Does TGE/TSE do lightmapping or not?
by Andres Hernandez · in Torque Game Engine · 07/15/2006 (9:33 pm) · 7 replies
I have attempted to search through the forum to find some info, but none of it was really complete. If I understand correctly, Torque out-of-box supports some sort of lightmapping that doesn't really work too good hence the need for this lighting pack. I found it hard to believe a graphic feature as important as lighting would need an extra add-on. Even more surprising is that they expect you to buy it without one fullsized image to at least showcase what the pack does. So does Torque support lightmapping or not?
Basically I'd like to use either 3dmax or a helper app like gile[s] to lightmap a scene to be imported into Torque. I expect to be able to do all the fancy prerendered things you'd normally do with lightmaps such as baking radiosity into a texture, global illumination, etc. From what I've read Torque either doesn't support this at all or it is glitchy in some way. What is really going on? Are there any 3rd party tools that will let you do this with Torque? And how can such a basic feature like this (available in Quake*1*) not be part of the torque package?
If you are unsure of exactly what I am looking for, please download this demo (done in quest3d) and let me know if anything even remotely similar could be done in torque:
http://www.quest3d.com/download/demo3/Quest3D_Demo_Room_1_Widescreen_Uani.exe
Thanks.
Basically I'd like to use either 3dmax or a helper app like gile[s] to lightmap a scene to be imported into Torque. I expect to be able to do all the fancy prerendered things you'd normally do with lightmaps such as baking radiosity into a texture, global illumination, etc. From what I've read Torque either doesn't support this at all or it is glitchy in some way. What is really going on? Are there any 3rd party tools that will let you do this with Torque? And how can such a basic feature like this (available in Quake*1*) not be part of the torque package?
If you are unsure of exactly what I am looking for, please download this demo (done in quest3d) and let me know if anything even remotely similar could be done in torque:
http://www.quest3d.com/download/demo3/Quest3D_Demo_Room_1_Widescreen_Uani.exe
Thanks.
About the author
#2
But more than that, you get tools that let you work with the lighting more effeciently, where you can do effects that simulate radiosity, etc while using the features in TGE and TLK.
Yes, TGE has support for lightmaps, pretty much always had.
TLK, as said, adds some lighting/shadowing stuff, and tools, but there's a core lighting system already in place for TGE.
Now, as for hte program you linked to:
Firstly: very impressive, lots of detail and high res stuff. Very nice.
Secondly, if something along those lines is what you're looking for, i'd say look into the shader engine, as a) it'd have support for higher res models, textures, etc(which would generaly include lightmapping)
While TGE does have lightmaps, and if you ues a brush-editor, like QUARK, Hammer, or Constructor when it comes out, TGE's lightmaps, by default, are relatively low resolution.
While they can indeed be raised to much higher resolution, it would be some work on the engine side of things.
That said, if you have access, and know how to use a brush-editor that you can export DIFs to, you can do stuff like that sure, though getting it higher res would take some modifications. Again, i would personally say look into the shader engine if you're ging for that level of detail in your lighting and stuff.
While TSE doesnt yet have a lighting system in place, it has support for basic lightmapping, , and a universal light(the sun)
MileStone 4(the next milestone) will be the release of the full lighting solution.
Hope you found this somewhat helpful. I'd be willing to answer more questions if you have them.
07/16/2006 (1:25 am)
Quite a few of the features in the TLK are in stock TGE, however, TLK more gives you tools to work with the lighting, than add features. Yes, some things are added, like static mesh shadows, illumination values for statics, better dynamic lighting, more vibrant lighting, volume lights, etc.But more than that, you get tools that let you work with the lighting more effeciently, where you can do effects that simulate radiosity, etc while using the features in TGE and TLK.
Yes, TGE has support for lightmaps, pretty much always had.
TLK, as said, adds some lighting/shadowing stuff, and tools, but there's a core lighting system already in place for TGE.
Now, as for hte program you linked to:
Firstly: very impressive, lots of detail and high res stuff. Very nice.
Secondly, if something along those lines is what you're looking for, i'd say look into the shader engine, as a) it'd have support for higher res models, textures, etc(which would generaly include lightmapping)
While TGE does have lightmaps, and if you ues a brush-editor, like QUARK, Hammer, or Constructor when it comes out, TGE's lightmaps, by default, are relatively low resolution.
While they can indeed be raised to much higher resolution, it would be some work on the engine side of things.
That said, if you have access, and know how to use a brush-editor that you can export DIFs to, you can do stuff like that sure, though getting it higher res would take some modifications. Again, i would personally say look into the shader engine if you're ging for that level of detail in your lighting and stuff.
While TSE doesnt yet have a lighting system in place, it has support for basic lightmapping, , and a universal light(the sun)
MileStone 4(the next milestone) will be the release of the full lighting solution.
Hope you found this somewhat helpful. I'd be willing to answer more questions if you have them.
#3
I don't quite understand your irritation at the thought of purchasing a lighting add-on. It's not an uncommon practice, and the price is quite reasonable in my opinion. TGE does have lighting; if needed, alternative lighting models are available for a very modest sum.
