Is TGE 1.5 really worth it?
by Hokuto · in Torque Game Engine · 09/27/2006 (2:11 pm) · 15 replies
As I said before the 1.5 content/offer sounds good...
but there is a question I wanted to ask
As you say, after "5 years of development", considering it is now the year 2006 and the average or even low end pc user is running a graphic card better than an ultra old Ge-Force 3 (now we are on Ge-Force series 7 for the most up to date users) isn't it time to add DX 9 features to TGE? like shaders for example?
If not... how long do you think you can keep selling TGE for? I mean, I wouldn't start developing a new game on an engine today that looks 2002-ish. By the time my games comes out it would look really rough
If not... stop TGE to 1.5 as it is.. and move TGE development resources on TSE and get TSE sorted?
I know you are no going to do what I say... but I think TGE is getting on a bit now... with or without lighting kit :) (and still without compatibiliy with the most useful 3D file formats... after 5 years!)
but there is a question I wanted to ask
As you say, after "5 years of development", considering it is now the year 2006 and the average or even low end pc user is running a graphic card better than an ultra old Ge-Force 3 (now we are on Ge-Force series 7 for the most up to date users) isn't it time to add DX 9 features to TGE? like shaders for example?
If not... how long do you think you can keep selling TGE for? I mean, I wouldn't start developing a new game on an engine today that looks 2002-ish. By the time my games comes out it would look really rough
If not... stop TGE to 1.5 as it is.. and move TGE development resources on TSE and get TSE sorted?
I know you are no going to do what I say... but I think TGE is getting on a bit now... with or without lighting kit :) (and still without compatibiliy with the most useful 3D file formats... after 5 years!)
#2
09/27/2006 (2:30 pm)
Michael is right. You'd be surprised how many people are still using pre-GF3 hardware. Sure, the typical gamers that are playing the "latest and greatest" are running on newer hardware but if that's your target market TGE probably isn't right for you anyway. Suggesting that support for TGE be dropped after 1.5 means you're missing the point of TGE in the first place. TGE is meant to support older (but still widespread) hardware while TSE exists to satisfy the need for cutting-edge tech.
#3
About the TSE thing - it costs less than 40 dollars to get a card that can run TSE, if you own a card too old, its sure as hell time to upgrde.
09/27/2006 (2:36 pm)
Yes. TGE 1.5 is worth it.About the TSE thing - it costs less than 40 dollars to get a card that can run TSE, if you own a card too old, its sure as hell time to upgrde.
#4
I too think TGE 1.5 will be worth the upgrade.
09/27/2006 (2:44 pm)
Ishbu, its not like you just switch card and then be done with it. You will probably have to switch other parts for it to work out in a older computer.I too think TGE 1.5 will be worth the upgrade.
#5
09/27/2006 (2:59 pm)
At any rate, TGE is great for prototyping and R&D.
#6
09/27/2006 (3:43 pm)
If you are designing a game that will have a multi national release, you will want to go with TGE over TSE. I for example am making a game that I will release in Japan. The average computer in Japan and the US will not support TSE. 
#7
Go to a local department store (like Wal-mart) and see what computer systems are selling have in them. Now go back 2 - 5 years from that and that is where at least 50% (the number could be higher) of computers are running at. The numbers of people still using 56k modems, 16 - 32 meg graphic cards,windows 98 is huge. So, I think TGE has several years of use still left in it.
Can someone explain to me why people keep saying that TGE is out dated? How can someone justify that it is out dated. I really do not understand. Is it because of the graphics? The updates to the engine? Please explain.
09/27/2006 (5:20 pm)
I have to agree with this statement:Quote:You'd be surprised how many people are still using pre-GF3 hardware.
Go to a local department store (like Wal-mart) and see what computer systems are selling have in them. Now go back 2 - 5 years from that and that is where at least 50% (the number could be higher) of computers are running at. The numbers of people still using 56k modems, 16 - 32 meg graphic cards,windows 98 is huge. So, I think TGE has several years of use still left in it.
Can someone explain to me why people keep saying that TGE is out dated? How can someone justify that it is out dated. I really do not understand. Is it because of the graphics? The updates to the engine? Please explain.
#8
09/27/2006 (5:33 pm)
The graphics aren't dated, it just doesn't support shiny out-of-the-box :P 
#9
Although TGE is a very capable platform, the technology isn't much improved over engines 5-8 years old. IMO, when Tribes 2 released in 2001, the engine was already outdated in many ways. For example, TGE interiors are barely on par with Quake 2 (and I'm being generous here -- it still lacks functionality for doors, trains, and elevators...), which was released in 1997.
