Splitting Game Development and Game Construction
by Eli McClanahan · in General Discussion · 04/02/2002 (6:09 pm) · 17 replies
I know most companies, if not all, have no idea department in the whole sense. I've found in developing my own small games for fun that when I get caught up in creating the actual game itself, I often become less thoughtful of the plot and/or the actual construction of the game.
I was wondering why not have one team that thinks up the ideas, all of which would be artists, not programmers, and then bring in the programmers and discuss their final ideas together. It reduces stress on the programmers and creates a better game.
I've talked to a lot of ex-developers about this, and they all agree that it's a good idea, and that it would work if it weren't for the fact that management pushes every dollar.
I was wondering why not have one team that thinks up the ideas, all of which would be artists, not programmers, and then bring in the programmers and discuss their final ideas together. It reduces stress on the programmers and creates a better game.
I've talked to a lot of ex-developers about this, and they all agree that it's a good idea, and that it would work if it weren't for the fact that management pushes every dollar.
#2
Most programmers I've encountered are worker personality types. They're more focused (exact and precise programming) than conceptual. It's a conflict that has, according to the people who have experience in the field that I've talked to, caused a lot of stress and unnecessary mental breakdowns in the long run.
Of course, the main problem is implementation, but that's why it's good to have at least one person with programming experience that won't be doing the programming to listen to what's going on and tell them it will be a problem. If a whole game is planned out and then given to the programmers, it just won't work. There has to a conjoining effort, not a step by step process.
04/02/2002 (7:15 pm)
The main problem I mentioned, but another is that people that go into programming generally are not artist personality types. People who deal with creativity are more adept at this sort of thing, not "builders." It's not a matter so much of whether it's getting the job done, but whether things could be better.Most programmers I've encountered are worker personality types. They're more focused (exact and precise programming) than conceptual. It's a conflict that has, according to the people who have experience in the field that I've talked to, caused a lot of stress and unnecessary mental breakdowns in the long run.
Of course, the main problem is implementation, but that's why it's good to have at least one person with programming experience that won't be doing the programming to listen to what's going on and tell them it will be a problem. If a whole game is planned out and then given to the programmers, it just won't work. There has to a conjoining effort, not a step by step process.
#3
Like in most every other arena of business and life, it's good to have different views when creating something.
Unless you're working in the games industry, I guess it's best to lay off the "it's best" statements. Heck, even I don't do that...much
As for the personalities, look at most of the people who have been creating projects on GarageGames. I can't even think of one project held together by an artist. All coders... does that say anything?
04/02/2002 (7:35 pm)
I'd rather not discuss the "best" ways to do anything unless we actually have the experience to talk about it.Like in most every other arena of business and life, it's good to have different views when creating something.
Unless you're working in the games industry, I guess it's best to lay off the "it's best" statements. Heck, even I don't do that...much
As for the personalities, look at most of the people who have been creating projects on GarageGames. I can't even think of one project held together by an artist. All coders... does that say anything?
#4
My reason for mentioning it is the experience of game developers, whom I interviewed a while back for a project. So, yes, there is reason to think about it - they agreed with it and suggested it without my even mentioning it.
04/02/2002 (7:53 pm)
It just shows that there aren't any artists heading anything, much less working for them. You can't point at something that's never been done and say, "If it isn't there it must not be worth trying."My reason for mentioning it is the experience of game developers, whom I interviewed a while back for a project. So, yes, there is reason to think about it - they agreed with it and suggested it without my even mentioning it.
#5
Maybe the industry vets who are around GarageGames (including the GG staff) could share their opinion on it?
04/02/2002 (8:50 pm)
I could say the same thing about any idea. Doesn't have to be true...Maybe the industry vets who are around GarageGames (including the GG staff) could share their opinion on it?
#6
The route that I've taken with Project: Warfare pretty much follows those steps. I came up with the initial "damn, it would be cool to make a modern warfare game with this engine" when I first started playing T2. One day, out of the blue, I just started writing out the design document. I then formed a team of people who were interested in implementing the design into an actual game. I continue to work the design out to this day, often taking a broad or general idea to the rest of the team and opening up the floor, as in "how do you think this should work?" There has to be someone with the final say (that would be me, the producer) so that we come to some conclusion.
I really don't think there's a need for an entire seperate team of people just to create the design. Maybe you just need some people on the team who are good at designing. But first and foremost, you need something to start with...you can't just say "let's make a game."
