Another blow for game devs in general

#21 So, the ESRB bent to political pressure and changed the rating.. I'm very depressed over this decision. The government doesn't do this for the MPAA, as essentially the MPAA runs the government. It shows the shitty double standards that are applied to entertainment. For years people have been pirating computer games, but no action has been seriously considered by government. That is, until the music industry whined that there was $$$ lost because of it. Well, boo hoo and bullshit...

I can see Take Two's point of "we didn't include that content". It really isn't a false statement. They didn't include it as active code in the final release. It required a mod to re-enable it... So, where does a software maker's responsibility lie? Does it end at the point where they cut a gold master, or does it extend into the mod-making period? I remember there being mods for Doom (the original) that replaced the "monster" WAD files with "nudie" WAD files. Is this Id's responsibility to police this and make it impossible to do such a thing?

Removing the ability to mod a game removes the ability to make a game last beyond it's intended 2-3 months of life. If the government feels they need to step in, then I'm gonna have to find a new government because they are working against my beliefs and desires to code. This is a sad day that the ESRB was strong-armed into changing their labeling to AO (Adults Only). Game retailers like Best Buy and Walmart won't even sell AO games because the content is 18+ content (yet another double standard because AO is essentially the same as R and they aren't swiping movies off the shelves). This only serves to hurt the developers and distributors of games.

Finally, where are the parents on this issue? Same place they've always been... here, let me provide you a typical clip from a family these days:


Note: Foul language intended to show cause.
Camera fades in on a dad and his 10 year old son...

Son: Dad, let's go outside and throw a baseball!
Dad: Not now son, I just got home from work. I need to relax and watch the news. Go play a videogame or something..
Son: (whining) But dad, I've been playing games and watching TV all day!
Dad: Son!!! Leave me alone or I'll give you something to whine about -- now go!

(Son goes and puts in San Andreas on the PC with the hot coffee mod that *he* knowingly downloaded from the net)

An hour later..

Son: Wow, dad.. I just fucked a ho and shot down some hooker in that game you bought me for my birthday!
Dad: What!? I would never buy you a game that has those things!! I can't believe that game would allow you to do that!
Son: Well, I had to download this mod off the 'net and install it. But it unlocks these sex scenes in the game where I can fuck my bitch anytime I want.
Dad: Someone needs to take responsbility for this!! I need to write a letter to my congressman about this atrocity!

So, the questions are:

1) Why did dad buy a game that was marked M for Mature (17+ years) for his 10 year old son?
2) How is this the problem of anyone besides the dad who made the bad decision?
3) Why does government need to get involved in this industry too?
4) Why is the industry always blamed for the parents' obvious lack of interest in their child's lives?


Ok.. I need to get off my soapbox. But keep in mind, this affects us all who play AND make video games.

#22 I've heard it again and again in this thread...

Quote:
It's causing a ruckus because Rockstar shipped metrial that many do not deem appropriate for underage viewing - at least not without parental consent and/or guidance.

M = Mature (17+ years of age)

So, there's essentially a bunch of 17 year-olds being exposed to this? Well, no... we all know that this has been exposed to children much younger. Why??

Because, when parents go to the store they don't bother to consider what the rating is on the game. They just buy or rent it for their underage child. It's not Rockstar, or the ESRB's responsibility to post people at the stores to alert parents of this problem. It isn't the responsibility of Blockbuster or Hollywood Video or even Best Buy to keep this content out of the hands of minors. It is the person who purchased or rented it (usually the parent in the case of young children)

We can't blame the makers of games... That is just plain idiotic.

- Brett

#23 Brett - why is it that *do you think* that Rockstar locked or hid the content in the first place.

Do you think it may have been to garner a better rating from the ESRB?

And this behvaior doesn't actually circumvent the ratings we have in place?

I certainly think it does, and that it's Rockstar's fault.

Blaming everyone else for content THEY put in THEIR game is just plain idiotic...

#24 Brett - your point that parents need to be involved in the media their children consume is a valid and important one.

but in addition, media publishers should simply not be shipping content which they claim they aren't.

#25 @Kirby: No, I don't think they should just be let loose just cause porn is easy to access. I just mean that I really have a problem seeing how pimping girls deserves less of an adult rating than having sex with them, and for what it's gonna change (Which is to say, absolutely nothing), it's a waste of time and effort.

And I agree with you, under the current circumstances, and with the way the current system is rigged, what happenned had to happen. And in general, I'd say nobody got hurt too badly in the process.

I worked at a company for two years and I remember we couldn't put any religious symbols in our games, not even the christian cross. To me, That was absolutely retarded. Humanity as a whole needs to grow up and learn to act like adults.

But it's a real dangerous line to walk...Publishers, game devs, the ESRB AND parents have to take their responsibilities seriously. I just think the current system just gives too much power to people who crave attention and who believe that the world owes them. Life ain't all black and white, and we're all in this together.

@Brett : Love the example :) I had pictured some mother who came back home and saw her kid playing this, and got offended. The last thing the parent is going to do is try to discuss it with the child. But write to congress, and punish the child, hey that's the way to do it. Why not beat him up just to show him how wrong he was? (Sarcasm, people)


Peace

#26 Duly noted Simon, and as I previously stated, I do agree that there needs to be more clarity bewteen rating distinctions.

