A MMO/MMORPG game completely player-run

#1 That is a very interesting idea - and a very good one I think. Implementation would be a problem... not impossible... but problematic, and has several considerations.

Mechanically, it might need to work something like SecondLife, where the player can add anything at any time in any place. That takes a very unusual distribution mechanism. Much different from classic model/texture/script distribution (which are part of the game download), rather it might require a mechanism for dynamic, real-time download from the server (e.g. the reference to SecondLife) for all in-world artifacts and behaviour. Logically, you would need to require someone to invent the wheel, then fire, then tool-making, then manufacturing technology (or in either order) ore refining, then machining, etc... before implementing the internal cumbustion powered vechicle. In other words, you would need to limit the advancement of technology to a logical progression. The definition of this technological progression, then the classification of inventions to that morphology would be a problem. On the other hand, if you predefined the technological progression beforehand, and made that progression available to the inhabitants of the world via in-game discovery, you could completely guide/limit/control that progression.

The next, and probably more important and interesting element of the game you described, is the political aspect. There are a couple of ways to look at this problem see below). One of the most interesting games politically I have ever seen was on the Darktide server of Asheron's Call (the original, not the failed sequel). This was a completely PK server, with relatively severe ramifications of death. The controlling factions were alliances based on public opinion and strength of numbers, and was all PLAYER-CHOSEN criteria. There were no in-game mechanics at all to direct or choose alliance or politics.

First Political Idea: An interesting thought process would be how to direct that type of game situation with reward mechanics... in other words to provide game-specified, provided advantages and disadvantages to specific factions (good, bad, neutral). Unless you are EXTREMELY carefull, those advantages and disadvantages will be exploited (e.g. the reason I liked the AC Darktide example... there was no in-game mechanism [at least politically] to exploit in this case). Questions also arise as to the treatment of otherwise equal, but separate factions within a defined categoy (good, bad, neutral [or whatever else you define]).

Second Political Idea: Rather than rewarding a faction for it's alignment (good, bad, neutral, whatever) would be to provide mechanisms for support of the alliance of various groups... things like automatic in-game identification of individuals from aligned factions, alliance chat, bonuses for estabishing alliances, group leaders, faction leaders, alliance leaders, access to otherwise limited areas for aligned factions, etc. You may or may not need a method for elections of officials (The Darktide example above did not need anything like that. The most powerful guys decided who was leader). This might provide an in-game addition to the alliance of bad and neutral against good, in the case when good got too powerful... or whichever :)

In summary, I really like your idea. I know from the previously sited example of Darktide that aspects of your idea will work with at least some game players. I really like the part about building from the ground up (one more note on that at the very end) I think that you have the kernel of an idea that, with the right creativity/backing/implementation/advertising could work.

Last Note RE building from the ground up.: If you have a successful game that plays for many years, you must keep it interesting for the new players. Over the few years it has been active, Eve Online has had some aspects of gameplay similar to what you envisioned... the problem is that a new player is so completely powerless to make an impact in the world that many lose interest early (and other than identity as part of a community, AC Darktide was even worse). Games like Dark Age of Camelot tried to remedy this with low-level PK areas... and with reasonable success I think. You will REALLY need to consider something like that... I just don't have any good mechanism in mind.

#2 I think your idea is great as well, similar to an idea for a game based on ancient times I have.

I like david kennedy's second political idea myself; I think base the political system on a guild system so players could start they're own guilds or governments, allow players in make they're own alliances with other guilds/governments, take control of map/regions and make the laws for those lands.

I think a good idea for implementing the technological advancement is to have all the technologies already available, all the players have to do is discover them. To gain the technologies you might have to complete a quest or something similar.

I hope you make this it sounds like alot of fun and please port it to mac so I can play it lol.

#3 The beginning of your (huge) design sounds a bit like Neandertal. They had some really great ideas... I would love to make a caveman MMO someday.

#4 Well, David, i appreciate your post (and you other's too *wink*)

About that "new players coming in too late don't get / can't do a thing"

It is probably the most serious problem. In a game, called StarSonata, they managed that in a simple way, once in a while, *demolish the universe*. That won't work here in this game, at least not without changings. In StarSonata, the only things you can build is bases and drones (auto-turret, shoots at your enemies), and the world would work without them.

But true, something must be done to invite the new players.
A solution could be adding more servers as the game grows but it has some big flaws;
This would probably not work. Let's say we create a server, let it roll for a year, things are on the brink to overflow, and it just ain't fun to be paid by another player to do his/her dirty job anymore.
Whoops, what's this? A new server? If i jump in quick, i could become the biggest on the server. So, all without high posts in the first server jumps over to the new one, the big bosses lose all worth playing for, as they have no people able to work for them.