04/02/2002 (9:03 pm)
I think design is one part artistic, one part logic. And a game is one part design, one part implementation. Sure, everybody has game ideas..."that would be cool if there were a game where you play blah blah and blah blah blah." Sure, but what else? It takes a lot more than just an idea. You have to take that idea, turn it into a design, then implement that design.The route that I've taken with Project: Warfare pretty much follows those steps. I came up with the initial "damn, it would be cool to make a modern warfare game with this engine" when I first started playing T2. One day, out of the blue, I just started writing out the design document. I then formed a team of people who were interested in implementing the design into an actual game. I continue to work the design out to this day, often taking a broad or general idea to the rest of the team and opening up the floor, as in "how do you think this should work?" There has to be someone with the final say (that would be me, the producer) so that we come to some conclusion.
I really don't think there's a need for an entire seperate team of people just to create the design. Maybe you just need some people on the team who are good at designing. But first and foremost, you need something to start with...you can't just say "let's make a game."
#7
The lines are becoming blurred, and I know of many talented folks, who while have a specialty, are not afraid to get their hands dirty across the "divide."
It would be better to start thining of everyone as an individual with a unique collection of skills that they bring to the table.
One does not need to be a programmer to understand proper software development practices, and it is unwise to assume that artists as a group are ignorant of software development processes.
Likewise, coders need to understand the needs of the visual design of a game as they relate to the game design, the gameplay, and the marketing strategy.
In the industry, we work long hours side by side, and it wouls be naive to assume that such a division does or should exist.
Also, good project managment skills are usually the deciding factor which determines project success/failure. One needs to know a bit about software development, but need not be a coder to manage.
Matt wrote:
I can't even think of one project held together by an artist. All coders... does that say anything?
--
This is a site that revolves mainly around the sale, support, and use of source code. It does not suprise me that there are more programmers than artists here.
Good games are made by talented people working on a good idea. The idea has to be good, the implementation has to be good, and the game has to have a market.
A person can have a good idea, but a solid team must be able to implement it. The process of design is as as much applied problem solving as it is inspiration. I think there is value in dividing the design phase into brainstorming and problem solving sessions (or sub teams) but I do not see the need to divide it up between artists and programmers.
The idea that an artist cannot be a good problem solver is a generalization that while commeonly percieved to be truth, in my experience, is not true.
The idea that programmers are not visionaries is something that I have also found to be false.
You need both visionaries and problem solvers, and finding a balance of both is important, but to draw that line between artists and programmers would be, in my experience, a silly way to determine the personality makeup of a team....
04/02/2002 (9:29 pm)
I think it would be better to stop thinking of a division between artists and programmers and start thinking of everyone as a game developer. The lines are becoming blurred, and I know of many talented folks, who while have a specialty, are not afraid to get their hands dirty across the "divide."
It would be better to start thining of everyone as an individual with a unique collection of skills that they bring to the table.
One does not need to be a programmer to understand proper software development practices, and it is unwise to assume that artists as a group are ignorant of software development processes.
Likewise, coders need to understand the needs of the visual design of a game as they relate to the game design, the gameplay, and the marketing strategy.
In the industry, we work long hours side by side, and it wouls be naive to assume that such a division does or should exist.
Also, good project managment skills are usually the deciding factor which determines project success/failure. One needs to know a bit about software development, but need not be a coder to manage.
Matt wrote:
I can't even think of one project held together by an artist. All coders... does that say anything?
--
This is a site that revolves mainly around the sale, support, and use of source code. It does not suprise me that there are more programmers than artists here.
Good games are made by talented people working on a good idea. The idea has to be good, the implementation has to be good, and the game has to have a market.
A person can have a good idea, but a solid team must be able to implement it. The process of design is as as much applied problem solving as it is inspiration. I think there is value in dividing the design phase into brainstorming and problem solving sessions (or sub teams) but I do not see the need to divide it up between artists and programmers.
The idea that an artist cannot be a good problem solver is a generalization that while commeonly percieved to be truth, in my experience, is not true.
The idea that programmers are not visionaries is something that I have also found to be false.
You need both visionaries and problem solvers, and finding a balance of both is important, but to draw that line between artists and programmers would be, in my experience, a silly way to determine the personality makeup of a team....
#8
From what I've seen in this industry, and in others, neither programmers nor artists are inherently better at "being in charge", and both have to learn totally new skillsets when they find themselves in management positions. Skillsets that are woefully lacking in the college coursework for both careers.
Dividing the "think tank" from the production team doesn't strike me as particular useful in the short term. In the long term, though, that is the definition of Research & Development. The trick with R&D is being able to afford it, and then being able to convert it into something you can sell for a profit. It's not like someone can simply have a great idea and then hand it off to an engineer or whatever and suddenly you have a whole product.
Probably more of a tangeantal aside...oh, well...
