RPG system : Classes vs Skills

#21 A class based system protects the developer from imbalance in the system. Taking the Morrowind lockpick/alteration magic example - in a pure class system this would be irrelevant, since the players wishing to be a thief would not have any option and would be stuck with lockpicking.

A skill based system exposes these balance problems, and forces the developer to either leave them in, as Bethesda did, or fix them. The imbalances are not always obvious until it's too late, and are not always easy to solve. So while a skill based system can provide far more flexibility and creativity, it's much more difficult to implement safely. Also, a skill based system is unfriendly to the uneducated - a veteran player will know how best to exploit the system, while a novice will not know exactly how all these skills operate and may choose unworkable combinations.

Some developers have attempted to create a hybrid of the two - Cryptic's City of Heroes and Turbine's Asheron's Call 2 (now shut down) are examples of this. You choose an Archetype(CoH) or profession, and within that you can choose trees or collections of skills and abilities which are then customizable. This provides some of the creativity and flexibility of choosing your skills, without exposing the game so much to the imbalance problems of everyone having access to EVERY possible combination.

City of Heroes is also a good example of a pure skill based system failing. During early Beta, they had a skill based system where any character could have any combination of powers they so chose. This system was entirely scrapped and Archetypes implemented in its place, when it became so difficult to balance that it would have needlessly prolonged release. Also, many players were choosing combinations that made normal gameplay impossible because they didn't understand the mechanics.

#22 Ok one thing I've noticed over the last year is that the young players "WANT" yes want to get character up fast as possible to DamageDealer class.

So class and Skill based games both have problems here, Class based games is good till you get to that lvl where it takes longer to get the next higher lvl, and skill based games is in the same boat. They just get bored when they have to grind for hours on end to get that next step up.

Some games have content to kill the boredom, others sad to say it start getting changed around (eg. XP/skill point gain rates) to keep players going.

Yes Class has more content(character history) possiblites, but in PVP you'll get the lower lvl guys b1tch1ng about being killed by higher lvl ones, and yelling character classes are bugged, etc...

Skill has less chance of lower players dieing to higher, but still has the same problem the young player will complain about being disadvantaged againts longer playing players.

So it's a real tricky one to get right, might have to look into how your going to generate characters first(the traveller ideas good, simular to EVE online, but better), then how the characters advance during game play(skill or class based?), and also look into the player group your aiming for and how long you want to keep players playing it.

And yes you could as said above do both, but just remember the target group. RisingForce Online uses this system of both class and skill/magic advancement, but have a large group of young players that yell as some as they have a problem, and the Game support team drop everything to fix an "none" bug only to stuff up other classes and skills in doing so. Just an insight of how bad things can get.

I'd personal select Class based system for character generation like Traveller, LiveSteel, Aliens RPG's had done and then move characters over to skill based system for the rest of the game. And to test it do beta with Max'd out characters (end game type) to sort out balances in skill and base character systems. Then go back and sort out 1/2 way characters and then finaly start test on mix of lvls. EVE Online is a great example of an basic class to skill based system, note the to get news you have the meet requirements.

EVE Online uses;
4 races
2 genders and 2 social classes per race (primary stat's and stat. changes and a few basic skills)
3 career paths per gender/social class each career has 2 layers of career tree each with 3 subcareers (skills gained here)

{note: new skills require character stat's(eg. Int+Wis. and sometime other skill lvl's) and have to be brought}

RF Online uses;
3 races
3 or 4 primary classes (primary skills/magic/abilities given)
LVL 30 class change, 1-2 character classes per tree (new classes magic/spells, item & abilities, note only if stay in class tree{see below})
LVL 40 class change 1-3 character classes per tree (as above)

{note: skills trees are Melee/Ranged/Magic [note new magic spells have to be brought or found] all characters get access to all basic skills, expert and above are limited to that class of character, but characters at LVL30 can instead of going on in own class tree, can change to another tree. This allows them to open up that classes skill tree plus the primary classes skills. But at the cost of gaining any Class special skills, they'll still get class bonuses and items.
This can be done again, eg. Warrior goes ranger gets elite skills in both melee and range, but decides to change to magic at a cost of $, now he has access to magic tree above the basic spell skills. But in doing so he loses the ability to use all Ranger tree skills above Basic. So this stops players build umber skilled characters.}

Just a few things to think about.

PS;
I've been thinking about this fo ages and only now starting to get a clearer view of it.

#23 One of the ideas my team is toying around with is a special system of passive skills based largely on environmental experience and not on experience with an object. For example in our game, it is possible to explore the world via GTA, join the army, a gang or a variety of other organizations. If for example you join the army after completing boot camp you would receive a passive accuracy skill or a passive sniper skill which could later be used if you chose to leave the army and join a different group. Skills based on training and "life" experience would be used to make an impact on players ability overall.

Having this system would also allow a characters overall attributes to remain close to that of a new players, while maintaining a high enough benefit to the more experienced player. Our system then tags the players four most commonly called passive abilities and creates a player class.

So far it is working however when we start implamenting it on a wide scale it may prove more difficult.

#24 This question has been going on for as long as I can remember. At least back to Circle and ROM MUD's.

Class based systems have always been more popular.

1) they protect you from gimping yourself.
2) they are easier to understand.
3) they allow you to judge another players capabilities far easier.
4) they make planning group mechanics easier.

Skill based systems offer more flexibility and freedom for characters.