If I'm understanding quest3D's website correctly, the low-end version of that product sells for approximately $1200 US. If you purchase the deluxe version, it's closer to $12,000.00 US.
TGE's Indie license on the other hand, sells for $100 US. Add in TLK for enhanced lighting effects, and your price tag escalates to a staggering cough -- $150 US. And that includes the full source code!
I think any reasonable person would agree that Torque's pricing is far from outrageous, and this scaled approach is perfect for the indie developer.
If TGE's out-of-the-box options aren't adequate for your project needs, you can spend $50 more to add TLK's terrific features to the mix. And if that still doesn't ring your chimes, go with TSE for even more advanced rendering options.
And if that wasn't enough, there are hundreds of free resources donated by the development community to add specular bloom, dynamic range lighting, enhanced particle effects -- well, heck, I could list goodies until my fingers fell off. Pick through the resources section and you'll see what I mean.
The trade off, however, is that Torque does not spoon-feed these features to you. You'll need to be able to code changes to the engine and troubleshoot them to get the most out of the Torque engines. Some features are rough around the edges, and require a little finesse to get them to behave. Documentation is spotty in places, so you'll wind up conferring with the developer community continually during the development process.
In my book, those trade-offs are well worth the reduced price tag.
In answer to your tech spec questions, yes, I believe Torque is capable of producing the effects in the demo you indicated -- but not out of the box. You'll need to make significant modifications to the engine to implement radiosity and bloom, but the hard work has already been done for you by other developers.
I work primarily in TGE + TLK, so I can't speak for TSE.
TGE does support baked-in textures and lightmapping straight from the box. TLK further improves the lighting model with a variety of stock and customizable lighting options. Engine mods to implement radiosity are available in the resources section.
TGE primarily uses two formats for its geometry: .DIF for interiors, and .DTS for animated or more detailed meshes. DIFs must comply with BSP rules -- for example, the hulls/brushes that make up the geometry must be convex.
Because 3DS does not perform any of the checking needed for BSP compliance, and cannot automatically optimize these files on export, it's not recommended as a tool for creating interiors. However, if you really know what you're doing, you can use 3rd party products such as Game Level Builder to export from Max to DIF format.
Most folks rely on traditional .MAP format editors like QuArK, Cartography Shop, and 3D World Studio for their interiors.
Max is ideal for DTS creation, however, so you can create awesome details, characters, vehicles, and non-structural elements in it. The Max2DTS exporter is included with TGE, if memory serves.
There's also a resource (by Matt Fairfax?) that permits you to use .3DS objects as native shapes in Torque -- another example of the goodies you'll find in the resources section.
To sum it up, yes, Torque can rock your world -- but it will make you work for it!
I hope that helps...
-- JohnDopp
07/16/2006 (3:17 am)
Andres,I don't quite understand your irritation at the thought of purchasing a lighting add-on. It's not an uncommon practice, and the price is quite reasonable in my opinion. TGE does have lighting; if needed, alternative lighting models are available for a very modest sum.
If I'm understanding quest3D's website correctly, the low-end version of that product sells for approximately $1200 US. If you purchase the deluxe version, it's closer to $12,000.00 US.
TGE's Indie license on the other hand, sells for $100 US. Add in TLK for enhanced lighting effects, and your price tag escalates to a staggering cough -- $150 US. And that includes the full source code!
I think any reasonable person would agree that Torque's pricing is far from outrageous, and this scaled approach is perfect for the indie developer.
If TGE's out-of-the-box options aren't adequate for your project needs, you can spend $50 more to add TLK's terrific features to the mix. And if that still doesn't ring your chimes, go with TSE for even more advanced rendering options.
And if that wasn't enough, there are hundreds of free resources donated by the development community to add specular bloom, dynamic range lighting, enhanced particle effects -- well, heck, I could list goodies until my fingers fell off. Pick through the resources section and you'll see what I mean.
The trade off, however, is that Torque does not spoon-feed these features to you. You'll need to be able to code changes to the engine and troubleshoot them to get the most out of the Torque engines. Some features are rough around the edges, and require a little finesse to get them to behave. Documentation is spotty in places, so you'll wind up conferring with the developer community continually during the development process.
In my book, those trade-offs are well worth the reduced price tag.
In answer to your tech spec questions, yes, I believe Torque is capable of producing the effects in the demo you indicated -- but not out of the box. You'll need to make significant modifications to the engine to implement radiosity and bloom, but the hard work has already been done for you by other developers.
I work primarily in TGE + TLK, so I can't speak for TSE.
TGE does support baked-in textures and lightmapping straight from the box. TLK further improves the lighting model with a variety of stock and customizable lighting options. Engine mods to implement radiosity are available in the resources section.
TGE primarily uses two formats for its geometry: .DIF for interiors, and .DTS for animated or more detailed meshes. DIFs must comply with BSP rules -- for example, the hulls/brushes that make up the geometry must be convex.