If you're an avid PA reader, you can consider me in the same boat with Tycho where that is concerned.

The thing that bothers me at the very core of this is, you HAVE to do something about a situation like this or essentially, your rating system loses all credibility, not only in the eyes of developers, but more importantly by consumers.

I agree on the point that underage exposure to the game exceeds the jurisdiction of the current (mature) rating, but then, so does the content.

Incidentally, there ARE parents out there who pay attention to these types of things. They just don't make for exciting news stories and, therefore, get no press.

As a result, the perception seems to have evolved that only "lazy parents" are the ones who get up in arms on issues like these, which isn't necessarily true.

The fact is, it isn't the lazy parents who are affected by somethig like this (circumventing the rating system I mean), it's the ones who try to make intellegent choices based on the information they're given - what happens if they decide they can no longer trust that information?

#27 If a parent doesn't care enough to read the game description on the back of box then it's their fault. Forget about the hidden-content issue we're dealing with here. The advertised description/features should be enough to keep the parent of any minor from buying this game. I do not want the federal government legislating morality, period. That's a sure-fire sign of worse things to come.

I do however think RockStar should have owned up to having the hidden content in game. The series of steps required to unlock this content could very well be considered an exploit. And, what happens to any other game with an exploit. That's right, it gets patched!

OR

Leave such matters up to each individual state, as it was originally intended in the constitution. If you don't like the rules of the state you are living in then you can always move. And that's not a joke.

#28 The ones who try to make intellegent choices based on the information they're given - what happens if they decide they can no longer trust that information?

Point taken! Didn't see it that way :) Well, that shut me up :)

#29 Bill Gates had no idea that the group of developers working on Excel built in a fully functional flight sim. He also didn't know that the developers had made a clone of Spy Hunter... Is this Bill's fault? Is it Microsoft's? If it had questionable material in it and they were posting how to unlock it, then yes -- they are basically shipping the questionable material.

However, if Rockstar execs didn't know it was in there when they initially made their comments then who can fault them for what their developers did? Additionally if the content was indeed locked away from direct access (ie: required a patch of some sort) then why should we be blaming them? They took precautions to make the game fall within guidelines. I remember Carmageddon 2 came out with "green blood" so it could be sold as being "less violent". Well, shortly thereafter a patch showed up to make the blood red. OMG!! We now need to go back and make the developers of Carma 2 eat crow?? No.. because they locked it up and someone else unlocked it.

Here, let's make this conversation out to be what it really is... just stupid people bickering about something that is stupid and shouldn't have garnered as much attention as it did:

Let's say I have a safe, and I lock up my guns in it and then ship it via UPS. The driver stops and some kid hops in and cracks the safe and uses my guns to kill someone else. Is it my fault? I took the precaution to lock them up. I didn't intend that someone would go in and crack the safe, although I knew it was possible. Should I get a black mark on my record because of this?

- Brett

#30

Quote:Holding the original developers responsible for content created by third parties.

It was Rockstar that put that content in the game and then hid it knowing that a game that popular will be explored in every detail.

Quote:ESRB's statement about all content must be made available to them upon review.

That's the way it should have been from the beginning.

I own a PS2 copy of San Andreas and I personally don't care either way if the content is in or not. But I think the bottom line is that Rockstar wants Wal-Mart to carry GTA:SA. Wal-Mart doesn't carry "AO" rated games. So now Rockstar has to fix the game to make it "M" rated again. Let the politicians bark and cry. Who cares about them.
-Ajari-

#31 Brett, I see your point. I really do.

The issue I'm taking here is that the UPS driver wasn't told he was carrying a safe full of loaded guns, nor (in this case) was the intended recipient.

The fact is, the rating system isn't going away and, as aspiring developers it's a system we're subject to.

Actions like this (meaning Rockstar) undermine our credibility as aspiring (or established ;) developers with the buying public as a byproduct of undermining the credibility of the ESRB.

I take serious issue with that.

I do apologize for coming off so harshly previously.

#32

Quote:The fact is, the rating system isn't going away and, as aspiring developers it's a system we're subject to.

You have to apply for a rating, it's voluntary.

Quote:3) Why does government need to get involved in this industry too?

We are self regulating, until we prove that we can't handle the responsibility. Then someone else will regulate for us.

#33

Quote:
The issue I'm taking here is that the UPS driver wasn't told he was carrying a safe full of loaded guns, nor (in this case) was the intended recipient.

Right, and no one was told that Rockstar had included these risque sex scenes that almost rate pornography. Someone found it and exploited it, and Rockstar is now going to pay for it. It's a black mark against them.

Quote:
I do apologize for coming off so harshly previously.

No worries.. I do enjoy good debate.

- Brett

#34

Quote:You have to apply for a rating, it's voluntary.

You're correct of course, although, for those wishing to truly compete in the boxed market (i.e. WalMart!) it's hardly voluntary.

Poor wording on my behalf. (C;

Quote:We are self regulating, until we prove that we can't handle the responsibility. Then someone else will regulate for us.

