Torque/1.5/WhatsNew

#161

Quote:
Skinned mesh performance is bad? So put your graphics programmer on it for a couple of weeks like we did.

Erhm.. The point was that if a feature like this is severely crippled, some types of games can no longer be made with stock TSE. Like a FPS (which Torque is geared at) without animations. So saying that 'TSE MS 2 can be used to make games' is very subjective, and oversimplifying something rather complex.

But that quote is spot on of what I was talking about in my last post:

If something's missing, go add it! Everyone can do it. This is assuming:

* Everyone can program.
* Everyone has the same knowledge as the skilled Brian Ramage.
* Everyone has been working with this engine in his day job and is employed at the company where it is developed at.
* Everyone wants to make tech, not games.

#162 Anton, dude, your previous example of the builder is off. You're mistaking the services industry for the product creation industry. When you pay people for a service, you expect it to be done within a deadline, like the builder example. You've contracted them to finish building within a schedule. The schedule is part of the contract, and you're entitled to be pissed off if they miss it.You didn't hire GG on a contractual programming basis. You payed for access to CVS. GG shared what they had of TSE so people could play with it, but they plainly warned that it wasn't finished. And despite that EA release, with the big warning labels slapped on it everywhere, they are making a product, not performing a service. If Nike say they are releasing a new type of shoe in August and they don't, you know what happens? Nothing. Likewise, you don't get to complain if LG pushes back the release of its latest big screen TV. The customers don't get to rampage in anger. Its not a service. Its developing a product. You haven't hired a coder to work for you, and he's missed a deadline. You've bought the rights to have a sneak peak at the product they're working on, and to get a copy once its done. A correct example would be Sony letting people have a sneak peak at their next plasma screen TV while its being developed in the lab, for a price, and then those people complaining because the picture flickers, and they want to watch the soccer match this weekend on it, and why hasn't Sony fixed this already, grrrrr!!!!

You knew they promised nothing, release date wise. If you've set critical business deadlines against that, my apologies, but it wasn't the wisest move. I mean, you took the EA license at MS 1 of 4 did you say? So it was 25% complete, yet people are surprised to find the code was buggy and missing features? Come on, they plainly stated they were totally tearing out and replacing the rendering core, who here was blind enough to think that wouldn't have an impact on anything rendered, such as waterblocks, decals, particles, etc? If the renderer was incomplete/buggy....that means those things would probably be too! This shouldn't have been a surprise to anyone. Skinned Meshes not performing optimally? When the engine is/was 25/50/75 percent done? Colour me completely surprised!

It doesn't say in the TSE licence that you can make a game "as is" Stefan. It says you need skilled programmers who can handle working in an incomplete, changing engine, you can do it : " TSE is not yet as stable a game development platform as the TGE, but it is already being used to produce several professional games. Experienced developers familiar with working on changing technology can get a jump on working with this new technology. As long as you are aware of these conditions, jump right in and have fun! "


People are frustrated because their unrealistic hopes have been dashed against reality, hard.


And you're so utterly wrong about Constructor. I'd love an EA license, I'd fork over cash this very second for it. Just as I'd love to be a beta tester. Buggy or not, incomplete or not. I'm a pre-release user of the Arcane-FX spell system. I knew and understood, going in, that it was incomplete, that there were bugs. I'm loving it. Do I know when it will be released? No. I'd be really dissapointed if it wasn't released by the time I wanted to publish my game, and would ask Jeff Faust if I could just use it as is (As Minions of Mirth does), but if I couldn't, I'd tear it out and use something else. I wouldn't throw a temper tantrum. Because I understood, going in, that I wasn't getting any guarantees, and I don't bank on it.


Hostile environment? What are you talking about? This place is rocking. I never get anything but niceness from the people here. Hell, the GG crew invited me to come over for coffee when I head to Eugene shortly, me, just customer number XXXX from a completely different continent. I LOVE how friendly and personal this community is. And I love the fact that GG is so close to their community.


Bad attitudes are responsible for lack of games? I sincerely doubt it People who quit making their game because someone was sarky to them on some forum don't have what it takes to finish anyway, if they quit that easily.


To GG, like others have said, please, don't take this stuff as "how the community feels". It isn't. I and others think you're doing a great job. Not because I'm some sort of unthinking fanboi, but because I can weigh up pros and cons on my own, and have come to the conclusion that GG rocks hard.

