Does Blender suck or rule?
by Jeff Gran · in Artist Corner · 05/25/2005 (1:08 pm) · 116 replies
I am experienced with the modeling and animating tools in both MAX and Maya, and I've recently downloaded Blender to try it out.
I have read many testimonials about how Blender is actually a very easy to use, fast, efficient tool. After an admittedly limited test run with it, I have to disagree. And not just because it's different than what I'm used to. It seems like a not-quite-there-yet version of a professional tool.
Some examples of things I have a problem with initially:
You can't customise your hotkeys, from what I can find. To me this is one of the most powerful features of the professional tools, that you can customize your interface to be what works for YOU, not what some guy or guys (or gals) deemed was the best interface.
Right-click to select, left click for "blender gesture system" to jump into transform mode... WHY? left click to select in any other application I can think of. This is not faster than the other way around, and is just annoying.
Alt-B to draw a selection-box (which uses the left mouse button, which is not consistent with non-box selection) This is not faster than not having to press two buttons before dragging a selection box.
You can only select vertices. There is an option to select faces or edges, but only in rings, and once you do, the result is that you have selected the vertices that belong to those faces or edges, not the faces or edges themselves. While it is true that it is not necessary to select the higher level sub-object elements, it is very helpful, especially when visualizing the actions you are about to take on the model. It's also faster to select a single face than to individually select the 3 or 4 verts that make it up. And the hotkeys for edge and face selecting are wacky... they don't even use the same modifier (one uses ALT and the other CTRL, if I remember correctly).
I actually do like Blender's customizeable windows system, cause you can make the window in whatever configuration you want, and zoom out and move around (like Maya's hypergraph, which rocks, and which is how I want my OS to work).
Also, I did some searching for professional-quality models made with Blender, and couldn't find any. Looking through the elysiun forums (semi-official blender repository), even the people who were trying to educate the noobs were showing poor modeling skills, and I only found one organic model (an orc head) which was mediocre in quality. Can anyone give me a link to something that would prove that Blender can be used to good effect?
I want to make it clear that I have an open mind about this, and most of the reason I'm starting this thread is in hopes that someone can convince me that I am wrong. Obviously I also would need to USE the tool more and see if I can get used to it and adjust my modeling style accordingly, but I'm interested to hear others' opinions and experiences. When I first opened Blender and started going through the tutorials, I was thinking it would be awesome... the world needs a good free 3D editor... but now I'm thinking that without heavy modifications this is not it.
Discussion! Prove me wrong!
I have read many testimonials about how Blender is actually a very easy to use, fast, efficient tool. After an admittedly limited test run with it, I have to disagree. And not just because it's different than what I'm used to. It seems like a not-quite-there-yet version of a professional tool.
Some examples of things I have a problem with initially:
You can't customise your hotkeys, from what I can find. To me this is one of the most powerful features of the professional tools, that you can customize your interface to be what works for YOU, not what some guy or guys (or gals) deemed was the best interface.
Right-click to select, left click for "blender gesture system" to jump into transform mode... WHY? left click to select in any other application I can think of. This is not faster than the other way around, and is just annoying.
Alt-B to draw a selection-box (which uses the left mouse button, which is not consistent with non-box selection) This is not faster than not having to press two buttons before dragging a selection box.
You can only select vertices. There is an option to select faces or edges, but only in rings, and once you do, the result is that you have selected the vertices that belong to those faces or edges, not the faces or edges themselves. While it is true that it is not necessary to select the higher level sub-object elements, it is very helpful, especially when visualizing the actions you are about to take on the model. It's also faster to select a single face than to individually select the 3 or 4 verts that make it up. And the hotkeys for edge and face selecting are wacky... they don't even use the same modifier (one uses ALT and the other CTRL, if I remember correctly).
I actually do like Blender's customizeable windows system, cause you can make the window in whatever configuration you want, and zoom out and move around (like Maya's hypergraph, which rocks, and which is how I want my OS to work).
Also, I did some searching for professional-quality models made with Blender, and couldn't find any. Looking through the elysiun forums (semi-official blender repository), even the people who were trying to educate the noobs were showing poor modeling skills, and I only found one organic model (an orc head) which was mediocre in quality. Can anyone give me a link to something that would prove that Blender can be used to good effect?
I want to make it clear that I have an open mind about this, and most of the reason I'm starting this thread is in hopes that someone can convince me that I am wrong. Obviously I also would need to USE the tool more and see if I can get used to it and adjust my modeling style accordingly, but I'm interested to hear others' opinions and experiences. When I first opened Blender and started going through the tutorials, I was thinking it would be awesome... the world needs a good free 3D editor... but now I'm thinking that without heavy modifications this is not it.