Because 3DS does not perform any of the checking needed for BSP compliance, and cannot automatically optimize these files on export, it's not recommended as a tool for creating interiors. However, if you really know what you're doing, you can use 3rd party products such as Game Level Builder to export from Max to DIF format.
Most folks rely on traditional .MAP format editors like QuArK, Cartography Shop, and 3D World Studio for their interiors.
Max is ideal for DTS creation, however, so you can create awesome details, characters, vehicles, and non-structural elements in it. The Max2DTS exporter is included with TGE, if memory serves.
There's also a resource (by Matt Fairfax?) that permits you to use .3DS objects as native shapes in Torque -- another example of the goodies you'll find in the resources section.
To sum it up, yes, Torque can rock your world -- but it will make you work for it!
I hope that helps...
-- JohnDopp
#4
Jeff, can you explain what you meant when you said: "TSE doesnt yet have a lighting system in place..."?
I was thinking that TSE would have remedied any issues with the TGE render engine. Is the early adopter version still not production ready? Thanks
07/16/2006 (7:35 am)
John, I hope I didn't offend you with my post. It certainly wasn't intended that way. I realize that torque is a low-cost solution, and I wasn't really balking at the price of an add-on. My point was that if it needed an add-on, then obviously there was something missing from the default package. I don't think $50 is too much for a useful application. I was just saying that there should be some high-resolution screenshots justifying why the add-on is useful. Something like a split image with two identical renders: "with lighting pack" "default lighting" or something to that effect. If there is such an image and I missed it, I apologize in advance. Thanks for the info, though.Jeff, can you explain what you meant when you said: "TSE doesnt yet have a lighting system in place..."?
I was thinking that TSE would have remedied any issues with the TGE render engine. Is the early adopter version still not production ready? Thanks
#5
So you're saying that as soon as a feature is incomplete or missing - content packs emerge to fill in the gaps?
No.
To pick an example:
Audio in Torque ain't that impressive, still we see no content pack for that - right?
Because no one has pulled it off yet. Someone tried but failed. We are just lucky that John Kabus and Synapse Gaming released the lighting pack or even started working on it.
It's an *enhancement*, not a fix or anything like that. I know you didn't say that, but I just want to make it clear.
07/16/2006 (8:02 am)
Quote:
I realize that torque is a low-cost solution, and I wasn't really balking at the price of an add-on. My point was that if it needed an add-on, then obviously there was something missing from the default package.
So you're saying that as soon as a feature is incomplete or missing - content packs emerge to fill in the gaps?
No.
To pick an example:
Audio in Torque ain't that impressive, still we see no content pack for that - right?
Because no one has pulled it off yet. Someone tried but failed. We are just lucky that John Kabus and Synapse Gaming released the lighting pack or even started working on it.
It's an *enhancement*, not a fix or anything like that. I know you didn't say that, but I just want to make it clear.
#6
TSE is not released yet, it is still under development. What he meant was - that part's not done yet, but it's in the road map and they are expecing it to become available with milestone 4. Currently, TSE is on Milestone 3.5 so that means that we should be seeing milestone 4 show up... well, by saying soon I imply a timeframe which I just can't do. In a release that should follow the current version sequentially.
07/16/2006 (11:55 am)
Quote:
Jeff, can you explain what you meant when you said: "TSE doesnt yet have a lighting system in place..."?
I was thinking that TSE would have remedied any issues with the TGE render engine. Is the early adopter version still not production ready? Thanks
TSE is not released yet, it is still under development. What he meant was - that part's not done yet, but it's in the road map and they are expecing it to become available with milestone 4. Currently, TSE is on Milestone 3.5 so that means that we should be seeing milestone 4 show up... well, by saying soon I imply a timeframe which I just can't do. In a release that should follow the current version sequentially.
#7
I was able to search through the forum a bit more and I did find some decent stills from TLK as well as the promo video for TSE+TLK. It looks very good. I find it odd that GG doesn't bother to put any of these high-quality shots on the purchase page. They were a little hard to find.
Also, I have since found the Legions videos online and they look awesome. Seeing the upcoming TSE engine in action has shattered any doubts I had about the capabilities of the engine. Why didn't someone just point me there in the first place?
07/21/2006 (3:44 am)
I'd like to apologize for my previous post. There was actually some sort of glitch in the TGE demo install which made the lightmaps not render correctly. I feel like such a newbie now, but at the time I hadn't realized the install was corrupted. I have since reinstalled the demo and everything seems to be working fine. I was able to search through the forum a bit more and I did find some decent stills from TLK as well as the promo video for TSE+TLK. It looks very good. I find it odd that GG doesn't bother to put any of these high-quality shots on the purchase page. They were a little hard to find.
Also, I have since found the Legions videos online and they look awesome. Seeing the upcoming TSE engine in action has shattered any doubts I had about the capabilities of the engine. Why didn't someone just point me there in the first place?
Torque 3D Owner iHugMedia
Torque's Lighting engine renders a light map for the level the first time the level is loaded, and every time the level is altered.
The Lighting Kit adds support for Dynamic lighting effects, a more sophisticated shadow system, full DTS object shading and DRL, aswell as allowing for an easiere customizable lighting style.