Please show me *ONE* impressive demo...
by Andres Hernandez · in Torque Game Engine · 07/12/2006 (6:55 am) · 52 replies
I am working on an online multiplayer game which is currently in pre-production. The team had suggested using Torque, for its robust network support, however I am still not completely sold. First off, the project is a MMORPG (please spare me the speech), so we need an engine that can support a large amount of simultaneous players. As far as I've seen, Torque is the best for that aspect in terms of indie 3d engines. The engine also has great support and a large community. This is all great, but when it comes to 3d engines, graphics are key. Of the demos I've seen, nothing out there really impressed me.
Don't get me wrong, I think its a great engine and would love to use it. It just seems somewhat dated. I need some evidence that the engine can support a modern game. If anyone has a real-time demo that truely displays what this engine has to offer, please post a link. Everything I see on the screenshot section looks like a Playstation1 game or a PC game from the 90's. I don't expect to get the Source engine for $100, but I would like to at least be able to produce something that has a chance at commercial success.
From what I have seen, the only demo worth mentioning is the Dojo demo done in TSE. My issue is that it seems that TSE is still beta and not yet ready to be used for a full-fledged game. So again, if anyone can show me just *ONE* demo that is impressive I will be sold. But as of right now, I can't really see using this engine for anything serious.
Don't get me wrong, I think its a great engine and would love to use it. It just seems somewhat dated. I need some evidence that the engine can support a modern game. If anyone has a real-time demo that truely displays what this engine has to offer, please post a link. Everything I see on the screenshot section looks like a Playstation1 game or a PC game from the 90's. I don't expect to get the Source engine for $100, but I would like to at least be able to produce something that has a chance at commercial success.
From what I have seen, the only demo worth mentioning is the Dojo demo done in TSE. My issue is that it seems that TSE is still beta and not yet ready to be used for a full-fledged game. So again, if anyone can show me just *ONE* demo that is impressive I will be sold. But as of right now, I can't really see using this engine for anything serious.
About the author
#2
Do you have a team of highly dedicated programmers and artists willing to work with a large codebase? Are your artists married to a specific way of modeling and content creation? Even with the MMO Kit, your team will have some major work to do in TGE (though they would have as much in Source or Unreal 3--unless you could get the teams working on MMO's in Unreal 3 to allow you to license their major modifications, that is). Part of it has to do with the network structure as it stands, which has been reconfigured in the MMO kit, as well as the work that the backend servers must perform. Josh Ritter has a nice explanation of the path taken with Minions of Mirth and the direction forward. Josh is a gifted programmer who took on the task and made monumental changes to the source to make it happen.
If graphics are your primary requirement and you have a talented programming staff who wishes to target only upper echelon hardware, you might think of incorporating TNL into C4. Either that or if you have a less experienced dev team, looking at Blitz3D and RealmCrafter. The performance may be a little dodgy, but a good programmer and coherent zone design should help with that.
It's hard for me to point you many places though since I'm not sure what you find impressive or what your current team is capable of bringing to the table. I find Furcadia and Puzzle Pirates and Minions of Mirth to be impressive since they targeted a market flooded with groups with multiple millions more in cash and are still going--to be fair, Furcadia was actually going well before most of them.
07/12/2006 (7:25 am)
It depends on what you find impressive. If photorealistic graphics is your thing, then something like Marble Blast Ultra for the XBox 360 wouldn't impress you. After all, it is marbles with shader tech on platforms with shader tech. Dreamlords probably isn't your thing either. Or Dark Horizons Lore. What exactly is the market that you are targeting? The MMO moniker used to be small, but it has been flooded with so many mediocre products (and even more projects) that it is difficult to assess who you are targeting. Are you pulling from the SWG/WoW/EQ2 crowd? Or are you trying to target the niche MMO's such as Puzzle Pirates?Do you have a team of highly dedicated programmers and artists willing to work with a large codebase? Are your artists married to a specific way of modeling and content creation? Even with the MMO Kit, your team will have some major work to do in TGE (though they would have as much in Source or Unreal 3--unless you could get the teams working on MMO's in Unreal 3 to allow you to license their major modifications, that is). Part of it has to do with the network structure as it stands, which has been reconfigured in the MMO kit, as well as the work that the backend servers must perform. Josh Ritter has a nice explanation of the path taken with Minions of Mirth and the direction forward. Josh is a gifted programmer who took on the task and made monumental changes to the source to make it happen.
If graphics are your primary requirement and you have a talented programming staff who wishes to target only upper echelon hardware, you might think of incorporating TNL into C4. Either that or if you have a less experienced dev team, looking at Blitz3D and RealmCrafter. The performance may be a little dodgy, but a good programmer and coherent zone design should help with that.
