No Real Clue" in Official Documentation ???
by Darrel Cusey · in Torque Game Engine · 01/19/2006 (11:51 pm) · 24 replies
When I'm reading what has been labeled as the "Official" Torque Documentation, it's disappointing (to say the least) to find quotes like this:
"To be honest I don't have a real clue as to the exact function of this device in this context..."
"Again, I'm puzzled by the exact function of this filter."
Both these quotes were from the documentation on the Terrain Texture Editor ( http://www.garagegames.com/docs/tge/general/ch04s09.php )
Can someone at GG please go into this page and provide a concise description of exactly how to use this tool?
What do the X and Y axis on the Height Mask Setting represent? The author of the documentation guessed at the function, but it doesn't seem to really work the way described. Maybe it's just a bad description -- either way, it needs to be made concise.
What does "Use Fractal Distortion" do when used in Place-by-x operations? This option isn't even mentioned (much less explained) when using these placement operations. The documentation author made a guess at what Fractal Distortion is, but what I'm looking for is a description of what exactly the "Use Fractal Distortion" option does when checked or unckecked in the Place-by-x operations.
Why is it that every placement operation must have a "Fractal Distortion" operation first? Why can't I delete this operation? What if I'm _trying_ to create an unrealistic terrain and I don't want the fractal distortion -- apparantly that isn't an option. If I add a second operation, say "Place by Height", and uncheck the "Use Fractal Distortion" will it then not use it? If that's the case, then it'd be nice to have some documentation that states this.
How do the "Fractal Distortion" graph and the "x Mask Settings" graph work together? Do they work together? Does one provide a filter for the other, or are they completely independent? Are the independent only when you uncheck "Use Fractal Distortion"?
Without concise documentation, I find that I have to "fiddle" with this tool to try to get the results I'm looking for - which is a tremendous waste of time. I've probably spent a total of 15 hours now searching through the entire site (and TDN) for documentation on this, and everything I've found either says even _less_ than the URL above, or simply points to the URL above.
GG, please fix this.
Thanks!
"To be honest I don't have a real clue as to the exact function of this device in this context..."
"Again, I'm puzzled by the exact function of this filter."
Both these quotes were from the documentation on the Terrain Texture Editor ( http://www.garagegames.com/docs/tge/general/ch04s09.php )
Can someone at GG please go into this page and provide a concise description of exactly how to use this tool?
What do the X and Y axis on the Height Mask Setting represent? The author of the documentation guessed at the function, but it doesn't seem to really work the way described. Maybe it's just a bad description -- either way, it needs to be made concise.
What does "Use Fractal Distortion" do when used in Place-by-x operations? This option isn't even mentioned (much less explained) when using these placement operations. The documentation author made a guess at what Fractal Distortion is, but what I'm looking for is a description of what exactly the "Use Fractal Distortion" option does when checked or unckecked in the Place-by-x operations.
Why is it that every placement operation must have a "Fractal Distortion" operation first? Why can't I delete this operation? What if I'm _trying_ to create an unrealistic terrain and I don't want the fractal distortion -- apparantly that isn't an option. If I add a second operation, say "Place by Height", and uncheck the "Use Fractal Distortion" will it then not use it? If that's the case, then it'd be nice to have some documentation that states this.
How do the "Fractal Distortion" graph and the "x Mask Settings" graph work together? Do they work together? Does one provide a filter for the other, or are they completely independent? Are the independent only when you uncheck "Use Fractal Distortion"?
Without concise documentation, I find that I have to "fiddle" with this tool to try to get the results I'm looking for - which is a tremendous waste of time. I've probably spent a total of 15 hours now searching through the entire site (and TDN) for documentation on this, and everything I've found either says even _less_ than the URL above, or simply points to the URL above.
GG, please fix this.
Thanks!
#2
03/01/2006 (4:44 pm)
I feel that documentation could be a little better to.. They should take example of how the documentation is handled in 3d gamestudio. That literally explain everything... and is about a 2000 page pdf file only explaining how the script works. They're explaining every detail of each script function and events and they even give good samples to. Why isn't this for torque?