-David
Samu Games
04/02/2002 (9:46 pm)
FWIW, Steve Reid is CEO (or whatever title it has there) of Red Storm, and he is an artist by trade. I attended a very informative session of his at the GDC.From what I've seen in this industry, and in others, neither programmers nor artists are inherently better at "being in charge", and both have to learn totally new skillsets when they find themselves in management positions. Skillsets that are woefully lacking in the college coursework for both careers.
Dividing the "think tank" from the production team doesn't strike me as particular useful in the short term. In the long term, though, that is the definition of Research & Development. The trick with R&D is being able to afford it, and then being able to convert it into something you can sell for a profit. It's not like someone can simply have a great idea and then hand it off to an engineer or whatever and suddenly you have a whole product.
Probably more of a tangeantal aside...oh, well...
-David
Samu Games
#9
Translated to Joe: "Doesn't matter if you're a programmer or artist" not "Programmers are better"
04/02/2002 (9:48 pm)
That comment wasn't supporting that one is better than the other, just dispelling that artists would be better suited than programmers.Translated to Joe: "Doesn't matter if you're a programmer or artist" not "Programmers are better"
#10
This is a pretty bold leap and a weak argument.
Based on my experience, I have found out that artists in general are better at problem solving and design, but I would not go so far as to draw any conclusions from this experience.
Design in general is not all intuition and creativity, nor is it applied problem solving. It is a mix of both, and I personally have found most artists to be more well rounded in general, and as such much better in general at problem solving and design problems.
Additionally, the training one receives in art school is generally aimed at solving design problems, and as such, has provided the average educated artist with better tools for attacking design.
Based on my experience, I would have to agree that if someone were to decide to put the design in either the hands of the coders or the artists, the artists would more likley do a better job.
So, in my eyes, you did not dispell anything, but on the main point we are in agreement.
There are as many ways to attack a problem as their are problems to attack, and the makeup of a team chosen to attack said problem should be made up of people most able to atttack the problem at hand.
The team makeup should be balanced between intuitve creative types and thinking realistic types, and have a good representation of those that are worker or 'doer'.
I should point out that the thinker personality type is not always a 'doer' or worker, and not all artists out there are purely creative intuitive types. I know many very talented artists whose personality is more worker than thinker/creator.
Generalizations are not good to throw around here.
It suggests that I (or someone like me) might be a better choice for designing a game than someone else, based purely on my profession. This is a ridiculous assumption.
In general, it may very well be true that artists are better at design than programmers, but one should look at the individual, and not the general case, to determine suitability for any position on a design team and that the makeup of any design team be appropriate to attack the design problem that is presented before them.
04/02/2002 (11:55 pm)
You are trying to dispell it by presenting an argument that is based on your percpetion of the community that frequents the gargagegames forums, the ability of the people that frequent these forums to design good games, and a conclusion that is based on a the assumption that the community here at garagegames is representative of the game development community as a whole. This is a pretty bold leap and a weak argument.
Based on my experience, I have found out that artists in general are better at problem solving and design, but I would not go so far as to draw any conclusions from this experience.
Design in general is not all intuition and creativity, nor is it applied problem solving. It is a mix of both, and I personally have found most artists to be more well rounded in general, and as such much better in general at problem solving and design problems.
Additionally, the training one receives in art school is generally aimed at solving design problems, and as such, has provided the average educated artist with better tools for attacking design.
Based on my experience, I would have to agree that if someone were to decide to put the design in either the hands of the coders or the artists, the artists would more likley do a better job.
So, in my eyes, you did not dispell anything, but on the main point we are in agreement.
There are as many ways to attack a problem as their are problems to attack, and the makeup of a team chosen to attack said problem should be made up of people most able to atttack the problem at hand.
The team makeup should be balanced between intuitve creative types and thinking realistic types, and have a good representation of those that are worker or 'doer'.
I should point out that the thinker personality type is not always a 'doer' or worker, and not all artists out there are purely creative intuitive types. I know many very talented artists whose personality is more worker than thinker/creator.
Generalizations are not good to throw around here.
It suggests that I (or someone like me) might be a better choice for designing a game than someone else, based purely on my profession. This is a ridiculous assumption.
In general, it may very well be true that artists are better at design than programmers, but one should look at the individual, and not the general case, to determine suitability for any position on a design team and that the makeup of any design team be appropriate to attack the design problem that is presented before them.
#11
Unless I say something, don't feel free to make assumptions on what I might say about a different question. I did not say, nor did I imply that artists or programmers would be better suited to any task.
I'd agree with you that if I said what you think I said, it'd be a bold leap and a weak arguement. Maybe that's why I didn't say it...
