March 2002 - Community Discussion
by Matt W · in General Discussion · 02/26/2002 (3:29 pm) · 28 replies
Share your thoughts and opinions on the issues mentioned in the Community Discussion of the March 2002 issue of the GarageGames Community Newsletter!
Read it here
Read it here
#2
03/01/2002 (12:45 am)
Concerning the cel_shading, I first saw it on a playstation game called Fear Effect. I think that for some particular game it can fit well. However, this technique still need good model and texture. For our project, we will try it, but only for the player model in order to highlight the comics design of the plane.
#3
ps2.ign.com/articles/137/137158p1.html
03/01/2002 (5:47 am)
in matters of cell-shading all i have to say is Automodellista;ps2.ign.com/articles/137/137158p1.html
#4
solution help you fix the problem?
03/01/2002 (11:09 am)
I like the "Linux woes" tidbit. :) R. Jackson, did Tim'ssolution help you fix the problem?
#5
03/01/2002 (11:19 am)
I think this newsletter is great. It was well done and interesting. I just hope the community will continue to contribute to it.
#6
About Jet Set Radio (grind in america) it didnt sell well because NOTHING at the time was selling on the DC, they just caught the back end of the DC dying out. Hence the re-release on XBox and Cube.
Cel shading is just the tip of the iceberg, expect to see quite a lot of new things coming your way VERY soon.
Take a look at NPR Quake (do a google for it) and tell me that it isnt cool! ok, you wouldnt render a whole game like that, but I for one wouldnt mind having a single "building" in a level rendered in such a way (dont think I wont be adding it to torque :))
NPR (non photorealistic rendering) has a LOT of use, to try and bring a stylish touch to your game.
BTW: Worms 3D is about to start, we probably wont be cel shading much, but it should look pretty mad and the AI will be quite something (I hope, thats what my main focus is).
Phil.
03/01/2002 (12:42 pm)
The point of cel shading, was that it was a departure from "realistic" rendering, which everyone and thier dog is trying to achieve.About Jet Set Radio (grind in america) it didnt sell well because NOTHING at the time was selling on the DC, they just caught the back end of the DC dying out. Hence the re-release on XBox and Cube.
Cel shading is just the tip of the iceberg, expect to see quite a lot of new things coming your way VERY soon.
Take a look at NPR Quake (do a google for it) and tell me that it isnt cool! ok, you wouldnt render a whole game like that, but I for one wouldnt mind having a single "building" in a level rendered in such a way (dont think I wont be adding it to torque :))
NPR (non photorealistic rendering) has a LOT of use, to try and bring a stylish touch to your game.
BTW: Worms 3D is about to start, we probably wont be cel shading much, but it should look pretty mad and the AI will be quite something (I hope, thats what my main focus is).
Phil.
#7
NPRQuake is *fantastic*, if a little hard to play with some of the renderers. Automodellista looks to ooze style, too.
Now, I do think there can be too much of a good thing, and cel-shading in games is looking a little passe. I'd like to see some other NPR techniques take hold, like sketching and painterly approaches.
At the end of the day though, you have to examine why you want your game to be cel-shaded. With JGR, it really works with the whole bold, stylish, graffiti theme. With Automodellista, it looks like they're going for an anime/manga "dramatic racer" feel. I think it can enhance the cartoony feel of some things. But if you have no reason to use cel-shading, the result is probably going to look out of place, IMO.
THE resource for NPR researchers: http://www.red3d.com/cwr/npr/
03/01/2002 (3:04 pm)
NPR is one of my hobbies, and frankly, the realtime NPR techniques coming out make me moist. I picked up a used Dreamcast recently, primarily so I could play Jet Grind Radio.. DJs, graffiti, and cel-shading - it's like the perfect game for me.NPRQuake is *fantastic*, if a little hard to play with some of the renderers. Automodellista looks to ooze style, too.
Now, I do think there can be too much of a good thing, and cel-shading in games is looking a little passe. I'd like to see some other NPR techniques take hold, like sketching and painterly approaches.
At the end of the day though, you have to examine why you want your game to be cel-shaded. With JGR, it really works with the whole bold, stylish, graffiti theme. With Automodellista, it looks like they're going for an anime/manga "dramatic racer" feel. I think it can enhance the cartoony feel of some things. But if you have no reason to use cel-shading, the result is probably going to look out of place, IMO.
THE resource for NPR researchers: http://www.red3d.com/cwr/npr/
#8
If ONE game were to use it... that's the game I'd expect!
That's probably the only game (aside from Jet Grind Future on Xbox) that I'll "accept" using cel-shading! noooooo! :p
03/01/2002 (3:11 pm)
What? Worms 3d won't be using Cel-shading?If ONE game were to use it... that's the game I'd expect!
That's probably the only game (aside from Jet Grind Future on Xbox) that I'll "accept" using cel-shading! noooooo! :p
#9
As a proud owner of the great (yet not dead!) DC, and JGR, I can say that when done right cel-shading can really add to a game. It can also, like any technique, remove from the game. Remember when every game on the face of the earth had lense-flares? for no fuggin' reason? I can remember reading reviews "The lense flares in this game are great..."