Well said.

Quote:Right, and no one was told that Rockstar had included these risque sex scenes that almost rate pornography. Someone found it and exploited it, and Rockstar is now going to pay for it. It's a black mark against them.

That's what I'm saying though - we all knew Rockstar was shipping guns, but according to them ( via ESRB) those guns weren't loaded when -in truth- they were.

Where this will ultimately come down hard on them is the loss of a large retailer.

I'd be surprised if the next product submission from Rockstar is granted shelf space at Wally world, but then... money talks. =\

#35 Lies are lies......claiming ignorance is futile. Someone in the 'chain of command' allowed this to occur. The Project Mangager/Producer of this should be held accountable. If they claim 'ignorance' of what was under their supervision, then they should be instantly fired. They just showed their lack of any 'supervisory' position or SKILL. Blinders on is no excuse.

Quote:We are self regulating, until we prove that we can't handle the responsibility. Then someone else will regulate for us.

...sorry but; the stunt just pulled by RockStar, just proved otherwise.....and you'll get involvement by the government at a certain point. A few years ago when the rating system was invoked, that wasn't enough 'warning' of things to come if changes weren't made. They appear to have not changed at all.... Look what illegal steroid use as done to the entire image of 'professional' sports, and the fallout.

I guess there is enough time to spare shipping a MAJOR AAA title, to produce art content and code for 'fun', ah, but not enough 'time' to double check the work. I can't see the forest for all the trees in the way....! It never ceases to amaze me when people say two different things in the same run-on sentence....;).

Any of these ongoing 'excuses' are pure lame-i-tude.....SOMEONE knew what was going on.....am I wrong?! Oh, that's right, the Art/Code gremlins were at work again.

This is a Pandora's box that was opened without any forethought, except to pander to the lowest common demoninator for ???.....and will force changes on the WHOLE, while the few escape any repercussions....what a farce.

Balance what was gained by what was lost.....and results are:

#36 Rex, especially considering the size of GTA, how long do you think it would have taken to remove every line of erroneous code? Just to compare, Zelda: The Wind Waker is about as polished and solid as games get. Yet, there were large segments of the game that were cut from final release just sitting in there.

Anology time! You have guns at home, locked in a safe to which you only have the key. Someone breaks in, busts open the safe and hands the gun, loaded, to your kid. Is it your fault for having the gun in the first place?

#37 I'm shocked nobody has brought this up yet...

The thing requires a memory hack. That's all a GameShark code is...a memory hack. It's a $30, publically available memory hack, but it's still a memory hack. Stretch this just a bit further, and you could hold a DRM company responsible for people pirating your software because they used a publically available memory hack. Totally stupid? Yeah, but that's essentially what is happening to Rockstar.

I really don't see that situation any more insaine than holding a company who shipped a raited M game, (which covers sexual content) accountable because a user can memory hack to take a different codepath to have access to less sexual content than the scene in Team America: World Police (which was raited R, 17+).

This whole thing is beyond stupid. Rockstar should have removed the content...but then again, there was probably content that shipped in Marble Blast that wasn't accessable but didn't get removed. (Hot Marble Mod incomming!!!) Now, granted, it was probably one texture or one DIF or something, but still...small game, small overlooks, bigger game, bigger overlooks.

If they did this purposefully, shame on them, at least if this was a marketing decision or whatever. If it was a few jokers, they should probably get fired. This case will hurt the game industry for a long, long time, set very dangerous precidents, and provide more ammunition to these "Parent" groups who, for some reason, focus on everything BUT parenting.

#38 Matt, come on. 'Erroneous' code, that's absurd. Hours spent producing content and code shows directed intent, in my mind, perhaps a jury's too. I agree with Pat, you have not heard the last of this incident. What do you feel was gained by producing this content and code in the first place? The answering of why any of it was necessary is still not forthcomming....if it were necessary for the program, why was it not publically reported and marketed that way, eh?

I don't agree with your analogy about weapons locked away, though. I know there may be guns in locked gun vault, not that there may be illegal material for minors to view embedded and triggered to open upon command in a video game. I can conceptualize it, but don't expect to find it; whereas, I'd expect to find a weapon in a locked box. Who 'released' the key to the "locked box".

Few more pennies from Rex.

#39 I'm prepared to cut Rockstar some slack - they never figured on people digging up their stuff, but the fact is that its not "added content" at all. Its as if Harry Potter was printed on bleached porn, and someone found that by dipping pages in chemicals and viewing them under UV light, the original porn could be recovered. You could make a case that you reasonably didn't expect people to dig up the hidden material, but its not gonna count for much.

#40 "I don't agree with your analogy about weapons locked away, though. I know there may be guns in locked gun vault, not that there may be illegal material for minors to view embedded and triggered to open upon command in a video game. I can conceptualize it, but don't expect to find it; whereas, I'd expect to find a weapon in a locked box. Who 'released' the key to the "locked box"."

Going by the ratings given to GTA originally, wouldn't it be illegal for minors to have the content in the first place? If it was in something like Elmo's Number Parade, then I would be more concerned, but GTA is an adult game, aimed at adults.