#3
If GG is worried about piracy it's not as if anyone can publish a pirated game >.<..
Please GG Make some sort of advancements in your documentation and put it in pdf format... Much Appreciated!
03/09/2006 (4:14 pm)
I concur, I wanna be able to download the documentation in a pdf file or in some sort of transportable downloadable file so I can transport it home where I have no internet. I would like a pdf file explaining every function.If GG is worried about piracy it's not as if anyone can publish a pirated game >.<..
Please GG Make some sort of advancements in your documentation and put it in pdf format... Much Appreciated!
#4
There is a downloadable version of a new and better TorqueScript reference doc on the way (in pdf form).
03/09/2006 (4:52 pm)
James,There is a downloadable version of a new and better TorqueScript reference doc on the way (in pdf form).
#5
Or at least we heard that the clouds would some day part, and the sun would shine through...
;)
03/09/2006 (6:47 pm)
And the clouds parted, and the sunlight shined down upon them...Or at least we heard that the clouds would some day part, and the sun would shine through...
;)
#7
with a better documentation, torque would be easier to use than 3DGS, because in the moment I must confess, it scares any newcomer.
I'm glad to listen tough that a better documentation is on way, thanks GG.
03/16/2006 (3:39 am)
Well, torque should be aimed to non-programmers too, and, to be sincere, it's what the whole propaganda in the site says.with a better documentation, torque would be easier to use than 3DGS, because in the moment I must confess, it scares any newcomer.
I'm glad to listen tough that a better documentation is on way, thanks GG.
#8
Nowhere.
03/17/2006 (5:45 pm)
Quote:Well, torque should be aimed to non-programmers too, and, to be sincere, its what the whole propaganda in the site says.Where does it say "You need NO PROGRAMING EXPERIENCE WHATSOEVER to make a COMMERCIAL-QUALITY AAA GAME with Torque!"?
Nowhere.
#9
You can generate the documentation in PDF format with some slight tweaks to the doxygen config file (/doc/doxygen/html). It takes a little effort, but then your documentation will always match your code. If you follow doxygen coding conventions, it will document your work as well.
03/22/2006 (5:03 pm)
Quote:Please GG Make some sort of advancements in your documentation and put it in pdf format...
You can generate the documentation in PDF format with some slight tweaks to the doxygen config file (/doc/doxygen/html). It takes a little effort, but then your documentation will always match your code. If you follow doxygen coding conventions, it will document your work as well.
#10
I'm not complaining about Torque Game Engine itself, wich is a fantastic product
but, what you should realize is that it could be even better and it could attract more people by just making it easier for newcomers to start using it
gamestudio scripting isn't easier to use than torque's but their documentation is far better, that's why, gamestudio receive better reviews than torque, in spite it's a completely inferior product.
03/23/2006 (7:04 pm)
It doesn't says that, but it says: " Our mission is simple: to create truly innovative, feature-rich, yet affordable, tools and resources for developers at any level - and on any platform"I'm not complaining about Torque Game Engine itself, wich is a fantastic product
but, what you should realize is that it could be even better and it could attract more people by just making it easier for newcomers to start using it
gamestudio scripting isn't easier to use than torque's but their documentation is far better, that's why, gamestudio receive better reviews than torque, in spite it's a completely inferior product.
#11
I just found my old A4 disc in my CD archive! time to relive my memories...
03/23/2006 (8:12 pm)
Well, if you have no programming experience what-so-ever, you should be working in something like the FPS creator from theGameCreators or downloading lots of OpenGL tutorials and then possibly moving into Managed C environments/Torque once you have a better hand in programming.I just found my old A4 disc in my CD archive! time to relive my memories...
#12
Do not take it personal.
GG knows about it and they are doing something about it even if slowly.
Yes you can buy a book but that is not substitute for well commented code
Let's help each other in a constructive way instead telling people to go back to school
03/24/2006 (1:37 am)
Please do not be harsh with people asking for better documentation. Do not take it personal.
GG knows about it and they are doing something about it even if slowly.