While I appreciate the fact that someone added the code for lense flares to Torque, they are simply another tool to be used to improve game play at the proper time ("ultra super racing sim" = yes, "mole man moe stumbles in the dark" = no).
Cel shading will be big (especially on the X-box which has several cel-shader titles on the horizon), and eventually it will wear off to only being used when appropriate (like JGR sequels...)
The original reason for cel-shading was to releave poor CPUs from intense lighting calculations. I 'think' the first cel-shaded 3d game was for the PC (though it might have been on the PS1). The point in that game (which was a murder-mystery if i'm right) was it allowed very smooth surfaces (about 10 000 polys in a cinematic model, which was pretty nuts at the time.. we are talking Voodoo1 era).
But that is just my 2 cent history lesson (hopfully it is right too).
03/01/2002 (4:55 pm)
Snap to original comment As a proud owner of the great (yet not dead!) DC, and JGR, I can say that when done right cel-shading can really add to a game. It can also, like any technique, remove from the game. Remember when every game on the face of the earth had lense-flares? for no fuggin' reason? I can remember reading reviews "The lense flares in this game are great..."
While I appreciate the fact that someone added the code for lense flares to Torque, they are simply another tool to be used to improve game play at the proper time ("ultra super racing sim" = yes, "mole man moe stumbles in the dark" = no).
Cel shading will be big (especially on the X-box which has several cel-shader titles on the horizon), and eventually it will wear off to only being used when appropriate (like JGR sequels...)
The original reason for cel-shading was to releave poor CPUs from intense lighting calculations. I 'think' the first cel-shaded 3d game was for the PC (though it might have been on the PS1). The point in that game (which was a murder-mystery if i'm right) was it allowed very smooth surfaces (about 10 000 polys in a cinematic model, which was pretty nuts at the time.. we are talking Voodoo1 era).
But that is just my 2 cent history lesson (hopfully it is right too).
#10
03/01/2002 (8:38 pm)
I just wanted to say, Good work on the newsletter. Thanks for writing it up, and thanks to all that contributed to it.
#11
What will happen to JommyJones next week??? Tune in to find out!!
Very nice so far :)
03/01/2002 (9:09 pm)
JimmyJones should have an adventure every issue...What will happen to JommyJones next week??? Tune in to find out!!
Very nice so far :)
#12
Great stuff matt!
On the issue of cell-shading, I really dont like it. It only works in a very few games, like Phil Carlise's "Captain Zap" for example. Even then, it just looks "ok" to me.
I think the new Zelda for the Gamecube was ruined by it, and that alone probably stopped me from buying one.
03/02/2002 (12:33 pm)
Guys, dont think JimmyJones is a ficitonal character... there have been conversations EXACTLY like that in the IRC room... (that text was probably copy pasted out of the room, and some names changed for legality issues... :)Great stuff matt!
On the issue of cell-shading, I really dont like it. It only works in a very few games, like Phil Carlise's "Captain Zap" for example. Even then, it just looks "ok" to me.
I think the new Zelda for the Gamecube was ruined by it, and that alone probably stopped me from buying one.
#13
I think that cel-shading is a first real step toward mainstreaming non-realistic rendering. We have been able to make fairly realistic games, now we want to mimic other graphical styles. Things like pencil drawn worlds, painted cities, and cartoon characters... in 3d.
I think in the long-run, cel-shading will be good for games because it will break up the monotony of "oh ANOTHER game with amazingly high polycounts and high resolution textures..." and throw a few really unique looking things in occasionally. I think within 2 years cel-shading will have gone the way of the lens flare and will be used in a much more "tasteful" manner but much less frequently than it is being used now. No more "Use Cel-shading to 0wnz0rz all!" which we can see was the case with Zelda or some of the other games that really don't fit.
03/02/2002 (1:28 pm)
Cel-shading (to me) should only be used in either really "hip" games like Jet Grind Radio, cartoon games (like "Cel Damage") and "cute" games like was mentioned, Zap (is that the full name?)I think that cel-shading is a first real step toward mainstreaming non-realistic rendering. We have been able to make fairly realistic games, now we want to mimic other graphical styles. Things like pencil drawn worlds, painted cities, and cartoon characters... in 3d.
I think in the long-run, cel-shading will be good for games because it will break up the monotony of "oh ANOTHER game with amazingly high polycounts and high resolution textures..." and throw a few really unique looking things in occasionally. I think within 2 years cel-shading will have gone the way of the lens flare and will be used in a much more "tasteful" manner but much less frequently than it is being used now. No more "Use Cel-shading to 0wnz0rz all!" which we can see was the case with Zelda or some of the other games that really don't fit.