04/03/2002 (12:46 am)
I agree, generalizations are not good to use but neither are assumptions.Unless I say something, don't feel free to make assumptions on what I might say about a different question. I did not say, nor did I imply that artists or programmers would be better suited to any task.
I'd agree with you that if I said what you think I said, it'd be a bold leap and a weak arguement. Maybe that's why I didn't say it...
#12
Fortunately, a lot of people in the industry seem to be well-rounded most of the time, although I've seen a lot of potentially good ideas go down the tube from a lack of creativity. :(
04/22/2002 (12:30 pm)
The basic point I'm getting at is the base planning for character models and plot. As far as creating the game itself, movement and possibility-wise, that's just out of an artist's hands. I'm talking about things like races, plots, things like that. Of course, bringing in someone that has no clue to the extents of which programming can work is just foolish. I have an artistic personality myself, but I understand the limitations of game dynamics.Fortunately, a lot of people in the industry seem to be well-rounded most of the time, although I've seen a lot of potentially good ideas go down the tube from a lack of creativity. :(
#13
Many people still have a proffession (eg artist, programmer)and learn management skills on the side. As a student in project and company management I can tell you that it can be very difficult to learn management skills. "Doing it on the side" can be viewed as Jimmy Jones barging in on the forum stating he want's to make a game (see the community newsletter). Some of you might have been very succesfull on learning management on the side, but even Jimmy Jones might pull his game off after all. (okay, okay, I eggarerated a little :-))
As to why there are so few artists on GG: It's not interesting enough to become a member. I think if you were to get everybodies team listing, there would be many people that are not GG members. And most of them would be artists. I work in a 3 member team and I'm the only GG member. One teammember is an artist/programmer. His programming skills are limited to Delphi so GG isn't very interesting to him. But he can design stuff well and has knowledge of programming limitations.
The 3rd member is a Database and Tool programmer. He has very little interest in designing/making the games themselves but likes to to all the other stuff that we game programmers sometimes find boring/difficult like making editting tools and databases. Both are useful team members but not GG material.
Maybe the GG community has to be changed a bit in order to attract more artists and the sort. Ideas anyone?
04/23/2002 (12:15 am)
Wouldn't it be better to bring a third kind of member in your team? A project manager. These people are trained across multiple platforms. They understand the limitaions of both artists and programmers. They have learned to spot problems very early and prevent them (rather than solve them). In general, they act as star-trekkish universal translaters. They make a multi disciplinary team communicate well and work together. Many people still have a proffession (eg artist, programmer)and learn management skills on the side. As a student in project and company management I can tell you that it can be very difficult to learn management skills. "Doing it on the side" can be viewed as Jimmy Jones barging in on the forum stating he want's to make a game (see the community newsletter). Some of you might have been very succesfull on learning management on the side, but even Jimmy Jones might pull his game off after all. (okay, okay, I eggarerated a little :-))
As to why there are so few artists on GG: It's not interesting enough to become a member. I think if you were to get everybodies team listing, there would be many people that are not GG members. And most of them would be artists. I work in a 3 member team and I'm the only GG member. One teammember is an artist/programmer. His programming skills are limited to Delphi so GG isn't very interesting to him. But he can design stuff well and has knowledge of programming limitations.
The 3rd member is a Database and Tool programmer. He has very little interest in designing/making the games themselves but likes to to all the other stuff that we game programmers sometimes find boring/difficult like making editting tools and databases. Both are useful team members but not GG material.
Maybe the GG community has to be changed a bit in order to attract more artists and the sort. Ideas anyone?
#14
(That's one side of things you may consider at least.)
04/23/2002 (11:15 am)
I decided to help out in any creative means I could just from the hope of getting one of my ideas into a game. I have a lot of game ideas, but as I'm not a programmer, I have no means of incorporating those ideas. Therefore, GG was attractive in that respect. :) (That's one side of things you may consider at least.)
#15
I don't think that anyone who just "walks in" on game development without programming or art experience, and puts the "project lead" crown on will be very useful to the team. Obviously, this won't happen in the professional part of the games industry but I've seen it done dozens of times in indie game development and a few times on projects I've contributed to.
Just look at the successful indie projects (early Counter-Strike, Day of Defeat, other mods/games) and you'll see a strong trend of the project lead being an artist or programmer contributing to the project while leading it. I can't even think of one successful mod or indie game that this wasn't the case. I think this allows for the lead to understand the problems the other members of the team are going through, but also makes them actually productive for the team. Sure, arranging meetings and helping write the design doc is nice... but that's really not something that requires specialized talent. Why not have the lead plan meetings and help code the game?