Discussion! Prove me wrong!
#82
It can be. It's open source. I'm planning to learn Python (I hear it's easy) and see if I can't write some new modelling tools and customize the interface so I can work faster with it. Dreamer has already offered to help with this too, and in fact has already started poking at the code with a list of changes I asked him to make. And after all, I have guys on both sides of me at work writing 3D modeling tools for Constructor, so it's the perfect resource to ask how to do something I don't have a grasp on yet.
I'm sorry if I came off as trying to be authoritative, when obviously I'm not. I posted everything I posted to show people my frustration, and to find out if I was right or wrong about it being slower. Even the title of the thread is a question, not a statement. I could have spent a longer time learning for myself, but.... well, this is what communities are for, right?
Um, maybe I'm really being inept on this one... but I still can't find it. I've googled the documentation site for everything I thought might bring up the way to do this but still could not find it. Maybe you could help me out by letting me know?
05/27/2005 (10:15 pm)
Quote:At the end of the day Blender is not a Max, Maya beater. It never will be.
It can be. It's open source. I'm planning to learn Python (I hear it's easy) and see if I can't write some new modelling tools and customize the interface so I can work faster with it. Dreamer has already offered to help with this too, and in fact has already started poking at the code with a list of changes I asked him to make. And after all, I have guys on both sides of me at work writing 3D modeling tools for Constructor, so it's the perfect resource to ask how to do something I don't have a grasp on yet.
Quote:Jeff, I think, you're not really objective. Generally, before give a bad or a good critic to something, i read a lot about it. Why? to avoid announcing false things (I really don't like this).
I'm sorry if I came off as trying to be authoritative, when obviously I'm not. I posted everything I posted to show people my frustration, and to find out if I was right or wrong about it being slower. Even the title of the thread is a question, not a statement. I could have spent a longer time learning for myself, but.... well, this is what communities are for, right?
Quote::o :(( Find it ! (it's done in One click, Ooops sorry :) 1click for dropping down the menu, and one click to select the save point)
Um, maybe I'm really being inept on this one... but I still can't find it. I've googled the documentation site for everything I thought might bring up the way to do this but still could not find it. Maybe you could help me out by letting me know?
#83
Press ctrl up-arrow to go full screen on any window
While in edit mode you can also change vertices, faces, edges select mode by clicking the icons near the bottom right of the edit screen. (4 dots, /, triangle)
05/28/2005 (2:42 am)
To weld vertice, just press alt M ( after selecting them ). You will then get a popup asking to merge at center or at the 3d cursor. Very quick.Press ctrl up-arrow to go full screen on any window
While in edit mode you can also change vertices, faces, edges select mode by clicking the icons near the bottom right of the edit screen. (4 dots, /, triangle)
#84
05/28/2005 (2:45 am)
Can someone build the dtsSDKplus into the Blender source? Or perhaps a stand-alone app that can read a .blend file and spit out a .dts
#85
Jeff, for me it's hilarious that you brought this topic up so recently. At present I'm debating about purchasing a commercial license for Maya and in an attempt to hold onto the $, downloaded blender and played with it for the weekend.
whatta nightmare :-)
I swear, I have no idea how people seriously use the application, much less those of us familiar with commercial products. Good luck finding semi-decent organic models created with blender. I found some guys over at cgtalk who are awesome in the "blender world" and now that they've switched to maya they're even noticing a huge difference (and their work has improved, go figure).
05/29/2005 (9:43 pm)
>>Also, I did some searching for professional-quality models made with Blender, and couldn't find any. Looking through the elysiun forums (semi-official blender repository), even the people who were trying to educate the noobs were showing poor modeling skills, and I only found one organic model (an orc head) which was mediocre in quality. Can anyone give me a link to something that would prove that Blender can be used to good effect?Jeff, for me it's hilarious that you brought this topic up so recently. At present I'm debating about purchasing a commercial license for Maya and in an attempt to hold onto the $, downloaded blender and played with it for the weekend.
whatta nightmare :-)
I swear, I have no idea how people seriously use the application, much less those of us familiar with commercial products. Good luck finding semi-decent organic models created with blender. I found some guys over at cgtalk who are awesome in the "blender world" and now that they've switched to maya they're even noticing a huge difference (and their work has improved, go figure).
#86
@duncan- there is a Blender DTS exporter already- just search the resources section of this site.