It's hard for me to point you many places though since I'm not sure what you find impressive or what your current team is capable of bringing to the table. I find Furcadia and Puzzle Pirates and Minions of Mirth to be impressive since they targeted a market flooded with groups with multiple millions more in cash and are still going--to be fair, Furcadia was actually going well before most of them.
#4
07/12/2006 (7:54 am)
Yes, I did not add links to my post. Thanks, Tim. 
#5
07/12/2006 (8:11 am)
This is very subjective. Give us more details what you find "attractive" and what type of game you're targeting (MMO is not enough).
#6
07/12/2006 (8:11 am)
You're welcome David. Haven't seen you for a while on C4 forums, you should drop by more often.
#8
07/12/2006 (8:34 am)
I lurk there all the time and usually post in the "can this work on my 386?" type questions. When the forums changed, I couldn't change my name from "iamnothing" back to "David Blake". But I'm often wandering around, checking out topics and people's projects. It's a great engine. 
#9
A bit off topic, but an interesting reflection on the industry that graphics quality seems to be perceived as the most important predictor of commercial success.
07/12/2006 (8:37 am)
Quote:I don't expect to get the Source engine for $100, but I would like to at least be able to produce something that has a chance at commercial success.
A bit off topic, but an interesting reflection on the industry that graphics quality seems to be perceived as the most important predictor of commercial success.
#10
To not have the "PS1" look, look into adding the Torque Lighting Kit. This way you have looks and a complete engine to work with.
Hope that helps.
07/12/2006 (8:44 am)
Andres - Yes, you get the engine source code for $100 for an indie license (check here for the different licenses). Modify the enigne to your your liking.To not have the "PS1" look, look into adding the Torque Lighting Kit. This way you have looks and a complete engine to work with.
Hope that helps.
#11
It's also a big amount of extra work, and for an indie team, it could be deadly.
As a player, I'm more interested into a clear and readable style working well with the gameplay than any shader.
Graphics are certainly important, it's the first thing that a potential customer will judge when getting information on a game. But shaders are not everything.
TGE has pretty good assets for 3D models and lighting, and you can quickly create professional looking game.
07/12/2006 (8:57 am)
The look of your game will surely be determined a lot by your team skills and less by the engine. You could have the best engine ever made, if you don't have the artist behind it to bring life to a normal mapped model, it won't look that good.It's also a big amount of extra work, and for an indie team, it could be deadly.
As a player, I'm more interested into a clear and readable style working well with the gameplay than any shader.
Graphics are certainly important, it's the first thing that a potential customer will judge when getting information on a game. But shaders are not everything.
TGE has pretty good assets for 3D models and lighting, and you can quickly create professional looking game.
#12
07/12/2006 (10:02 am)
Another example of an MMO currently in the world is the project i'm part of, The Lounge. 
#13
(PS. Games not tools)
If so, where can i find these games ??
I have a growing feeling that money is not in the game's done with TGE or TSE its more
like "hey buy this book!", "this content pack" etc. etc......
And allways when this issue comes up.. There is always "Hey look at Marble Blast it runs on XBOX!" so what ? The game could be made with allmost any knowledge in programming.
Show me something with a touche of 2006 instead.
Just for the record. I have license for TGE,TSE and TGB.
07/12/2006 (10:27 am)
Is anyone doing any money on their products done with TGE ???(PS. Games not tools)
If so, where can i find these games ??
I have a growing feeling that money is not in the game's done with TGE or TSE its more
like "hey buy this book!", "this content pack" etc. etc......
And allways when this issue comes up.. There is always "Hey look at Marble Blast it runs on XBOX!" so what ? The game could be made with allmost any knowledge in programming.
Show me something with a touche of 2006 instead.
Just for the record. I have license for TGE,TSE and TGB.
#14
07/12/2006 (10:31 am)
Andres no engine will satisfy all your needs. if you consider the renderer to be torque's weakness, just modify it..
#15
If you are perfectly able to make a game like MB with next-to-no knowledge in programming, regardless of engine (say, the BeyondVirtual engine has a marble demo, as does Unity), then go right ahead. Think Tanks, Tube Twist, Galaway, Dark Horizons Lore, MBU, etc all took time and a severe amount of effort and dedication. I'm not quite sure if you understand what it takes to finish a game if you think that they just got pumped out with no real effort on the part of the dev teams. Maybe you don't want to make a game that is so easy to develop and finish and would rather spend time on an EQ killer. Fine. That's your perogative. But it should be noted that your post shows that you don't really seem to understand what it takes to make and finish a game. Maybe it's just the ranting tone of it; I don't know.