Yes you can buy a book but that is not substitute for well commented code
Let's help each other in a constructive way instead telling people to go back to school
#13
03/24/2006 (1:54 am)
What Hokuto said. 
#14
Alot of the void is filled by members who have 'dug' a little farther and found things out. It seems sometimes that documentation isn't a priority? The documentation for other products in the same price range is better but I don't think that should be any form of comparision. If you sell something, you should try to put together more coherant. I am not faulting the technology, just that the learning curve is quite high without a good guide. We shouldn't have to 'buy' another book to use something...
Basic things like a walkthrough to the starter.fps script would be a good start..
04/20/2006 (9:12 am)
I don't want to take sides but I'm am a game programmer with commercial game programming experience on AAA titles and I too find the documentation lacking in form of substance and cohesion. I have talked to a few other commercial game developers who took at look at the engine and decided not to use it just because of this fact alone.Alot of the void is filled by members who have 'dug' a little farther and found things out. It seems sometimes that documentation isn't a priority? The documentation for other products in the same price range is better but I don't think that should be any form of comparision. If you sell something, you should try to put together more coherant. I am not faulting the technology, just that the learning curve is quite high without a good guide. We shouldn't have to 'buy' another book to use something...
Basic things like a walkthrough to the starter.fps script would be a good start..
#15
I also know a few more commercial game developers and they share the same opinion.
Fact is that Indie developers, the ones buying TGE, are no just GOOD PROGRAMMERS, but all sort of passionate people wanting to make games.
The best help GG can give to Indie Developers (if they are really here with a mission to support the indie community, of course supported by a viable business model, no money no go), is the power of Torque but in an easy to use format.
The fact that an engine aimed at Indie and small teams wanting to become indies ships without a well developed manual and sets of easy to follow step by step introductory tutorials is disgusting to say the least.
I know there is a new getting starter tutorial, but c'mon... it's so limited in its scope that considering it is the only one on offer is still very silly, especailly considering that TGE is now at version 1.4 and no on EA status.
FACT is that the bulk of GG customers are no the PROFESSIONAL PROGRAMMERS (and I said I know a few that do share Terence Tan opinion) but the MASS MARKET, people with a dream and the passion to become Indie, you know Bedroom develpoers, Garage developers.
So if you are a well rounded programmer that 'has no problem' working with a badly commented engine with lacking documentation then that's purely your own Fetish
Suggesting you HAVE to buy a book to get started is STUPID!
I bought a product and I expect to find good documentation about it, easy to use documentation.
Actually to make a point... did you check the lack of availibility of Ed Maurina's The Game Programmer's Guide to Torque book on amazon.co.uk?
You know how much it costs today on amazon.co.uk?
04/20/2006 (12:01 pm)
I fully support Terence Tan in what he says.I also know a few more commercial game developers and they share the same opinion.
Fact is that Indie developers, the ones buying TGE, are no just GOOD PROGRAMMERS, but all sort of passionate people wanting to make games.
The best help GG can give to Indie Developers (if they are really here with a mission to support the indie community, of course supported by a viable business model, no money no go), is the power of Torque but in an easy to use format.
The fact that an engine aimed at Indie and small teams wanting to become indies ships without a well developed manual and sets of easy to follow step by step introductory tutorials is disgusting to say the least.
I know there is a new getting starter tutorial, but c'mon... it's so limited in its scope that considering it is the only one on offer is still very silly, especailly considering that TGE is now at version 1.4 and no on EA status.
FACT is that the bulk of GG customers are no the PROFESSIONAL PROGRAMMERS (and I said I know a few that do share Terence Tan opinion) but the MASS MARKET, people with a dream and the passion to become Indie, you know Bedroom develpoers, Garage developers.
So if you are a well rounded programmer that 'has no problem' working with a badly commented engine with lacking documentation then that's purely your own Fetish
Suggesting you HAVE to buy a book to get started is STUPID!
I bought a product and I expect to find good documentation about it, easy to use documentation.
Actually to make a point... did you check the lack of availibility of Ed Maurina's The Game Programmer's Guide to Torque book on amazon.co.uk?
You know how much it costs today on amazon.co.uk?
