Flightsim
by Andy S. · in Torque Game Engine · 01/24/2006 (9:44 am) · 12 replies
Hi everyone,
after having abandoned torque for around a year due to real-life issues, i have time again now. I have dreamt for a long time about building my own flightsim; i know this is one of the most complex apps/games one can trry to produce, but still i want to give it a shot. I am an owner of torque and i browsed the forum on info about flightsims, but all i found is very dated. Well, what i am asking here is if anyone has already done a flightsim with torque without digging into the c++ code, i mean is it possible to do only in script? Of course, only a "basic" flightmodel, nothing a la falcon 4 or lockon. I read somewhere in the forums that it's only possible in a limited way with script only....
Or do you guys think i would be better of maybe with another engine (not starting a flamewar here!)?
Here are my "requirements":
- huge terrain (atlas would be perfect i think)
- good LOD system ( I want forests, cities, airports, roads....)
- environment effects (clouds, rain, snow)
- if possible no c++ required (i know this requirement depends on what i wanna do...think of implementing the flightmodel, AI, 3d-cockpit with working gauges)
I hope to get lot's of answers/opinions...i know my project is huge, but i am not planning to release anything, this is just for my own pleasure, so for me there is no pressure whatsoever. My idea is to have a arcade-style flightsim of a harrier aircraft to fly around. And because i really suck at c++, i am looking for something where i can do most of it with just scripts.
I know for lot's of you guys with more experience or knowledge this might sound like a noob question..similar maybe to someone who tries to do an MMRPG on his own, but still given my requirements, i wonder what you think on how i should proceed. In particular i am wondering if there is maybe another engine or tool that is maybe better suited for my project.
Ok, thanks a lot already in advance ;-).
after having abandoned torque for around a year due to real-life issues, i have time again now. I have dreamt for a long time about building my own flightsim; i know this is one of the most complex apps/games one can trry to produce, but still i want to give it a shot. I am an owner of torque and i browsed the forum on info about flightsims, but all i found is very dated. Well, what i am asking here is if anyone has already done a flightsim with torque without digging into the c++ code, i mean is it possible to do only in script? Of course, only a "basic" flightmodel, nothing a la falcon 4 or lockon. I read somewhere in the forums that it's only possible in a limited way with script only....
Or do you guys think i would be better of maybe with another engine (not starting a flamewar here!)?
Here are my "requirements":
- huge terrain (atlas would be perfect i think)
- good LOD system ( I want forests, cities, airports, roads....)
- environment effects (clouds, rain, snow)
- if possible no c++ required (i know this requirement depends on what i wanna do...think of implementing the flightmodel, AI, 3d-cockpit with working gauges)
I hope to get lot's of answers/opinions...i know my project is huge, but i am not planning to release anything, this is just for my own pleasure, so for me there is no pressure whatsoever. My idea is to have a arcade-style flightsim of a harrier aircraft to fly around. And because i really suck at c++, i am looking for something where i can do most of it with just scripts.
I know for lot's of you guys with more experience or knowledge this might sound like a noob question..similar maybe to someone who tries to do an MMRPG on his own, but still given my requirements, i wonder what you think on how i should proceed. In particular i am wondering if there is maybe another engine or tool that is maybe better suited for my project.
Ok, thanks a lot already in advance ;-).
#2
http://www.garagegames.com/mg/snapshot/view.php?qid=980
http://www.airaceonline.com/
Steve
01/24/2006 (10:04 am)
Might want to look at this link also. It's done with Torque:http://www.garagegames.com/mg/snapshot/view.php?qid=980
http://www.airaceonline.com/
Steve
#3
@badguy: so your main point against using a script-only solution would be that a "real" flight model based on realtime computation of lift, drag and so on is just not possible with script only? If so, what are the issues...which support is lacking to model an airplane?
Your project sounds very interesting, can you tell a bit more about it? and maybe even show on or two screenshots ;-)?
Airraceonline looks also very promising, specially that it's done in torque. But looks like the flight model is done in c++ and not script only, at least they say that a new physics engine is built in....anyway a project i have to watch ;-).
01/24/2006 (11:25 am)
Wow thanks for the fast answers ;-)!@badguy: so your main point against using a script-only solution would be that a "real" flight model based on realtime computation of lift, drag and so on is just not possible with script only? If so, what are the issues...which support is lacking to model an airplane?
Your project sounds very interesting, can you tell a bit more about it? and maybe even show on or two screenshots ;-)?
Airraceonline looks also very promising, specially that it's done in torque. But looks like the flight model is done in c++ and not script only, at least they say that a new physics engine is built in....anyway a project i have to watch ;-).
#4
to simulate like flaps and the forces generated from them is not doable in script as the flying vehicle does not utilize flaps and such.
there is lift and drag but it is all based on the center of mass only.
plus there are some hardcoded constraints on the flying vehicle that would not exist in a normal airplane.
so basically you can make use of the already exposed script variables and that is where it ends.
you can make a fun flying vehicle but as for simulation no.
my project i'm basically targetting a ww2 style plane and flight model
currently I support Jane's J3* model format just so I have some planes to fly.
there is a whole mod community that is still somewhat alive 6 years later so there is some access to art.