05/29/2005 (10:04 pm)
@nathan- you should also look at Softimage XSI Foundation ($495 retail, $395 for CG society members). Matt Summer's team who wrote the excellent Gamespace/Truespace DTS exporter is working a XSI DTS exporter, reportedly.@duncan- there is a Blender DTS exporter already- just search the resources section of this site.
#87
@Nathan, you and others like you should not knock a product that's free just because you have a high end budget and little regard for anyone beneath your spending level. Did you stop to consider how your words will affect those people who do use Blender for financial or other reasons?
05/30/2005 (2:03 pm)
@Alex, that exporter's LOD's don't show up in game and being stuck with a single detail level is not much use to anyone. Appart from that it's a damn good exporter.@Nathan, you and others like you should not knock a product that's free just because you have a high end budget and little regard for anyone beneath your spending level. Did you stop to consider how your words will affect those people who do use Blender for financial or other reasons?
#88
05/30/2005 (2:14 pm)
The blender dts exporter supports "- Detail Levels, including Collision, LOS(Line of Sight), and Billboard details " according to it's resource page
#89
05/30/2005 (2:18 pm)
To support multiple LODs you need to create empties for them Detail32 Detail10 etc, then parent them to the mesh
#90
05/30/2005 (2:38 pm)
Blender can do some really awesome kickass stuff and some solid rendering, but I find it very unorganized and it sort of sucks that a lot of the old modeling techniques don't work well with it. I think it is really cool that it has all those features, but if you're using it to make Torque models you should pick up a copy of Milkshape, Quark, or if you have a good budget, 3DS Max or Maya.
#91
I have investigated finding a work-around in the engine render code but the bottom line is that the LOD's are incorrectly exported from Blender and so far it seems no-one knows how to fix it.
If your LOD's do actually work in the game, not just the show tool then you are about to become a hero if you post your working .blend file to that thread.
05/30/2005 (4:39 pm)
@Dreamer, I'm well aware of how to set it up for LOD's but they still don't show up in the game. The author is aware of it too as are many other people. See this thread.I have investigated finding a work-around in the engine render code but the bottom line is that the LOD's are incorrectly exported from Blender and so far it seems no-one knows how to fix it.
If your LOD's do actually work in the game, not just the show tool then you are about to become a hero if you post your working .blend file to that thread.
#92
Alex
05/30/2005 (5:47 pm)
That sucks that the LODs are working in ShowToolPro but not in-game. Good luck with it!Alex
#93
>>Nathan, you and others like you should not knock a product that's free just because you have a high end budget and little regard for anyone beneath your spending level. Did you stop to consider how your words will affect those people who do use Blender for financial or other reasons?
@Duncan, I mean no disrespect to those using the application (especially if they're doing so for commercial work! lol) -- in fact, my comments have nothing to do with users of the app. My concerns mirrored Jeff's original post in that the problems are within the app, not the artists. I apologize for being blunt.
More power to the guys using blender on a daily basis.
05/31/2005 (7:50 am)
@Alex, thanks for the heads up. I might actually look into XSI for that price :-) I know training material for the app are much more scarce than for Maya/Max though.>>Nathan, you and others like you should not knock a product that's free just because you have a high end budget and little regard for anyone beneath your spending level. Did you stop to consider how your words will affect those people who do use Blender for financial or other reasons?
@Duncan, I mean no disrespect to those using the application (especially if they're doing so for commercial work! lol) -- in fact, my comments have nothing to do with users of the app. My concerns mirrored Jeff's original post in that the problems are within the app, not the artists. I apologize for being blunt.
More power to the guys using blender on a daily basis.
#94
06/02/2005 (5:26 pm)
DOOOD! Blender 2.37 just got released, and it has the transform gizmo, planar constraints, and lots of other cool stuff in it. I can't wait to play with it, but the ftp site seems to be slashdotted at the moment. :(
#95
This sucks, cuz I can't seem to get 2.37 to compile with the changes I made to 2.36 :( Oh well back to the drawing board.
06/02/2005 (6:39 pm)
ROFLMAO @JeffThis sucks, cuz I can't seem to get 2.37 to compile with the changes I made to 2.36 :( Oh well back to the drawing board.
#96
The other day, however, there was a new tutorial on gamedev.net that I followed, and I have to say, I am impressed with Blender thus far. I have not used Max or Maya, etc and perhaps in comparison to them it sucks, but my budget can barely afford Milkshape. I will definately be using Blender for some static meshes, and hopefully for animated ones as well, but I have not had a chance to try its animation capabilities.