#16
Most of the Feature points on the main site lead you to believe that there is official documentation, when in fact, about 80% has been created by forum users and could be wrong. heh.
I love the engine, and yes the community is great. But official documentation is really needed.
It's stated quite clearly that there are tutorials and documentation... I haven't really found it yet I guess.
The official documents...we.. Not many people can read that, and especially if you're a beginner, you won't have a chance in hell of understanding this, you cant even read it, there not a paragraph in the thing..its more of a list. A list of things i have no clue what they are lol.
Not to menti0on you click on official docs, and it doesn't take you to it, it dumps you into the resources that other users have submitted.
That quite confusing...
Going by what's stated on the site before you buy torque, you don't need anything else to get going.. But you really need about 3 books, 3 tools you can buy from them, and some content packs that have commonly requested functions that no one ever seems to want to talk about.
Any way, I like using torque. But the documentation is lacking, and I mean official, GG made for latest version IN ENGLISH docs. Even the script has comments like someone was talking about above. "what is this?"
Asking your user base to fill in the gap doesn't really solve the problem either (TDN).
2c
/flame shield on
SIDE NOTE: Would it have been that hard to put usefull infromation in the header of CS files? We know GG wrote it, but what is its reltave location, (starter.fps/server/The.CS), what does this CS file do? What functions does this part called and where is it? ETC...
04/20/2006 (1:26 pm)
It is odd to see a pay to use product being run almost like an open source project.Most of the Feature points on the main site lead you to believe that there is official documentation, when in fact, about 80% has been created by forum users and could be wrong. heh.
I love the engine, and yes the community is great. But official documentation is really needed.
It's stated quite clearly that there are tutorials and documentation... I haven't really found it yet I guess.
The official documents...we.. Not many people can read that, and especially if you're a beginner, you won't have a chance in hell of understanding this, you cant even read it, there not a paragraph in the thing..its more of a list. A list of things i have no clue what they are lol.
Not to menti0on you click on official docs, and it doesn't take you to it, it dumps you into the resources that other users have submitted.
That quite confusing...
Going by what's stated on the site before you buy torque, you don't need anything else to get going.. But you really need about 3 books, 3 tools you can buy from them, and some content packs that have commonly requested functions that no one ever seems to want to talk about.
Any way, I like using torque. But the documentation is lacking, and I mean official, GG made for latest version IN ENGLISH docs. Even the script has comments like someone was talking about above. "what is this?"
Asking your user base to fill in the gap doesn't really solve the problem either (TDN).
2c
/flame shield on
SIDE NOTE: Would it have been that hard to put usefull infromation in the header of CS files? We know GG wrote it, but what is its reltave location, (starter.fps/server/The.CS), what does this CS file do? What functions does this part called and where is it? ETC...
#17
The Official Docs cover every aspect you could need about the Torque |>engine<| (not your specific game, or the starter kit, as it states, it is the engine documentation.), And do not lead you to the resources section. I don't know where you got that from?
"Going by whats stated on the site before you buy torque, you dont need anything else to get going.. But you really need about 3 books, 3 tools you can buy from them, and some content packs that have commonly requested functions that no one ever seems to want to talk about."
Actually, you don't need any books to use the game engine, or any of the tools (You mean the one tool) GG sells, or any content packs. You just need Emacs, Blender and a C compiler, all free. I made my first Marble Blast clone in Torque without any of these things, MoM was created without any of these.
The whole point of the TDN is that the GG staff add basic documentation about the engine and starter kits that they're actively working on, and then the users can clean up sections or add to sections they feel are out of place/need more explaining. Just like Wikipedia.
GG didn't make the engine themselves, the bought it form Dynamix, wich explains the 'What does this do' xcomments, hilighting code that, to the user, seems redundant but is referenced in essential components of the gnine, a fault of Dynamix. Seriously, no indie engine has this amount of documentation, if you wanted something like the UDN you should have considered Unreal (It's $8000 for a non-commercial non-game lisence), really.
@Hokuto - Umm... Id've though an Indie wouldn't have had time to read through gigabytes of documentation anyway if they didn't have time not to read documentation...