#14
I believe it's easier to create a nice-looking 2D-style piece by using 3D software and an NPR renderer than it would be to e.g. draw each frame by hand, and many programmers are interested in it because they couldn't hope to draw/paint/ink at an equivalent level.
But back to games.. bottom line, I agree that some people use it just to make their game look different when it's not really suitable, but it can also be an interesting device to separate gameplay from flash realistic graphics. It's fairly easy to imagine yourself as the protaganist if it's a cool-looking guy, but if a game can make you feel connected to a stick figure, surely it's succeeded?
03/02/2002 (2:46 pm)
I actually have another theory about cel-shading (and NPR in general). I suppose the theory is a bit controversial and some people might not like it, but..I believe it's easier to create a nice-looking 2D-style piece by using 3D software and an NPR renderer than it would be to e.g. draw each frame by hand, and many programmers are interested in it because they couldn't hope to draw/paint/ink at an equivalent level.
But back to games.. bottom line, I agree that some people use it just to make their game look different when it's not really suitable, but it can also be an interesting device to separate gameplay from flash realistic graphics. It's fairly easy to imagine yourself as the protaganist if it's a cool-looking guy, but if a game can make you feel connected to a stick figure, surely it's succeeded?
#15
03/02/2002 (11:31 pm)
Great start to the newsletter. I just have one comment to make about it. Lately, Garagegames has been going all out for the Torque engine, (understandebly,) and there is less and less support and information for game developers not using the Torque engine. Just keep that in mind for the reSource section, as it would be nice to see some information that could help developers not using the Torque engine.
#16
If you're going to want some external things as in case-studies, I'm not the one who's going to write them... afterall, I'm not the *only* member of the community. And I'm hardly the most knowledgable. So share the info and share ideas on what you want to see.
03/03/2002 (1:22 am)
There never was a "torque only" rule, but I'm not going to go and start explaining processes for things I won't be using. So that's the job of non-torquers :pIf you're going to want some external things as in case-studies, I'm not the one who's going to write them... afterall, I'm not the *only* member of the community. And I'm hardly the most knowledgable. So share the info and share ideas on what you want to see.
#17
Not a problem, if you don't know it, you can't write about it. As for the rest of the community, there must be people with non-torque knowledge, so let's share the wealth! :)
Things I'd like to see are practical Game AI solutions, interesting code tricks, design theories, and networking code and principles. My game is heavily multiplayer with DirectPlay, so I know some information about that particular area if anyone needs information.
03/03/2002 (3:05 pm)
Matt:Not a problem, if you don't know it, you can't write about it. As for the rest of the community, there must be people with non-torque knowledge, so let's share the wealth! :)
Things I'd like to see are practical Game AI solutions, interesting code tricks, design theories, and networking code and principles. My game is heavily multiplayer with DirectPlay, so I know some information about that particular area if anyone needs information.
#18
You don't have to limit yourself just to Resources on GarageGames.com, there many other resources on the web. For your AI queries, take a look at www.ai-depot.com and more specifically for games, www.gameai.com. Incidently the latter website also contains a bunch of game developing anecdotes, and "you know your game is in trouble when..." quotes in the same style as the ones in the newsletter.
03/03/2002 (4:12 pm)
James:You don't have to limit yourself just to Resources on GarageGames.com, there many other resources on the web. For your AI queries, take a look at www.ai-depot.com and more specifically for games, www.gameai.com. Incidently the latter website also contains a bunch of game developing anecdotes, and "you know your game is in trouble when..." quotes in the same style as the ones in the newsletter.
#19
Yeah, I know you can get information elsewhere, but Garagegames should be a place where you can get information like that too. I'm sure they don't won't people going to the "competition!" Just kidding! :)
03/03/2002 (8:24 pm)
Thanks for that, I did read those quotes on GameAI.com, pretty funny stuff.Yeah, I know you can get information elsewhere, but Garagegames should be a place where you can get information like that too. I'm sure they don't won't people going to the "competition!" Just kidding! :)
#20
Agree, More resources which aren't always Torque-centric should be added, but I guess that's up to the people who want them to add them.
Personally, when I think of GarageGames, I think and for most of Torque (well, actually of V12, but that's slowly passing). I think the people running GarageGames are also focusing more on that, and helping developers using the Torque engine getting their projects going.
I expect them to become more helpful to the general indie game development community as things move along, but for now, anything you want to know about other engines, you could probably find it with less difficulty on websites related to the actual engine. You'll also meet more people using that engine.
03/03/2002 (9:50 pm)
James:Agree, More resources which aren't always Torque-centric should be added, but I guess that's up to the people who want them to add them.
Personally, when I think of GarageGames, I think and for most of Torque (well, actually of V12, but that's slowly passing). I think the people running GarageGames are also focusing more on that, and helping developers using the Torque engine getting their projects going.
I expect them to become more helpful to the general indie game development community as things move along, but for now, anything you want to know about other engines, you could probably find it with less difficulty on websites related to the actual engine. You'll also meet more people using that engine.
Torque Owner Chris Schletter