But in your estimation of games versus engine/content sales, you are forgetting one simple factor: that developers license TGE to make games and their needs and desires (which you express and attempt to represent) are different than those who are selling and supporting a game engine. If you make a good game, regardless of the engine, and it catches on like wildfire, it won't matter whether it was made in TGE, C4, GameMaker, Unreal 3, or RPG Maker XP. If you are selling a game engine or an engine framework, you will have a number of support and documentation issues which you will have to face. Issues that you would not have with a game. You're comparing two different things and equating them.
==== Now, a bit on my bias on the current shelf titles out ====
I'm not quite sure what you're talking about with a "touche of 2006", but most of the games that I've played this year have bit rather horribly or numbed me with their mediocrity. The 360 titles that are out are mediocre even when compared to the mediocrity of the vast majority of first-gen titles for a new system. They look pretty but I couldn't be bothered to play them for very long. Now, XBLA is a different story. Small, fun games. They may not have the bling of PDZ, but then PDZ was horribly easy in single-player and lackluster in multiplayer. It was pretty, though. Kameo was better in the fnu department. DOA4 was a fun diversion, but I still prefer the systems present in Tekken and Soul Calibur. Oblivion was better than the previous Arena games but still not my cup of tea. It was pretty, though. But I still think that Shadow of the Collossus had better art direction than any 360 title to date, and it was on a much older system with worse hardware.
Now, if you're talking PC games, there's still not a lot of fun to be had there on the retail shelves, either. F.E.A.R. was okay (and EXTREMELY AMAZING to look at). It had moments which were cool, but for the most part it didn't do it for me. Maybe I'm just jaded with the 9 million look-alike shooters which seem to have been released (though it had some good horror elements that reminded me of some parts of the Undying, which I quite enjoyed back in the day). I don't get excited by Quakes or Dooms anymore. I found Painkiller to be easy and while pretty, rather annoying. There have been some fun ones (I enjoyed Far Cry, though I felt it was derivative but pretty...I enjoyed it and felt that I had gotten my money's worth...which is quite rare nowdays). While I would like to say that I would like another AvP, I didn't really enjoy 2 much after the initial "ooh, I get to play as a face-hugger" mystique wore off--I did think that PredAliens would be more fun than they were. I haven't seen a retail MMO worth playing for longer than the included free period (and not a one has been worth the price of admission, either). Sims have been okay, but mostly with the same copycat gameplay mentality that has been going through the sim market for the last ten years. They can be pretty, yes, but I've often found that after that initial "dude, check out the opening level" fascination wears off, the games seem to rehash the gameplay from Quake 2, Rainbow 6, or Counterstrike, but do it worse. And there's a little bit of my bias.
I like games that are fun. If they look good, too. That's a bonus.
But I play a lot of games and I play with a lot of engines, which is why I asked for further information on his target audience. To point him in the right direction. If XBLA isn't it, then I need to know where he wants to be.
07/12/2006 (11:03 am)
@AlienforceIf you are perfectly able to make a game like MB with next-to-no knowledge in programming, regardless of engine (say, the BeyondVirtual engine has a marble demo, as does Unity), then go right ahead. Think Tanks, Tube Twist, Galaway, Dark Horizons Lore, MBU, etc all took time and a severe amount of effort and dedication. I'm not quite sure if you understand what it takes to finish a game if you think that they just got pumped out with no real effort on the part of the dev teams. Maybe you don't want to make a game that is so easy to develop and finish and would rather spend time on an EQ killer. Fine. That's your perogative. But it should be noted that your post shows that you don't really seem to understand what it takes to make and finish a game. Maybe it's just the ranting tone of it; I don't know.
But in your estimation of games versus engine/content sales, you are forgetting one simple factor: that developers license TGE to make games and their needs and desires (which you express and attempt to represent) are different than those who are selling and supporting a game engine. If you make a good game, regardless of the engine, and it catches on like wildfire, it won't matter whether it was made in TGE, C4, GameMaker, Unreal 3, or RPG Maker XP. If you are selling a game engine or an engine framework, you will have a number of support and documentation issues which you will have to face. Issues that you would not have with a game. You're comparing two different things and equating them.
==== Now, a bit on my bias on the current shelf titles out ====
I'm not quite sure what you're talking about with a "touche of 2006", but most of the games that I've played this year have bit rather horribly or numbed me with their mediocrity. The 360 titles that are out are mediocre even when compared to the mediocrity of the vast majority of first-gen titles for a new system. They look pretty but I couldn't be bothered to play them for very long. Now, XBLA is a different story. Small, fun games. They may not have the bling of PDZ, but then PDZ was horribly easy in single-player and lackluster in multiplayer. It was pretty, though. Kameo was better in the fnu department. DOA4 was a fun diversion, but I still prefer the systems present in Tekken and Soul Calibur. Oblivion was better than the previous Arena games but still not my cup of tea. It was pretty, though. But I still think that Shadow of the Collossus had better art direction than any 360 title to date, and it was on a much older system with worse hardware.