The Starter.FPS that comes with the engine comes with a PDF tutorial on how to make a basic multiplayer 'Domination-style' (like in UT2004) game.
Now that I read over all that, It didn't make much sense, but I'll post it anyway.
04/20/2006 (9:11 pm)
Well, the CS filenames are all self explanitory, ie. weapons.cs controls the default script specifications for the Weapon object. I don't know how people find it so hard, there are 13 year olds who use this engine with no troubles. The Official Docs cover every aspect you could need about the Torque |>engine<| (not your specific game, or the starter kit, as it states, it is the engine documentation.), And do not lead you to the resources section. I don't know where you got that from?
"Going by whats stated on the site before you buy torque, you dont need anything else to get going.. But you really need about 3 books, 3 tools you can buy from them, and some content packs that have commonly requested functions that no one ever seems to want to talk about."
Actually, you don't need any books to use the game engine, or any of the tools (You mean the one tool) GG sells, or any content packs. You just need Emacs, Blender and a C compiler, all free. I made my first Marble Blast clone in Torque without any of these things, MoM was created without any of these.
The whole point of the TDN is that the GG staff add basic documentation about the engine and starter kits that they're actively working on, and then the users can clean up sections or add to sections they feel are out of place/need more explaining. Just like Wikipedia.
GG didn't make the engine themselves, the bought it form Dynamix, wich explains the 'What does this do' xcomments, hilighting code that, to the user, seems redundant but is referenced in essential components of the gnine, a fault of Dynamix. Seriously, no indie engine has this amount of documentation, if you wanted something like the UDN you should have considered Unreal (It's $8000 for a non-commercial non-game lisence), really.
@Hokuto - Umm... Id've though an Indie wouldn't have had time to read through gigabytes of documentation anyway if they didn't have time not to read documentation...
The Starter.FPS that comes with the engine comes with a PDF tutorial on how to make a basic multiplayer 'Domination-style' (like in UT2004) game.
Now that I read over all that, It didn't make much sense, but I'll post it anyway.
#18
The only PDF file I can see in the 1.4 installation is the GettindStarted.pdf
Am I missing something?
04/21/2006 (12:18 pm)
@Mincetro: The Starter.FPS that comes with the engine comes with a PDF tutorial on how to make a basic multiplayer 'Domination-style' (like in UT2004) game.The only PDF file I can see in the 1.4 installation is the GettindStarted.pdf
Am I missing something?
#19
Clark Fagot, Mark Frohnmayer, Tim Gift and Rick Overman were all employed at Dynamix.
Not even GarageGames claims this. There's missing documentation on different parts of the internal-engine. This is being worked on, but it does still not cover "every aspect you could need".
Alot of people are having trouble, even experienced programmers, so there's definatly a need for it. Or else we wouldn't be having TDN, would we?
and
These quotes represent your perception of how it works, not everyone's. So please show some understanding and stop grabbing so much from the air. It just looks bad and I'm sure you're a nice guy.
/Stefan
04/21/2006 (1:09 pm)
@Mincetro Deadalus Slayer:Quote:
GG didn't make the engine themselves, the bought it form Dynamix
Clark Fagot, Mark Frohnmayer, Tim Gift and Rick Overman were all employed at Dynamix.
Quote:
The Official Docs cover every aspect you could need about the Torque |>engine<|
Not even GarageGames claims this. There's missing documentation on different parts of the internal-engine. This is being worked on, but it does still not cover "every aspect you could need".
Alot of people are having trouble, even experienced programmers, so there's definatly a need for it. Or else we wouldn't be having TDN, would we?
Quote:
Umm... Id've though an Indie wouldn't have had time to read through gigabytes of documentation anyway if they didn't have time not to read documentation...
and
Quote:
Well, if you have no programming experience what-so-ever, you should be working in something like the FPS creator from theGameCreators
These quotes represent your perception of how it works, not everyone's. So please show some understanding and stop grabbing so much from the air. It just looks bad and I'm sure you're a nice guy.
/Stefan
Torque Owner Mark Barner
mbarnatl