-budget tools out there USE their profits to market their product and offer free / cheap training to prospective users, so that they can KEEP dominating the market. Blender, which is free, doesn't have that advantage.
But you can read arguments that go on all day about pros and cons of something like Blender or The Gimp over, say, Maya and Photoshop. Sure - I'd be happy to accept that the premium tools may make you more productive. But how much more productive? Would you be able to build a 3D model for your game TEN TIMES faster in Maya than in Blender, assuming equal skill in each? No way. Not even twice as fast. We're talking marginal differences in productivity, here.
The only thing stopping you is yourself. You need to develop your own skills and talents. And that unfortunately, takes time and hard work. But if you are willing to invest that, to make your game instead of making excuses, you can kick butt like there's no tomorrow.
Making good games is hard work, and there's no tool that can change that. But you sound like you have the passion and the energy. You just have to convert that to drive and discipline. I wish you the best of luck!
10/26/2006 (8:41 am)
Eric:There's a very good reason that the people on this forum aren't too excited about your rants and excuses as to why you can't make your dream game. It's because they are way too busy making their own dream games, even though they have no better resources than you do. They are making it happen. You are making excuses.
There's nothing stopping you, dude. You rail against the practices of higher-budget studios, but then use the fact that they don't use open-source tools as proof that the open-source tools are no good.
Here's a news flash: If most of the 3D modelers out there were experienced using Blender, much of the industry would use Blender. They use what their employees know how to use. But the higher-budget tools out there USE their profits to market their product and offer free / cheap training to prospective users, so that they can KEEP dominating the market. Blender, which is free, doesn't have that advantage.
But you can read arguments that go on all day about pros and cons of something like Blender or The Gimp over, say, Maya and Photoshop. Sure - I'd be happy to accept that the premium tools may make you more productive. But how much more productive? Would you be able to build a 3D model for your game TEN TIMES faster in Maya than in Blender, assuming equal skill in each? No way. Not even twice as fast. We're talking marginal differences in productivity, here.
The only thing stopping you is yourself. You need to develop your own skills and talents. And that unfortunately, takes time and hard work. But if you are willing to invest that, to make your game instead of making excuses, you can kick butt like there's no tomorrow.
Making good games is hard work, and there's no tool that can change that. But you sound like you have the passion and the energy. You just have to convert that to drive and discipline. I wish you the best of luck!
#31
Since you interpreted this in the completely wrong way I'll explain what was meant by it. What J meant was the fact that the game industry is not the crazy high paying gig most people believe it to be. Most times you can make more money in the standard areas of software development.
The hours are also a factor. When you put in 80 - 90, even 100, hour work weeks and still make less than guys who put in 40 hours in those standard areas it can be a little disheartening. I think J simply meant there aren't a lot of people in the world willing to do more for less.
As to the myth that more expensive tools equals easier/quicker dev time. Well, that's what that is, a myth. I once used a $10k dev tool, every setback I had was due to inexperience with the tool. Regardless of the fact that there is a low cost, if not free, solution to every high priced tool, it doesn't change the fact that every tool has a learning curve. In my experience, the more expensive the tool means it's likely more complex, which means it's learning curve runs the chance of being higher as well. It's all about choosing the right tool for the job and investing in it so that you become proficient with it and it does speed up dev time.
10/26/2006 (9:35 am)
@ErikQuote:
What does "a lot of people try to avoid doing hard work for little to no pay" even mean?
Since you interpreted this in the completely wrong way I'll explain what was meant by it. What J meant was the fact that the game industry is not the crazy high paying gig most people believe it to be. Most times you can make more money in the standard areas of software development.
The hours are also a factor. When you put in 80 - 90, even 100, hour work weeks and still make less than guys who put in 40 hours in those standard areas it can be a little disheartening. I think J simply meant there aren't a lot of people in the world willing to do more for less.
As to the myth that more expensive tools equals easier/quicker dev time. Well, that's what that is, a myth. I once used a $10k dev tool, every setback I had was due to inexperience with the tool. Regardless of the fact that there is a low cost, if not free, solution to every high priced tool, it doesn't change the fact that every tool has a learning curve. In my experience, the more expensive the tool means it's likely more complex, which means it's learning curve runs the chance of being higher as well. It's all about choosing the right tool for the job and investing in it so that you become proficient with it and it does speed up dev time.
#32
I am right now, have been for a few years. That's why I didn't post for over a day this time. You know I love ya guys too much and wouldn't miss this... And you all post WAY more than me across other threads, ect. =)
They even get turned on by my ASCII.
I thought they used in-house tools, which is what Blender was, was it not?
Right now I use this thing. And I REALLY miss even the 2 or 3 features that Gimp has over it, but I DO praise the guy for making it or I would have nothing right now.