#163 Jackass comments removed by Anton Bursch

#164 I never said that everyone can add every feature they want for their game. I never stated that everyone can program. I never implied that that everyone has the same knowledge as the skilled Brian Ramage.

Quite the opposite in fact:

Quote:
If the cost is too high (months and months of research and development) and it is a key piece for your game then you either need to look into doing a different game or you need to look at ways of reducing the cost (outsourcing to someone more knowledgable for example...which is what Thomas Lund did for his boat game).

Truth be told I know I am no where nearly as strong a graphics programmer as Brian. That is why when I have a question about graphics programming I go to him. If I have a question about Atlas or Unicode I go to Ben Garney. If I have a question about the RTS Starter Kit I go to Stephen Zepp. If I have a question about the Gui system I head over to Justin DuJardin and the TGB team. I think you get the picture.

A large part of being successful in this world is recognizing your own weaknesses, recognizing strengths in others, and being humble enough to ask for help.

If you can't make your game with the current features then you realistically have 4 options:

1) Change your game
2) Fix it yourself
3) Find someone else to fix it for you
4) Wait for someone (GG or the community) to fix it for you

If the cost of #4 is too high (waiting a couple of years to finish your game for example) then you need to explore the other 3 options and weigh their costs and see which one is best for your team.

Torque (in all its forms) will *never* be the end-all solution to game development. There will *always* be something beyond "stock" Torque that you will need for your game whether it is faster graphics performance or just that you need the player to be able to be able to have custom logos on his helmet. When you bump into the next "missing feature" you are going to be faced with the same 4 choices.

Perhaps you should look at this a bit from GG's perspective. We could have kept our mouths shut and never let anyone even know that TSE existed until it was done. In the meantime we would have watched people in the community flounder around adding shaders to TGE in ways that we would not have been able to support and in ways that wouldn't be useful to everyone (the CG resource still has major issues on ATI cards). We would have also lost out on the extraordinary opportunities to put games on the Xbox, Xbox 360. Both our games and those of other teams (like 21-6 and BraveTree). Instead we opened up TSE's development so that anyone could join in and everyone could take advantage of the code in whatever form it is in while making it perfectly clear on the product page and in our community interaction that TSE is an evolving codebase full of bugs and incomplete features that have to be taken "as-is". This "public" development of TSE has been very painful for us in terms of community opinion but I still believe that it has been far more benificial for everyone in the long run.

#165 While I agree with you Matt on the fact that more games would get done if they could get a larger concentration of people working together, it just isn't very easy to do unless everyone is a paid employee, and that usually isn't the case.

The last two projects I have worked on: Age of Muskets and Illumina. Age of Muskets I was the only programmer. I had the client more or less feature complete in six months, there are tweaks that need to be done when the graphics catch up to the code (new player animations, weapon animations, boat tweaks), but the code is more or less done. There has been a paid artist on that project the entire time. The amount of artwork that still needs to be done though is pretty large. Now that project has been holding map contests, recruiting people, etc for about 9 months now. There have been many people who came in and worked on that project, and most of them came and went. There was a team of three people (designer/sound, programmer, and artist) at all times, as well as three or four others who were lingering around working on props or maps, etc but never were full time people.This is a project that was an extension of a mod for Unreal that was a runner up in the make it unreal contest. They had a team in place already but that team had no experience with Torque. I think the design document for the game is solid, the game itself is solid, but at the point where I wrapped up my work there, about 3 months ago we had a functional game, that had functional models and weapons, but needed a lot of graphics still. I'll go back on it and finish it up when the graphics catch up, but that could be some time. I think the designer of that game has done a lot to try to get that game finished. He has spent money, and put in a lot of time. He also put together one of the most complete design documents I've seen in an indie game. But it's hard for him to keep a team of people together and working on the project.

My most recent work has been on Illumina. Illumina has had a ton of people working on it over the years. But in the past three months it's mainly been two people. It's a product that is pretty far developed already, but its a project that has struggled to get the help for the pieces that it needs to finish.

So that's my two most recent projects. Neither of them are my own idea. I'm more than happy to work with others on their games, it doesn't need to be my own project. But it's not that simple. It's hard to find people to work on a project, and when you do, it's even harder to keep them working on a project, unless they are being paid a salary... which many indie games don't have the budget to do, or can only do sparingly. Yes, I agree that people want to make their own games, their own ideas. But even those who do not, and who have the skills to pull these things off, have trouble getting it done. That's why they license engines in the first place, to reduce the amount of work they need to do. To make things easier to get done.