Me: 2, Birds: 0.
04/23/2002 (11:27 am)
I want a project leader who is organized, decent at writing, understanding of the limitations, and also understanding of the workers. *cough* I guess that's why I'm running my own team soon ;pI don't think that anyone who just "walks in" on game development without programming or art experience, and puts the "project lead" crown on will be very useful to the team. Obviously, this won't happen in the professional part of the games industry but I've seen it done dozens of times in indie game development and a few times on projects I've contributed to.
Just look at the successful indie projects (early Counter-Strike, Day of Defeat, other mods/games) and you'll see a strong trend of the project lead being an artist or programmer contributing to the project while leading it. I can't even think of one successful mod or indie game that this wasn't the case. I think this allows for the lead to understand the problems the other members of the team are going through, but also makes them actually productive for the team. Sure, arranging meetings and helping write the design doc is nice... but that's really not something that requires specialized talent. Why not have the lead plan meetings and help code the game?
Me: 2, Birds: 0.
#16
Very very true. A project manager should have an excellent feel for the project and share the other team members love for the game. A manager who just takes on the leadership role won't cut it. But a good project manager can make a great addition to a team. There's much more work involved than just scheduling meetings.
- finding investors and funders for the project.
- fighting off the "big boss" who wants to see results.
- keeping team members enthousiast.
- accuiring workspace and tools.
- setting up promotion for the game.
- make sure deadlines are met.
- preventing/solving problems.
- etc.
Most of these activities do need specialized talent. On bigger projects, it can almost be a full-time job.
That's probabely because the average project manager has a 60-70 hour work week (something which I am NOT planning to have after graduation). They don't have time to lead an indy team efficient besides there regular projects. Indy developement management isn't a full time job (not even part time I guess) so getting your own project manager for the team is also very difficult.
As the project grows and advances, he'll have less and less time to code/design. You better make sure there's some is ready to fill up this gap or the manager is going to end up doing both things in a rush. Definately a bad thing is he does.
In short: Get a project manager if the team/project is big enough. If you decide to do it yourself, don't be surprised how much time management activities take up.
Good luck on your team Matt :-)
04/24/2002 (12:20 am)
Actually I was referring more to the "regular" game developement industry rather than the indy developement teams. Indy teams are usually smaller and there's much less management work to be done on indy teams.Quote:I don't think that anyone who just "walks in" on game development without programming or art experience, and puts the "project lead" crown on will be very useful to the team.
Very very true. A project manager should have an excellent feel for the project and share the other team members love for the game. A manager who just takes on the leadership role won't cut it. But a good project manager can make a great addition to a team. There's much more work involved than just scheduling meetings.
- finding investors and funders for the project.
- fighting off the "big boss" who wants to see results.
- keeping team members enthousiast.
- accuiring workspace and tools.
- setting up promotion for the game.
- make sure deadlines are met.
- preventing/solving problems.
- etc.
Most of these activities do need specialized talent. On bigger projects, it can almost be a full-time job.
Quote:I can't even think of one successful mod or indie game that this wasn't the case.
That's probabely because the average project manager has a 60-70 hour work week (something which I am NOT planning to have after graduation). They don't have time to lead an indy team efficient besides there regular projects. Indy developement management isn't a full time job (not even part time I guess) so getting your own project manager for the team is also very difficult.
Quote:Why not have the lead plan meetings and help code the game?
As the project grows and advances, he'll have less and less time to code/design. You better make sure there's some is ready to fill up this gap or the manager is going to end up doing both things in a rush. Definately a bad thing is he does.
In short: Get a project manager if the team/project is big enough. If you decide to do it yourself, don't be surprised how much time management activities take up.
Good luck on your team Matt :-)
#17
Along with the same, some nice tips and tools would help manage things in a better way. There are so many tools as well that help to this and make things easier and faster.
I used few tools though would like to share a great resource that I came across which even helped me to better manage project and time in a hassle free way.
http://www.replicon.com/olp/time-management-software.aspx
11/14/2014 (4:24 am)
There could be designers, developers and managers in your team though for the project manager, I find the best way would be to get the most out of the team and deploy a great project management strategy.Along with the same, some nice tips and tools would help manage things in a better way. There are so many tools as well that help to this and make things easier and faster.
I used few tools though would like to share a great resource that I came across which even helped me to better manage project and time in a hassle free way.
http://www.replicon.com/olp/time-management-software.aspx
Torque Owner Matt W
Artists would be generous design-wise (possibly, too generous) when it comes to coming up with ideas, and coders would be more realistic (possibly, limiting)
I don't see why a mix wouldn't be the best idea. At least someone with programming and creative knowledge.