I plan on making a fresh new model format once I get it off the ground and can request some art.
basically I'm using ODE to model a flight and physics model.
currently we have a nice terrain (lod + dynamic patch's) currently supporting real world files of terrain.
Im not doing the terrain so I dont have all the goods on it.
we got basic mission loading and a simple skybox.
no weather.
networking is coded and now designing the dataflow
once that is done we will be able to fly around and shoot each other down.
(still have to do a weapons system :)
that is about where its at. it's only been about a month and
01/24/2006 (11:44 am)
Well..to simulate like flaps and the forces generated from them is not doable in script as the flying vehicle does not utilize flaps and such.
there is lift and drag but it is all based on the center of mass only.
plus there are some hardcoded constraints on the flying vehicle that would not exist in a normal airplane.
so basically you can make use of the already exposed script variables and that is where it ends.
you can make a fun flying vehicle but as for simulation no.
my project i'm basically targetting a ww2 style plane and flight model
currently I support Jane's J3* model format just so I have some planes to fly.
there is a whole mod community that is still somewhat alive 6 years later so there is some access to art.
I plan on making a fresh new model format once I get it off the ground and can request some art.
basically I'm using ODE to model a flight and physics model.
currently we have a nice terrain (lod + dynamic patch's) currently supporting real world files of terrain.
Im not doing the terrain so I dont have all the goods on it.
we got basic mission loading and a simple skybox.
no weather.
networking is coded and now designing the dataflow
once that is done we will be able to fly around and shoot each other down.
(still have to do a weapons system :)
that is about where its at. it's only been about a month and
#5
hm i think i have to see what is exposed to script to decide if i go with torque or not. Without flaps and such seems to be a bit a drawback for me...i will see.
I am not a good coder at all, so i think developping an own engine is totally out of reach for me, but i think i am looking into other engines too that offer some "required" features already. have you also considered other enignes? which ones? and was the main reason to develop one of your own because you have not found a suitable one?
01/24/2006 (12:08 pm)
Wow sounds very cool what you have so far...in only a month ;-). I'm also a big fan of the old jane's titles...still love them ;-). WW2 fighters i liked a lot, even tough the FM was not too realistic (i'm a real life pilot, so i am picky ;-)).hm i think i have to see what is exposed to script to decide if i go with torque or not. Without flaps and such seems to be a bit a drawback for me...i will see.
I am not a good coder at all, so i think developping an own engine is totally out of reach for me, but i think i am looking into other engines too that offer some "required" features already. have you also considered other enignes? which ones? and was the main reason to develop one of your own because you have not found a suitable one?
#6
that is cool, I will def get you a copy once its more fun and see what you think of the flight.
having 0 xp flying a plane other than in games I fear that will be my biggest drawback :)
My biggest reason for homebrewing it was the challenge of the code.
then after that the availability of flight sim type engines available within my budget
(I wasnt able to find one)
torque is a good engine and all but pretty heavy for what I intend.
and then having to rework the flight handling and logic would have been like starting from scratch.
coding up the basic's was pretty trivial.
it currently runs in linux and windows.
(features get coded in linux then patched (when necessary) for winblows :)
supports dynamic module loading which is currently used for resource object loading (objects like j3* plane and building support) gameplay from modules is to come later, includes a decent resource manager that includes instancing.
full texture support thru everything but jpeg and gif.
the font support is nice as its using bitmapped fonts.
the scenegraph design is pretty tight.
everything is rendered in one place so its a submission process. which is nice for porting to different renderers.... if some crazy bastard wants to port it to DX it will be easy.
I have no intention of doing so..
input support is nice, currently supports 1 joystick of any type. (heh a wheel if you want)
some of this stuff is incomplete but its all working.
I just made the prop animation HaCk this weekend .. which was fun. now the prop's turn.
I'll get to flaps and landing gear animations sometime I just dont wanna piss around with this j3* file for to long.
its Ugly. so Im doing other stuff then when Im farther along ill develop an exporter for whatever tool the artists are using.
Eventually due to the dynamics of this engine. It can probably be an sdk at some point
at the very least easy to mod. but .. that is a very distant from this point.
if you find any decent free or next to it engines that support some type of flight model let me know.
01/24/2006 (1:31 pm)
A real pilot huh?that is cool, I will def get you a copy once its more fun and see what you think of the flight.
having 0 xp flying a plane other than in games I fear that will be my biggest drawback :)
My biggest reason for homebrewing it was the challenge of the code.
then after that the availability of flight sim type engines available within my budget
(I wasnt able to find one)
torque is a good engine and all but pretty heavy for what I intend.
and then having to rework the flight handling and logic would have been like starting from scratch.
coding up the basic's was pretty trivial.
it currently runs in linux and windows.
(features get coded in linux then patched (when necessary) for winblows :)
supports dynamic module loading which is currently used for resource object loading (objects like j3* plane and building support) gameplay from modules is to come later, includes a decent resource manager that includes instancing.
full texture support thru everything but jpeg and gif.
the font support is nice as its using bitmapped fonts.
the scenegraph design is pretty tight.
everything is rendered in one place so its a submission process. which is nice for porting to different renderers.... if some crazy bastard wants to port it to DX it will be easy.