With regards to Bravetree, more power to them and I hope to see some more titles from them in the future. They are not an accurate reflection of the average indie team though. That is an experienced team of paid employees, which most "garage" games are not. Most products have some guys with some experience and some guys with little or none. Some guys who may have a few hours to spend after their day jobs, and some guys who may only have a few hours a week. They have project members who will vanish mysteriously or who will quickly leave to attach themselves onto another project. That's why there is such a large graveyard of dead projects that started with ambitious goals.

EDIT: I realized after reading through this, that it might come off the wrong way. I am not trying to say that indie projects can not be done with Torque or TSE. My point was that with the state of TSE, it hasn't been ready to ship the majority of these things. And the people who claim otherwise either claim to write a certain style of game or to add the missing features. My point was meant to show that most teams simply can not do that.

And on a sidenote, after having worked with several teams on different projects in the four and a half years that I have been a member here at GG... I am almost to the point where I believe that the best way is not to try to attach yourself to an indie team of like minded people, because the chances are that team will split up before it's over... I am almost to the point (though I haven't done it) where I feel that the best route as a programmer would just be to make the game that you want to make, buy some art from a professional house and do it all yourself, unless you happen to be a part of a proven team. Probably not the best advice to give someone on here, but it might be the best way to get a project done once you have some experience with Torque.

#166 Jackass comments removed by Anton Bursch

#167 Jackass comments removed by Anton Bursch

#168

Quote:You know... XNA is about to bring a swarm of noobs to this community. I'm following the forums about XNA and I think TorqueX is going to be the biggest product GG has ever had. And there's going to be a LOT of c# devs and kids and hobbiests that are going to be looking at the '70,000' strong GG community for help. And if they show up and get a sign that says 'no whining' or are told how lame their game idea is or how much c# sucks... think about what that is going to do.

I had enough of that at my last community, 'tis very annoying, people are allowed to complain, as long as they do it sensibly and properly (Meaning, email customer services) You will get, I hate the word, but I'll use it anyway, 'noobs', but, the annoying 'OMGZ leterz makerz a gamez with stupid ideas' type of people tend not to even have the attention span to learn C# and will back away once they realise how hard it is for them. Those kind of people are usually attracted by stuff like the Oblivion mods and Dark Basic or Blitz Basic or gamemakeris their programming language, not C#. But if they were to come, I'd defend them if I saw people discouraging them, unless they turn out like one person I know...I think Torque X will help GG, because it opens up a bigger market, I wouldn't mind using C# with Torque, simply because I know more of it than I know of C++.

But what I find really annoying is people being directly pissed at GG, why? So what if they charge extra for upgrades now, they need to make money, they are still reasonably to indies. You'd have to pay upgrades on a 3D modelling program, it would cost me

#169

Quote:
Perhaps you should look at this a bit from GG's perspective. We could have kept our mouths shut and never let anyone even know that TSE existed until it was done.

Huh. I'm not sure who you are directing that to, but I havent said anything about how TSE has been developed or it's release.

#170 I think this thread is going round in circles.....and has kind of gone off topic. GG seem to be in a damned if you do, damned if you don't situation and I think it would benifit everyone here to let them get on with their work in peace, rather then defending themselves on the forums. I also think that complaining that TSE is a week or 2 late, when its been going for 2.5 years is a bit trivial, noone here needed it last week, we just all want it and are acting spoilt because daddy hasn't finished our new toy yet.

#171 I think this thread should be locked now.
And if GG would really like to know how their customerbase looks at their companyprofile
this thread could be replaced by a enduser survey.
Because i dont think this thread will give a new user/prospect a fair view over GG products and support.

#172 I like the products, I buy the products; for me, it's 'simple'. Others; make things way too complex. I feel what GG has done and is doing; helps more than it hurts. As I here, at these Forums, try to help more than 'hurt'. Let that be the measuring stick, eh?

Cheers! :).

I'm sorry this Thread has gotten hijacked and has become a Point/CounterPoint on a different subject entirely...

#173

Quote:With regards to Bravetree, more power to them and I hope to see some more titles from them in the future. They are not an accurate reflection of the average indie team though. That is an experienced team of paid employees, which most "garage" games are not.

I would beg to differ on this. BraveTree, when we made ThinkTanks, consisted of 3 developers. 1 coder and 2 artists. Yes, we had experience (which did help), but we were being paid out of our savings accounts, contract work, and sales of content packs.