Now, if you're talking PC games, there's still not a lot of fun to be had there on the retail shelves, either. F.E.A.R. was okay (and EXTREMELY AMAZING to look at). It had moments which were cool, but for the most part it didn't do it for me. Maybe I'm just jaded with the 9 million look-alike shooters which seem to have been released (though it had some good horror elements that reminded me of some parts of the Undying, which I quite enjoyed back in the day). I don't get excited by Quakes or Dooms anymore. I found Painkiller to be easy and while pretty, rather annoying. There have been some fun ones (I enjoyed Far Cry, though I felt it was derivative but pretty...I enjoyed it and felt that I had gotten my money's worth...which is quite rare nowdays). While I would like to say that I would like another AvP, I didn't really enjoy 2 much after the initial "ooh, I get to play as a face-hugger" mystique wore off--I did think that PredAliens would be more fun than they were. I haven't seen a retail MMO worth playing for longer than the included free period (and not a one has been worth the price of admission, either). Sims have been okay, but mostly with the same copycat gameplay mentality that has been going through the sim market for the last ten years. They can be pretty, yes, but I've often found that after that initial "dude, check out the opening level" fascination wears off, the games seem to rehash the gameplay from Quake 2, Rainbow 6, or Counterstrike, but do it worse. And there's a little bit of my bias.
I like games that are fun. If they look good, too. That's a bonus.
But I play a lot of games and I play with a lot of engines, which is why I asked for further information on his target audience. To point him in the right direction. If XBLA isn't it, then I need to know where he wants to be.
#16
www.youtube.com/watch?v=2rOPjGTgzrE
www.youtube.com/watch?v=2ZDAcyfpA1c
There are better videos around, but these are all I could find. TSE lighting and shadows not finished, vegetation removed due to bug.
07/12/2006 (11:35 am)
Legions demos:www.youtube.com/watch?v=2rOPjGTgzrE
www.youtube.com/watch?v=2ZDAcyfpA1c
There are better videos around, but these are all I could find. TSE lighting and shadows not finished, vegetation removed due to bug.
#18
I think its quit strange that you take for granted that i dont now how much time and it takes to complete a game. Ok maybe its because i am not so active in forums.
If you work with lot of engines you must feel that TGE/TSE need makeover ??
But the really thing i hoped for with my post was finding out some commercial games with TGE.
(Not listed in the GG gamesection)
I have seen many good looking screenshots in the forums, but i would like to see the final product.
07/12/2006 (11:47 am)
Thanks for your reply David,I think its quit strange that you take for granted that i dont now how much time and it takes to complete a game. Ok maybe its because i am not so active in forums.
If you work with lot of engines you must feel that TGE/TSE need makeover ??
But the really thing i hoped for with my post was finding out some commercial games with TGE.
(Not listed in the GG gamesection)
I have seen many good looking screenshots in the forums, but i would like to see the final product.
#20
Engine demos are mostly smoke and mirrors. They are annoying little necessitites that are mainly designed to do one (or a few) of the following:
1. Attract attention with shiny things
2. Attract attention away from things that aren't so shiny
3. Try to create the most unrealistic situation possible to prove the engine can still run (while being heavily modified and held together by duct tape and bailing wire)
The things that actually matter about an engine usually have nothing to do with how it looks, because the only game that probably comes close to shipping on an unmodified engine is Unreal Tournament 200X. It is for this reason that not everyone uses the bestest, shinyest, newest engine that gets announced.
07/12/2006 (11:57 am)
Well, once you work with engines, you start to realize what the important differences really are.Engine demos are mostly smoke and mirrors. They are annoying little necessitites that are mainly designed to do one (or a few) of the following:
1. Attract attention with shiny things
2. Attract attention away from things that aren't so shiny
3. Try to create the most unrealistic situation possible to prove the engine can still run (while being heavily modified and held together by duct tape and bailing wire)
The things that actually matter about an engine usually have nothing to do with how it looks, because the only game that probably comes close to shipping on an unmodified engine is Unreal Tournament 200X. It is for this reason that not everyone uses the bestest, shinyest, newest engine that gets announced.
Torque Owner Martin Schultz
So, if you already think TGE is cool and sufficient with it's features, then all you need to do is buy TGE plus TSE and you have a superior game engine with the very latest shader tech.
Just my 2 euro-cent. :-)