I have no intention of doing so..
input support is nice, currently supports 1 joystick of any type. (heh a wheel if you want)
some of this stuff is incomplete but its all working.
I just made the prop animation HaCk this weekend .. which was fun. now the prop's turn.
I'll get to flaps and landing gear animations sometime I just dont wanna piss around with this j3* file for to long.
its Ugly. so Im doing other stuff then when Im farther along ill develop an exporter for whatever tool the artists are using.
Eventually due to the dynamics of this engine. It can probably be an sdk at some point
at the very least easy to mod. but .. that is a very distant from this point.
if you find any decent free or next to it engines that support some type of flight model let me know.
#7
I dont know what Kind if licensing is acceptable for your situation but
this is a pretty robust solution with alot of top dogs on it.
aside from the licensing this would take all the fun out of it for me.
but its cool none the less.
01/24/2006 (2:00 pm)
I did fail to mention I've briefly looked at www.flightgear.org/I dont know what Kind if licensing is acceptable for your situation but
this is a pretty robust solution with alot of top dogs on it.
aside from the licensing this would take all the fun out of it for me.
but its cool none the less.
#8
You might want to take a look at the datablock "FlyingVehicleData" to help you get started. You can find more information on it in the TDN (Torque Developer Network).
Edit:You might find this thread helpful:
www.garagegames.com/mg/forums/result.thread.php?qt=21459
01/24/2006 (3:03 pm)
Andy,You might want to take a look at the datablock "FlyingVehicleData" to help you get started. You can find more information on it in the TDN (Torque Developer Network).
Edit:You might find this thread helpful:
www.garagegames.com/mg/forums/result.thread.php?qt=21459
#9
01/26/2006 (6:34 am)
I'm not sure if you really do yourself a favour if you use the Harrier... Depends on how detailed you want to implement a VTOL A/C I guess, but maybe try a "normal" jet first.
#11
About x-plane i was also thinking, i have also done some stuff in FS2004, but the flightmodel in FS is not very realistic, it's for example really hard to make an aircraft stall and spin like a real plane would do. But some addons like the ones from pmdg or the fantastic atr from flight one are very very good. They fly more or less after the numbers in the original peformance tables, and you can tune almost every switch like in the real plane.
Thinking of a modern airplane (fighter jet or airliner), i tought maybe a simplified flightmodel could be used and it would still feel realistic. Because these planes also have computers built in which protect the flight envelope, so a pilot cannot put the plane into a stall or make it spin (as long as everything works normal of course)...so also in the real planes, the pilot somehow "uses a simplified flight model", because the plane takes care of the critical stuff itself.
01/26/2006 (12:56 pm)
Yes true, the harrier is for sure not the easiest aircraft to simulate. Thinking of moveable engine nozzles that have of course grat impact on the whole flight model... Maybe i have this idea in my head because this aircraft fascinates me so much. But so far there is no sim which simulates a harrier ;-). About x-plane i was also thinking, i have also done some stuff in FS2004, but the flightmodel in FS is not very realistic, it's for example really hard to make an aircraft stall and spin like a real plane would do. But some addons like the ones from pmdg or the fantastic atr from flight one are very very good. They fly more or less after the numbers in the original peformance tables, and you can tune almost every switch like in the real plane.
Thinking of a modern airplane (fighter jet or airliner), i tought maybe a simplified flightmodel could be used and it would still feel realistic. Because these planes also have computers built in which protect the flight envelope, so a pilot cannot put the plane into a stall or make it spin (as long as everything works normal of course)...so also in the real planes, the pilot somehow "uses a simplified flight model", because the plane takes care of the critical stuff itself.
#12
Then in Top Gun (third part) you could unlock the Harrier, but again I'm not sure if they bothered to implement it correctly, since their whole physics seemed to be more arcade.
And last but not least, there is a Harrier Pack for the MS FS. Haven't played that one though.
01/27/2006 (12:13 am)
Actually I think there is. In Battlefield there was a mod, and as far as I remember, you could even take off vertical, but I'm not sure. Then there is/was Flying Nightmares 2 where you were meant to be able to control a Super Cobra and the Harrier, but I'm not sure what happened to it.Then in Top Gun (third part) you could unlock the Harrier, but again I'm not sure if they bothered to implement it correctly, since their whole physics seemed to be more arcade.
And last but not least, there is a Harrier Pack for the MS FS. Haven't played that one though.
Torque Owner Badguy
how encompassing your flight model will be is obviously going to be whatever support is there currently.
so you can tweak together a flying vehicle that will make you happy but it will prolly not ever be as good as a flight sim that comes to mind.
flying ai thru scripts is out of the question. (current ai)
cockpit and guages should be no trouble.
lod and all that lovely stuff is already there for you.
I'm currently playing with a flight sim at home.
things are coming nicely its alot of fun.
I currently am using a home brewed solution for the engine.
and this has made it lots of fun.
but all the math is in place and the flight model is really coming together.
working on the network design and implementation then I can start hounding the content artists.