So, is TGE out-dated? Definitely! Can you make cool games with it? Absolutely! And I think with good art direction, you can still make great looking games, sans shaders. And the bonus is: You're practically guaranteed good frame rates -- even on budget-level accelerators. (Like Intel's crap...)
09/27/2006 (6:13 pm)
@Mark: It's simple... "outdated" == Old, old rendering technology. I.e. no shader support, among other things. And we're not just talking hardware shaders -- Quake 3 was released in 1999 with shader support! Although a software-only solution, it's quite powerful and flexible, and, perhaps more importantly, easy to use. On the other hand, TGE barely even has materials support. ( Incidentally, I would love to have a Quake 3 -like shader system in TGE, if for only one reason -- true volumetric fog. )Although TGE is a very capable platform, the technology isn't much improved over engines 5-8 years old. IMO, when Tribes 2 released in 2001, the engine was already outdated in many ways. For example, TGE interiors are barely on par with Quake 2 (and I'm being generous here -- it still lacks functionality for doors, trains, and elevators...), which was released in 1997.
So, is TGE out-dated? Definitely! Can you make cool games with it? Absolutely! And I think with good art direction, you can still make great looking games, sans shaders. And the bonus is: You're practically guaranteed good frame rates -- even on budget-level accelerators. (Like Intel's crap...)
#10
Market data proves you wrong. GeForce 3 is still faster than the average internet surfer out there.
Perhaps because it's not designed for HT&L. Perhaps because it still uses light mapping, instead of "real" lights. Perhaps because it has no real shadowing support (stencil or depth shadow buffers). Perhaps because it doesn't have any specular solution to speak of. Perhaps because it doesn't do reflective water. Perhaps because it lets each object bang the rendering device (which makes it really hard to globally re-factor rendering). I'm sure there's other things that you'll find in "the real world" as it were.
I hear TSE is apparently less outdated (but I don't think it gets a 100% on the above ratings).
09/27/2006 (7:43 pm)
Quote:the average or even low end pc user is running a graphic card better than an ultra old Ge-Force 3
Market data proves you wrong. GeForce 3 is still faster than the average internet surfer out there.
Quote:why people keep saying that TGE is out dated?
Perhaps because it's not designed for HT&L. Perhaps because it still uses light mapping, instead of "real" lights. Perhaps because it has no real shadowing support (stencil or depth shadow buffers). Perhaps because it doesn't have any specular solution to speak of. Perhaps because it doesn't do reflective water. Perhaps because it lets each object bang the rendering device (which makes it really hard to globally re-factor rendering). I'm sure there's other things that you'll find in "the real world" as it were.
I hear TSE is apparently less outdated (but I don't think it gets a 100% on the above ratings).
#11
1. The lower a game's system requirements are, the larger its potential audience is.
2. Gameplay doesn't become outdated.
09/27/2006 (8:11 pm)
Two points:-1. The lower a game's system requirements are, the larger its potential audience is.
2. Gameplay doesn't become outdated.
#12
09/27/2006 (8:12 pm)
Yes, TGE *is* outdated and I do not buy the idea that "most" people's hardware won't run TSE. However, TGE runs on Linux. This is the biggest factor for me. TSE is not and will not be an option for me until it runs on Linux.
#13
09/27/2006 (9:50 pm)
None of my friends are hardcore gamers. All of them are typical casual gamers. None of them can run TSE. I think we tend to think everyone has as good as a rig as us. The reality is it isn't the case.
#14
If by "most" people you mean the people who have installed Steam, and have bought Half-Life 2, then you're probably right.
If by "most" people you mean the average hitter on a site like, say, yahoo.com, or even popcapgames.com, then you're probably not right.
If you're making a game for the Steam generation, there's no reason not to use TSE (or, for that matter, C4, or maybe even Source).
09/27/2006 (10:03 pm)
Quote:I do not buy the idea that "most" people's hardware won't run TSE.
If by "most" people you mean the people who have installed Steam, and have bought Half-Life 2, then you're probably right.
If by "most" people you mean the average hitter on a site like, say, yahoo.com, or even popcapgames.com, then you're probably not right.
If you're making a game for the Steam generation, there's no reason not to use TSE (or, for that matter, C4, or maybe even Source).
#15
My brother still runs a GeForce 2.
09/28/2006 (6:20 am)
Quote:
the average or even low end pc user is running a graphic card better than an ultra old Ge-Force 3
My brother still runs a GeForce 2.
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