We grew from 3 to 5 (the addition of 2 coders, Matt Fairfax and John Quigley). Note that the additions to the team came from the community. We added another artist, Mark McCoy, who was a friend of mine who came to work for us due to his addiction to ThinkTanks. (unfortunately, we lost an artist, Mike Jahnke, along the way). Additionally, we worked closely with community members (Pascal Bos, Tom Bampton, Brett Fattori) on various projects. Of the BraveTree crew prior to being consumed by GG, only 2 of the 5 had game development experience in a commercial game development house.

I am not trying to downplay the importance of our experience, but I do want people to be aware that our size and team makeup were not that different from a lot of indie teams.

I also want to point out that for ThinkTanks, we definitely chose a project we knew we could complete with the technology and resources we had.

As for more titles from us in the future, we are now all at GarageGames, and you are seeing glimpses of our work in all the GG products, like Marble Blast Ultra, TSE, Torque X, and TGB.

#174 Holy crap what a thread.
Ok, this is simple:
1) 1.4 of TGE was the last free upgrade, so if you purchases 1.4, you got what you paid for, I started back with 1.3 and my downloads still doesn't include 1.42 (whatever is in that build)

2) TSE IS A DIFFERENT ENGINE! Ok, I own that also, and to date, haven't got it to run, I get an error after hitting F11 and no help on this issue and I have posted about it, have to check the threads again though.

3) TGB IS ALSO A DIFFERENT ENGINE!! Ok, well, I own that one also, COME ON!

People you just don't get marketing, If you go to the store and buy a product, you MIGHT get free patches, but no FREE upgrades! Look at the SIM's, every 'expansion' is a POINT UPDATE to torque, so you buy the core, 1.4, now they patch it, 1.41, 1.42, 1.4x, thats a PATCH, they add expansions to its abilities, thats an UPGRADE COST, its simple math, its simple logic, and for heavens sakes, if you think that they will charge $100 for an upgrade to existing owners, thats insane, 10-1 odds its going to be something like $50, which is FINE.

Patches = free, thats the .0x releases
Upgrades = cost, thats the .x releases

To stay in business you have to have income, period, this is CHEAP.
I spend more in gas to get to and from work every week than I would on an upgrade.

Now if I can only get TSE to work, I might be happier.

As my grandpa used to say, just send me the bill, the check is in the mail.

#175

Quote:so if you purchases 1.4, you got what you paid for,

well... it seems as if Jonathan hasn't read the bug fixes for 1.4 yet...
at the very least, i didn't see it advertised anywhere in the 1.4 promos that i would be getting these neat 'features'... hell, i would've paid twice the price, if i knew i was getting all that :0)

i will agree with him though, as far as what he said in the first line of his post...

Holy Crap!!!

i can't believe this thread is still going on... and stronger than ever...

well, like i said above... i'm gonna wait and not get in a tizzy over rumors and such, until the final
word is given...


now, will someone please tell me about some of the new stuff in 1.5... the volume lights especially...

inquiring minds want to know :0)



--Mike

#176 Lets let this die, lock it, its not healthy. I am a happy customer, in my opinion to give GG grief for wanting money on further upgrades is unfair, complain if you have to. Leave GG be, just get on with a game, you've got enough resources and the engine to do it and community support. Enjoy the product instead of picking at them, if bugs become a problem, theres always a way around them.

#177 Yes let it die. No point in doing this any longer both "sides" have made their points. No need to examine any further. What's done is done so plan accordingly.

#178 I agree: The horse has been beaten into the ground. Let it lie, guys.

#179 You all keep mentioning how great all the products are over and over..
no shit let the old dead horse finish rotting..

however the context of this thread is not so much as required free patch's.
nor is it a complaint about the products or the mannerism used to market them.

the context of this thread is the changelog and the changes listed.

the changes listed in that log are referring to many community fix's as if they are not included in 1.4.2 or whatever it is.

but listed like they are Only included in the new purchase engine.

That is the context.

However, if you took the time to read near the top of this mongo blown out of proportion thread.
you will see that the answer's are there..
most of the fix's in question are indeed in 1.4.2 and that the log listed for 1.5 is Actually a
1.4 - 1.5 changelog, not 1.4.2 - 1.5
which it does not state so there was confusion.

but it is all settled now so relax its all good.

#180 Why do you people have to resort to badmouthing horses. They have limited typing abilities because they have hooves.