06/02/2005 (9:19 pm)
I disliked Blender immensely when I first downloaded it, and it's just sat there unused on my HD. I'm a programmer, and I use my modelers to make stand-ins until an artist can do the model, or I make final copies of simple things like crates or switches, etc. Previously, I've used Milkshape for this. The other day, however, there was a new tutorial on gamedev.net that I followed, and I have to say, I am impressed with Blender thus far. I have not used Max or Maya, etc and perhaps in comparison to them it sucks, but my budget can barely afford Milkshape. I will definately be using Blender for some static meshes, and hopefully for animated ones as well, but I have not had a chance to try its animation capabilities.
#97
...and Blender is the r0X0rs for creating 1337 programmer art :P
Sorry, I'm just jealous of artists and I'm curious to see what their actual requirements are here. I am a fan of the content packs and I think the artists in this community could make some $$ if they advertised an hourly rate for custom content. i.e. the experienced artists could charge hourly rate and the amateurs could charge by the job.
06/03/2005 (11:17 am)
Quote:I'm a programmer, and I use my modelers to make stand-ins until an artist can do the model
...and Blender is the r0X0rs for creating 1337 programmer art :P
Sorry, I'm just jealous of artists and I'm curious to see what their actual requirements are here. I am a fan of the content packs and I think the artists in this community could make some $$ if they advertised an hourly rate for custom content. i.e. the experienced artists could charge hourly rate and the amateurs could charge by the job.
#98
That's really not the way it works... most artists I know charge by the job. It's simply easier to mange things that way. If you really prefer to pay by the hour though that's of course fine by me. =)
If you need anything done you're more than welcome to contact me for a quote.
"Advertising rates" probably never going to happen, every job is different so you really have to take a look at what needs to be done before you can come up with an accurate quote.
06/03/2005 (11:28 am)
Quote:the experienced artists could charge hourly rate and the amateurs could charge by the job.
That's really not the way it works... most artists I know charge by the job. It's simply easier to mange things that way. If you really prefer to pay by the hour though that's of course fine by me. =)
If you need anything done you're more than welcome to contact me for a quote.
"Advertising rates" probably never going to happen, every job is different so you really have to take a look at what needs to be done before you can come up with an accurate quote.
#99
I totally agree. :-)
06/03/2005 (2:12 pm)
>>"Advertising rates" probably never going to happen, every job is different so you really have to take a look at what needs to be done before you can come up with an accurate quote.I totally agree. :-)
#100
EDIT: Maybe past examples of doing this for that much etc
06/03/2005 (2:26 pm)
True that you can't really advertise an accurate general quote, maybe give examples of what you would charge, that way people may get an idea of what it would be compared to what they want.EDIT: Maybe past examples of doing this for that much etc
Torque Owner Jeff Gran
Don't know what you mean by yaw, rotation, etc. When I use a gizmo it always does exactly what I want it to, nothing more, nothing less. That said, I'm definitely warming up to the idea of this new and different method of transforming things. I tried out Wings last night, and my initial reaction was, "this is kind of like Blender, but easier". It has the same style of (1)move/rotate/scale mode, (2)select axis for constraint, (3) automatically transforming by moving the mouse, click to release.
I think the main thing that drove me crazy when using Blender the other day was that I was using the click-drag "gesture" to go into grab mode. I figured, the LMB is the number one input action, so it must be mapped to something very useful. All this talk about how Blender is a "new and different way" of doing things made me want to try it out. But it sounds like the GKEY is the way to go with this. Same with MMB for constraining axes... I was doing that and should have been using the x, y, and z keys.
Again, this is why I started this thread, so in my mind, it's working. I'm learning the fast way to use Blender.
This is a misunderstanding. What I said about A and then B is different from the Alt-B thing, which is not even correct (I was wrong). Alt-B turns out to be select edge-loop mode. A, then B, is what I have to do to (1) AKEY for deselect, and (2) re-enter box-select mode. I select with boxes a lot. The default in Blender is that box mode adds to your selection, so you HAVE to deselect before you can make a new, different selectino with a box. So, I go: [B, drag], [G, X, click], [A, B, drag], [G, Y, click] to move two different sets of points on different axes. In another program, I might go: [drag], [drag], [drag], [drag], in other words, [box select], [drag along the x axis of the gizmo], [box select], [drag along the y axis of the gizmo]. If the gizmo is too small for you, both other programs I know will let you make them bigger to your taste. They can go across the whole screen if you want. They also give you access to the planes, which AFAIK you can't get even with the menus or hotkeys in Blender.