Some "Official Clarification" on 1.4 info...
by Kirby Webber · in General Discussion · 11/23/2005 (12:23 pm) · 63 replies
To the good folks at Garage Games,
First let me take this opportunity to not only congratulate you on the release of 1.4, but also to thank you profusely for all of the time and effort it's taken to see this thing through and make TGE what it is today... you guys are an Indy's best friend.
There seem to be some changes and statements on the TGE product page however, that are causing quite a stir.
This prompted me to ask for some clarification on behalf of the community...
Are we to take this to mean that the Synapse Lighting Pack has been integrated into the "stock" 1.4 source code and no additional purchase is necessary to access the additional lighting functionality?
If so... WOW!
If not, please elaborate on what is meant specifically. (C;
Now, I personally take this to mean that, other than adressing immediate stability issues, 1.4 is pretty much "it" and the future of Torque lies with TSE.
The question is though, IS that what is meant, or are their plans for further - pay for a different license - versions of TGE?
At any rate, I'm excited that 1.4 is finally here and can't wait to start porting my project.
Thanks again to all of you. =)
First let me take this opportunity to not only congratulate you on the release of 1.4, but also to thank you profusely for all of the time and effort it's taken to see this thing through and make TGE what it is today... you guys are an Indy's best friend.
There seem to be some changes and statements on the TGE product page however, that are causing quite a stir.
This prompted me to ask for some clarification on behalf of the community...
Quote:
Torque 1.4 also has received an illumination boost with its integration with the new Torque Lighting Kit.
Are we to take this to mean that the Synapse Lighting Pack has been integrated into the "stock" 1.4 source code and no additional purchase is necessary to access the additional lighting functionality?
If so... WOW!
If not, please elaborate on what is meant specifically. (C;
Quote:
TGE 1.4 is the last free upgrade in the Torque Game Engine line. If you're looking for an upgrade beyone TGE, you should check out the Torque Shader Engine
Now, I personally take this to mean that, other than adressing immediate stability issues, 1.4 is pretty much "it" and the future of Torque lies with TSE.
The question is though, IS that what is meant, or are their plans for further - pay for a different license - versions of TGE?
At any rate, I'm excited that 1.4 is finally here and can't wait to start porting my project.
Thanks again to all of you. =)
#2
The Torque Lighting Kit is still a separate product (previously known as the Lighting Pack).
We (Synapse Gaming and GarageGames) worked very closely on this release making the Torque Lighting Kit easier than ever to use and customize, and rolling fixes available in TLK into TGE.
All of the awesome lighting tools and technology are still unique to the Torque Lighting Kit - if you don't have it yet what are you waiting for? :)
Also TLK is now featured heavily in the TGE demos - so check them out. :)
-John
11/23/2005 (12:52 pm)
Hi guys,The Torque Lighting Kit is still a separate product (previously known as the Lighting Pack).
We (Synapse Gaming and GarageGames) worked very closely on this release making the Torque Lighting Kit easier than ever to use and customize, and rolling fixes available in TLK into TGE.
All of the awesome lighting tools and technology are still unique to the Torque Lighting Kit - if you don't have it yet what are you waiting for? :)
Also TLK is now featured heavily in the TGE demos - so check them out. :)
-John
#4
11/23/2005 (1:20 pm)
What about the plans for 1.5 and the component object model that was previously outlined by Garagegames employees? 
#5
I don't mean to be rude or anything offensive, it's just kind of premature to go suggesting people switch to something that still is by far incomplete.
11/23/2005 (1:37 pm)
So Benjamin, you saying that there never be a TGE 1.5 or what not? Also I won't consider TSE until it is cross platform in a sense of full and complete OpenGL support across Windows, Linux, and Mac OS X, else it just isn't worth the price tag in my opinion. Not to mention TSE isn't officially released as of yet, it's still a work in progress so isn't it not really smart idea to suggest people jumping on aboard the bandwagon just yet?I don't mean to be rude or anything offensive, it's just kind of premature to go suggesting people switch to something that still is by far incomplete.
#6
I'm just curious on the lighting kit for the TSE. Is there a release date or a beta.