Maybe 3D modeling, but compare (can't find active sites of the older versions I have) this thing which went for over $100 to a $50 version of this thing. Its like night and day. The cheaper one had me baffled over why it was so buggy and cluttered-looking for something that basically only simulated an analog tape reel. I mean there was actually college courses on using it, a digital version of a cassette recorder with close to 200 buttons on the interface, for what no one is sure. (Yes I knew how to use it, and I kicked myself for wasting time with it.) (And don't even get me started on this piece of garbage. Seven years later and it looks exactly the same except now they're trying to convince everyone its for something other than techno, techno, techno, and techno.) As opposed to the more expensive one, who's plush interface I had mastered in about 5 minutes and never looked back.
@ Scott Burns
I'm not disagreeing that all artists starve at least a little.
Even I will admit that 10 grand or more is just price gouging on big companies that can afford it.
10/26/2006 (9:00 pm)
Quote:There's a very good reason that the people on this forum aren't too excited about your rants and excuses as to why you can't make your dream game. It's because they are way too busy making their own dream games, even though they have no better resources than you do. They are making it happen. You are making excuses.
I am right now, have been for a few years. That's why I didn't post for over a day this time. You know I love ya guys too much and wouldn't miss this... And you all post WAY more than me across other threads, ect. =)
Quote:... I'm sure there's a game in this... If anyone figures out what it is, I'd say given how these threads grow, it will be the most addictive game since the Sims or Tetris... or something :)
They even get turned on by my ASCII.
Quote:If most of the 3D modelers out there were experienced using Blender, much of the industry would use Blender.
I thought they used in-house tools, which is what Blender was, was it not?
Quote:But you can read arguments that go on all day about pros and cons of something like Blender or The Gimp over, say, Maya and Photoshop. Sure - I'd be happy to accept that the premium tools may make you more productive. But how much more productive? Would you be able to build a 3D model for your game TEN TIMES faster in Maya than in Blender, assuming equal skill in each? No way. Not even twice as fast. We're talking marginal differences in productivity, here.
Right now I use this thing. And I REALLY miss even the 2 or 3 features that Gimp has over it, but I DO praise the guy for making it or I would have nothing right now.
Maybe 3D modeling, but compare (can't find active sites of the older versions I have) this thing which went for over $100 to a $50 version of this thing. Its like night and day. The cheaper one had me baffled over why it was so buggy and cluttered-looking for something that basically only simulated an analog tape reel. I mean there was actually college courses on using it, a digital version of a cassette recorder with close to 200 buttons on the interface, for what no one is sure. (Yes I knew how to use it, and I kicked myself for wasting time with it.) (And don't even get me started on this piece of garbage. Seven years later and it looks exactly the same except now they're trying to convince everyone its for something other than techno, techno, techno, and techno.) As opposed to the more expensive one, who's plush interface I had mastered in about 5 minutes and never looked back.
@ Scott Burns
I'm not disagreeing that all artists starve at least a little.
Even I will admit that 10 grand or more is just price gouging on big companies that can afford it.
#33
Blender is a free, open-source tool. Most dev houses use Max, Maya, and XSI, with a smattering of other small software (some do use Blender or trueSpace, for the smaller houses, etc).
An in-house tool would be something like what Pixar uses for it's artists, for which they have in-houses scientists and coders for algorithms and tool making, which later translates into the next versions of their Renderman renderer. I don't know if they make the tools available, but I know they use a lot of proprietary stuff. For games, a lot of the in-house tools are basically under the category of level editors and such, for artists to get assets in-game with as little technical fumbling as they can manage.
10/27/2006 (6:13 am)
Quote:I thought they used in-house tools, which is what Blender was, was it not?
Blender is a free, open-source tool. Most dev houses use Max, Maya, and XSI, with a smattering of other small software (some do use Blender or trueSpace, for the smaller houses, etc).
An in-house tool would be something like what Pixar uses for it's artists, for which they have in-houses scientists and coders for algorithms and tool making, which later translates into the next versions of their Renderman renderer. I don't know if they make the tools available, but I know they use a lot of proprietary stuff. For games, a lot of the in-house tools are basically under the category of level editors and such, for artists to get assets in-game with as little technical fumbling as they can manage.
Torque Owner Erik Deschamps
Here's a buck:
Its not my website and I didn't have anything to do with it. =)
I'm just a fan of their ways for some time now. It's a fairly old and respected website and I can see now why people reply with strange, out of the blue posts. You're all blind with rage over what I have to say. Why? Not too sure, really. I'm just some guy with some more constitution than most that isn't particularly affected by tounge lashings of any kind...
Infact, if you investigate (anything at all, ever), the people who did make the website have some credentials and the people who appear with anonymous-sounding names are a little worried their bosses may find out of their complaints, ect.
I'm not trying to convince anyone, every single person here is trying to convince me, while dodging what I have to say. It's a bad mix...
My point died in the initial post. Whoosh, over the heads it went and down the hill...
I don't know what to say. No where else in my wanderings of planet earth have led me to a place where people get confused this easily, or mad.