I cant write anymore now, gotta go, will think on those ideas though.
Til next.

#5 One MMO that never made it to completion had a solution for new players arriving late in the world development. New players enter the game as children, and their parents are players who are already established. The parents are responsible for showing the new player how the world works, protect them against higher level threats, and provide basic survival supplies.

For use in your concept, a new player could enter a world could intern or have a sponsor of an already established person or association. Definitely plays a lot like the real world. When I moved to Orlando, I had no place to live, no job, and no connections. Luckily, I had a car and few bucks my parents gave me to survive the first few days.

#6 Heck didn't think i could return this quick... :) (internet at home broke down, so im at a library, and then came this guy who had reserved the computer (my reservation had since long expired), well, but now im back hehe)
Hey, that could probably be a very good idea, Michael, like this:

Any player can, in a menu, request "spawns", and whenever a new player joins, he can choose whether to be a spawn or not. If he chooses so, he spawns inside the requesting player's residence.

Supporting the spawn will be costly (in SOME way, mustn't be money), but to encourage people to do it, thew bonus will be well worth, the best would be items/accessibles/privileges that cannot be obtained in any other way. Of course the spawning can't be too costly, as only the richest would be able to have spawns, and that would'nt really work. One thing that every player has an equal amount of is TIME, so make it cost TIME, and then just a small amount of cash. If the game would have another resource that is equal to all levels, this could be the payment.

If any player feels they don't want to be a spawn of any player anymore, they can just "quit" the alignment, reducing the reward given to the other player. This would encourage paying your spawns to make them stay. But there we go again, easier for rich characters.

The game benefits from this by getting them up to speed, instead of having absolutely nothing when they enter the world.
The spawners benefit from this by getting a bigger reward the longer they take care of their spawns, up to a certain limit of course, when the character is deemed ready.
The spawns benefit from this by starting with more resources, giving them a chance to make their marks in the world.

That could solve the problem quite well i think, of course, as there always are with these ideas, there *are* flaws.

#7 The only way I can see this working is if starting from the ground up can happen repeatedly without having to open new servers. You could implement instanced zones for each player to build up on their own or as a group effort (like a guild).

#8 First off, sorry for taking so long to get back to the thread... have been out of town for a while...

Some good ideas I think, as far as solving the new player dilemma, Erik, you may be on the right track with your "spawn" idea. If I understand your idea correctly, a new character chooses (at creation), to become part of an existing organization/hierarchy. That association provides real advantages for both the newb and the benefactor. This could also be implemented in the parent/child relationship that Michael suggested. Off the top of my head, there are a couple of ways this could work:

1 - You might be able to simplify implementation by providing an in-game reward system for only the benefactor... the benefactor must implement a reward system for the new player sufficient to make the new player want to continue the relationship. This would require expenditure of resources on the part of the benefactor in order to keep the new player interested in continuing the relationship. The in-game benefits would need to be sufficient to automatically keep the benefactor interested.

2 - From my previous MMOG experience, by the time I am competent to help a new player I have everything I need (with one exception, as you will see) to outfit a newb with all the best equipment. What I don't have is enough *time* to spend teaching a newb all the tricks, techniques and rules. By the low mid-levels (where the levels start to become harder to obtain), I am involved in the experience grind... and since I don't have the time to devote my life to a game, time is very limited... and I am mostly concerned with employing the most efficient methods to gain experience. To combat this problem, you could implement a system where helping a newb advance is a very efficient method of advancing yourself. If you are a level 20-30 player, and you are teamed with a newb for 5 of his first 10 levels, you automatically get a level and "honor" or "guild" points. For the other 5 of the first 10 levels, the newb must fight on his/her own (to let them learn the actual mechanics of the game... and if you are still in a benefactor relationship, maybe you get another half level or something). This keeps the upper level player from PLing the lower to the point where the newb does not really know how to play the game. I generally like to have several different types of characters in the world, with different looks and abilities. I do HATE having to level those characters however (that does raise another subject though, doesn't it). Once you are a level 30-40 player, you can get another level by helping a "not-so-newb" player get 5 of 10 levels from 10-20... etc. This gives incentive to people to help others at less rank than themselves. By the same token, the experienced player could only get 5 out of any 10 levels through helping newbs... the other 5 would need to come from normal experience. This would simplify the advancement of additional characters for people who have already advanced one avatar.

I'll think about this some more...