11/23/2005 (1:42 pm)
Bob the builder ,I'm just curious on the lighting kit for the TSE. Is there a release date or a beta.
#7
11/23/2005 (1:44 pm)
I doubt there would be a lighting kit for TSE since TSE is mostly based around graphics and the need for a lighting kit would pretty much make it pointless. 
#8
You really need to read more forum posts and .plans... John said about the TSE lighting pack months ago (should be about done by now) ;)
11/23/2005 (1:51 pm)
"I doubt there would be a lighting kit for TSE since TSE is mostly based around graphics and the need for a lighting kit would pretty much make it pointless."You really need to read more forum posts and .plans... John said about the TSE lighting pack months ago (should be about done by now) ;)
#9
To get TLK up and running with TGE 1.4 - do we download the code patch (marked 1.3.0.zip) and apply it to the TGE 1.4 code? Installer on the way?
I'm confused with this "better integration" sort of stuff. All I really want to do is actually integrate it and it's not exactly obvious how! ;)
- Eric
11/23/2005 (2:13 pm)
A quick question for us TLK owners ;).To get TLK up and running with TGE 1.4 - do we download the code patch (marked 1.3.0.zip) and apply it to the TGE 1.4 code? Installer on the way?
I'm confused with this "better integration" sort of stuff. All I really want to do is actually integrate it and it's not exactly obvious how! ;)
- Eric
#10
We could have said nothing about this and just charged an upgrade for the next version. Instead, we decided to be honest and let you know what to expect in the future. When you buy Photoshop or Dreamweaver or Flash, you always know there will be an unpgrade in that you will have to puchase in the future. We are now saying that Torque is no different. Some day, there will be a new version of the $100 TGE, but for now, we have just released a shiny new fixed function pipeline engine that is being used by commercial developers, NASA, educational institutions, and developers around the world. You know your development investment is protected if you ever want to upgrade to shader technology and higher end graphics cards or even if you want to bring your game to consoles.
The only difference is that for the first time we have said that the next version of Torque will require current owners to pay an upgrade price. Of course, you are never required to upgrade to the new version. Torque is perfectly capable of shipping games, and you can add anything to the engine you want by writing it yourself. If our update saves you time or does something that you want, then you will have to decide if our reasonably priced upgrade fee is worth it to you (don't ask how much, we don't know yet... but, have we ever been unreasonable?).
-Jeff Tunnell, GG
11/23/2005 (2:52 pm)
Hey guys, regarding the last free major update issue. We have not charged for a Torque update in the four or so years it has been on the market. It took us about a year to go from 1.3 to 1.4, yet we didn't charge Torque owners a dime for the upgrade. We have continuously worked on the engine, and continued to give away free upgrades.We could have said nothing about this and just charged an upgrade for the next version. Instead, we decided to be honest and let you know what to expect in the future. When you buy Photoshop or Dreamweaver or Flash, you always know there will be an unpgrade in that you will have to puchase in the future. We are now saying that Torque is no different. Some day, there will be a new version of the $100 TGE, but for now, we have just released a shiny new fixed function pipeline engine that is being used by commercial developers, NASA, educational institutions, and developers around the world. You know your development investment is protected if you ever want to upgrade to shader technology and higher end graphics cards or even if you want to bring your game to consoles.
The only difference is that for the first time we have said that the next version of Torque will require current owners to pay an upgrade price. Of course, you are never required to upgrade to the new version. Torque is perfectly capable of shipping games, and you can add anything to the engine you want by writing it yourself. If our update saves you time or does something that you want, then you will have to decide if our reasonably priced upgrade fee is worth it to you (don't ask how much, we don't know yet... but, have we ever been unreasonable?).
-Jeff Tunnell, GG
#11
I think that the major difficulty with this move will be in much like the EULA change: people are resistant to change because they were used to "how it has always been". Personally, I give you kudos for not only being honest, but also for providing as much as you have without charging for an upgrade (even if it leads to shouting matched from the change). Regardless of how many engines I use or how many prototypes I play with, TGE has become a constant. And I don't see upgrade pricing changing that.
Now if I could just finish something...