UNLESS: some skill tracks turn out to be just plain better than others. At that point, those effectively become the classes, and the other choices lead down the road to perceived (or actual) gimpdom and eventual character deletion.

I think it takes a mature and involved player base to really handle skill based systems. It also takes a lot more work dev side to keep the skills and all the tracks and choices reasonably balanced. Personally, I prefer the class based approach, with some hybrids thrown in for flexibility.

#25 I think you are all going about this the wrong way it is not a question of classes versus skills it is a question of free form character development versus structured character development. Your game can literally be anywhere along this spectrum.

In my game I have classes yes but they are each broken up into a set of abilities. Each ability allows you to learn a set of skills and grants your character the ability to do something special related specially to that class. The rouge ability called precision fighting style lets you target a specific locations on an enemy. The effectiveness is based on a comparison of your accuracy against the targets evasion. It also lets you learn a number of skills related to accuracy.

My game lets you mix and match a little but still adheres to a set scheme with each piece you take.



I could not agree more that you need to have a way of changing what class or skills you use. However it should not be totally easy or free to do. In my game I have a special Item set that lets you forget an ability and it's related skills. Then depending on the rareness and power of the item you gain back a percentage of the total xp you invested in that ability and it's related skills.


A strict class is not always an answer to avoiding getting yourself gimped. NOTHING CAN PROTECT YOU FROM GIMPING YOURSELF if you are determined enough. lol after all in some games certain classes come pre gimped. ;)

#26 I used to play on a MUD threshold-rpg.com if anyone is interested. Thgey handled this weel and I am mimicing them with my game, you chose youre guild, then there was two calss systems applied to you play class and guild class. On top of that they had a skill system for both the various player skills, and then a superset for youere guild skills.

It worked quite well

The_Trusted_One

#27 If you want balance, then simply have the skills they learn work together.

ie: a warrior who wants to learn magic will only be able to learn magic centered around his combat, like str buffs, weapon buffs, better shots etc.... but because he is a warrior he can never cast Fireballs or Lightning bolts etc...

if this same warrior wanted to be a healer, then he would learn the healing spells centered around combat... if there is such a thing. at a lesser rate than a true healer.

a magician who wanted to learn combat would then have spells to create magic weapons/shields/armor...etc that were not as good as the created ones, but worked for him.

In a class system you would do this kind of like the old Prestige classes. Where the Arcane archer (a slight mix of ranger/mage) could make his arrows have fire/cold etc bonuses.

just my humble opinion

#28 I always loved playing old pnp RPG games with my friends. It was always fun when the ego centered barbarian of the group had destroyed the mightiest of enemies only to have almost drowned because he didn't know how to swim. Thank god for that harmless priest chick who pulled him out and revived his breath, eh?

So, what's the point of the story? In a good RPG, player X might know how to swim, but what about his character? Does it know - anything...or everything...or nothing? What do you know? Now, the ultimate question, how do you know what you know? Did you pick up a bat and automaticly know how to smash a homerun just right, or did you start riding your bike in a wheelie off the mark?! I honestly hate it when my X-miner is one level away from doing anything with almost-ultimate-metal X AND his wizardly butt still can't carry a shield and sword, though he knows everything - and I mean everything - about smacking metal with a hammer with stunning accuracy.

Now, which am I debating? ;)

I'll tell you - neither! Why not try something new?
- Ronixus

#29 Interesting Conversation. I have been a huge fan of freeform based skill advancement systems since Ultima Online. My first encounter with classes outside D&D was with Everquest, where you were shoe horned into a role (absolutely hated it, but loved the gameworld). The most unique system I saw was the one from Asherons call, which was freeform and level based, and you were able to raise skills literally after every kill if you could afford it.

I guess the biggest issue with class based design , is it forces you down a path the designer thinks you should go. While this would make development easier, it takes away choice for the player. The biggest complaint that I usually see for skill based freefrom systems is that its too hard to develop and balance. I personally think you can have a skill based freeform system if you design it right from the get go (Its what I am using in my game).

I feel it is more important to offer choice to the player, than to restrict their character development. For example, if a heavy armor flamberge weilding character with high hitpoints wants to learn to cast fireball, he should have that choice. However having high strength and stamina to wear the armor and have high hit points means he wont necessarily have the highest mana pool to cast his fireball as often as say someone with a large mana pool and high mana regen. They also wont necessarily have all the synergistic skills either to truly make that fireball spell sizzle versus someone who decides to go that route.

In the end, offering choice to the player , to me, is paramount. It is what will give the game more replayability long term (like diablo 2, my all time favorite game, although it was a psuedo freeform). For the uninitiated, you can create basic templates, that guide them down a specific path if they dont fully understand all the options availible to them. For the more mature player, they have the option to build what they want.

#30 Psuedo freeform that is a good term for diablo 2 that is really what i want to acheive overall because too free form of a system in any multi player game simply seems far to chaotic to have any real feel of a real world. Where every peasant can cast a fire ball. Sure thier is nothing wrong with mixing and matching but when it is done too much a warrior using a fire ball spell just seems so common and un interesting. the more strict a class system the more interesting these charecters become when you come across them. However if you get too strict they become far too predictable and lose any interesting aspects they may have had. So i think it is best to strike a even balance between the two extremes as much as possible

#31 I typically keep class, skill, and race separate that way people can chose how they want to play. A Light elf would have high Wisdom and intellect but low strength so you could very well make an magical assassin it would just be difficult in the beginning. Classes simply gives you bonuses to skills you have, some have class only skills but thats a different subject.