#9 Heh, I just keep thinking "Multi-level Marketing" and "Pyramid" schemes.

#10 I'd go with the first example hehe :)

Really, it must be simple, even it any more complex solution would be better.
From my own experience, i can take StarSonata as an example, really, it's a great game, but the reason why the player base is relatively limited, is because it's too complicated for most people. Keeping a base up and running is just too much tinkering, and most people just can't seem to keep hold on the difference between BioWall and Pink Envelope.

So if a function as integrated and important as this would be too complicated, the game wouldn't reach the big scene, i think.
So: The spawner gains otherwise inaccessible bonuses depending on how long his spawn stays in the relationship, and to keep the spawn IN the relationship (and thus gaining better bonuses), he must pay the spawn in a certain restricted currency, that's used to *buy* other bonuses as well, that wouldn't make you better, but give you alternative ways to play. Compare D&D and Magic the Gathering or Oblivion and Dark Messiah. As the game progresses in Magic and Dark Messiah, you don't neccesarily get more powerful, but you earn new, more exotic spells, compared to D&D and Oblivion, where your character gets better and better while raising in levels. (of course there should be a level system, but these specific BONUSES should work a la Dark Messiah style)
The restricted currency could be gained in one/some of these ways:

1. You could gain it over time only. (equal to all players)
2. You could buy it for real money. (not really a good idea though imo, poorer people wouldn't be able to benefit from it, and if you want to attract a big scene like China, that's generally a bad idea)
3. In Conquer, a MMORPG i played once, the higher lvl players gained extra cash constantly every time they killed a big monster, but giving the xp to the newb, thus, you gain another element of the *community helps itself* effect. So you could gain the currency by helping noobs. (but then again, not equal to all levels, and as well, you GAIN this currency at the same time while spending it, on you spawn, making the payment pretty easened up)

#11 And then it's this global tech tree. Let's say in the beginning, you have to invent the "sharp rock" (some1 got a more logic name for that? :D) in order to invent the knife, in order to... you know, like any RTS tech tree.

But the question is, should there be a global pre-defined tech tree (the simplest and most straight-forward), or should there be a more advanced, that varies depending on where you are.
(dfferend establishments researched in different parts of the tech tree, making one city the mecka of Big Bertha's Tanks (TM), and another town, the farming community, where they have the uber-biggest hightechie farming devices you could think of)

Then there is my favorite. In the beginning of the game (or individual server, if one would go for that *create new server once in a while to satisfy new players* idea), the available tech tree is relatively small. And as time goes on, new things are available for research. This would either be events triggered by the game, or just added by the admins at any time deemed good. If this idea is implemented, the development time would be decreased a bit too, as you wouldn't have to add all the techs to the game in the beginning, but rather add them as time goes on.

Still, this would require lots of maintenance (especially with several servers), so some kind of hybrid, however that would be done, is my best bet.

#12 I am assuming this would be a city builder type game. I have trouble seeing it as a non-city builder.

You guys are talking about wasting your time writing code that will only ever happen ONCE. If half the game is something that only happens once between all players (i.e. somebody discovers a spear, and nobody will ever be able to discover a spear again and eventualy it is obselete anyway) then it probably shouldn't be a persistant world game. If it is done this way, it needs to be done as a community project and new inventions must be easily added to the game world, because you will be doing it a lot.

If the tech tree has to be climbed by EVERY player, you still have the problem of limited terrain space to build cities. This works in Civ 4 because it is not a persistant game. Even if you faithfully map out our entire solar system and every planet down to the inch, I promise it will be packed full within a week of release. What will you do, run a million servers? Again, cities should be a community effort as well, unless you severely limit the number of cities (and the size) players can have.

Remember, each time you open a new server, it is a new server you will have to keep up indefinitely. Players do not appreciate working hard to build up their account, and suddenly losing it all a year, or even 5 years later. If my character in Star Wars Galaxies were deleted, I wouldn't be reopening my account every 6 months to see what's new. Later on, returning players are what will keep you going in a MMO, it is hard to get new shelf space in stores unless you come out with an expansion (which further alienates new players because they have to buy two games to play one).

#13 Well that's the main problem: How to keep the game interresting for new players as well as not "depleting" it.

The only idea i came up to fix the depleting stuff (which would too with so far is waay out of line:
"It is probably the most serious problem. In a game, called StarSonata, they managed that in a simple way, once in a while, *demolish the universe*. That won't work here in this game, at least not without changings. In StarSonata, the only things you can build is bases and drones (auto-turret, shoots at your enemies), and the world would work without them."