11/23/2005 (3:01 pm)
@JeffI think that the major difficulty with this move will be in much like the EULA change: people are resistant to change because they were used to "how it has always been". Personally, I give you kudos for not only being honest, but also for providing as much as you have without charging for an upgrade (even if it leads to shouting matched from the change). Regardless of how many engines I use or how many prototypes I play with, TGE has become a constant. And I don't see upgrade pricing changing that.
Now if I could just finish something...
#12
if we want Torque to survive, then we gotta bite the bullet...
now that said, please make the bullet a pallatable entree :)
Congrats on 1.4!!!!
--Mike
11/23/2005 (3:23 pm)
I'm not having any problems with the new upgrade policy... i've seen many a company go under by offering free upgrades for the life of a product...if we want Torque to survive, then we gotta bite the bullet...
now that said, please make the bullet a pallatable entree :)
Congrats on 1.4!!!!
--Mike
#13
11/23/2005 (3:26 pm)
Well the main reason why I think paid upgrades would be good, is because it would give Garage Games a real motivation to put innovation into Torque. If new releases aren't free, adding great new features would be a lot viable business wise. Every other engine I have heard of, charges for each major update. And like Jeff said, you can already code pretty much anything you want using the current version (or even past versions) of Torque. To me it sounds like a win, win situations for all parties involved.
#14
11/23/2005 (3:27 pm)
I think one of the major reasons is also to provide revenue streams for additions and modifications to pieces of the engine that GG has been wanting to get to but hasn't had the time or funds to work on.
#15
11/23/2005 (3:30 pm)
With that being said, the really cool thing is that the next version of Torque would have to be a huge update. Otherwise current customers would have no reason to update. Luckily Garage Games never disappoints their user base. They always give you a lot of value for every penny you spend. Its just another way to get a lot of power into the hands of the independent game developer. I have actually been wanting Garage Games to start charging updates since I started to use it. In fact I thought it was insane not to charge for updates at some point in time. 
#16
Ian
11/23/2005 (4:47 pm)
I'd just like to say that I, for one, am completely happy with all of this. Sounds great to me.Ian
#17
"the next version of Torque would have to be a huge update"
Ummm..isn't that a description of TSE?
11/23/2005 (4:50 pm)
RE:"the next version of Torque would have to be a huge update"
Ummm..isn't that a description of TSE?
#18
Second...Like Jeff stated above...Discreet nor adobe either one has ever sent me notification of any
free upgrades. Torque has become just as important a tool to me as any other program
in my arsenal. I will be glad to pay for upgrades to Torque.
Third...The guys at GG deserve alot more than they actually charge for their work. I don't work for
free, nor does anyone else I know. Why should they?
In my eyes, GG is the most awesome group of devs on the planet. Thanks GG!!
-Cy
11/23/2005 (5:16 pm)
First off...I want to thank the guys at GG for the 1.4 release and the free upgrade. I LOVE IT!Second...Like Jeff stated above...Discreet nor adobe either one has ever sent me notification of any
free upgrades. Torque has become just as important a tool to me as any other program
in my arsenal. I will be glad to pay for upgrades to Torque.
Third...The guys at GG deserve alot more than they actually charge for their work. I don't work for
free, nor does anyone else I know. Why should they?
In my eyes, GG is the most awesome group of devs on the planet. Thanks GG!!
-Cy
#19
Selling a product that comes with a life time of free updates would just kill the company.
No doubt people will complain about it... but they are the people that will never ship a game (just blame it on a lack of free tools)
Congrats to GG for providing a brilliant product!
11/23/2005 (5:28 pm)
I've always said GG should charge more for the engine or charge for updates.Selling a product that comes with a life time of free updates would just kill the company.
No doubt people will complain about it... but they are the people that will never ship a game (just blame it on a lack of free tools)
Congrats to GG for providing a brilliant product!
#20
Long live GG.
11/23/2005 (5:30 pm)
Ditto. Glad to pay. What you're getting is worth so much more than what you're paying, I think it's an insult to even mention whether or not you would have to pay for future updates. Long live GG.
Associate David Montgomery-Blake
David MontgomeryBlake