Does Blender suck or rule?
by Jeff Gran · in Artist Corner · 05/25/2005 (1:08 pm) · 116 replies
I am experienced with the modeling and animating tools in both MAX and Maya, and I've recently downloaded Blender to try it out.
I have read many testimonials about how Blender is actually a very easy to use, fast, efficient tool. After an admittedly limited test run with it, I have to disagree. And not just because it's different than what I'm used to. It seems like a not-quite-there-yet version of a professional tool.
Some examples of things I have a problem with initially:
You can't customise your hotkeys, from what I can find. To me this is one of the most powerful features of the professional tools, that you can customize your interface to be what works for YOU, not what some guy or guys (or gals) deemed was the best interface.
Right-click to select, left click for "blender gesture system" to jump into transform mode... WHY? left click to select in any other application I can think of. This is not faster than the other way around, and is just annoying.
Alt-B to draw a selection-box (which uses the left mouse button, which is not consistent with non-box selection) This is not faster than not having to press two buttons before dragging a selection box.
You can only select vertices. There is an option to select faces or edges, but only in rings, and once you do, the result is that you have selected the vertices that belong to those faces or edges, not the faces or edges themselves. While it is true that it is not necessary to select the higher level sub-object elements, it is very helpful, especially when visualizing the actions you are about to take on the model. It's also faster to select a single face than to individually select the 3 or 4 verts that make it up. And the hotkeys for edge and face selecting are wacky... they don't even use the same modifier (one uses ALT and the other CTRL, if I remember correctly).
I actually do like Blender's customizeable windows system, cause you can make the window in whatever configuration you want, and zoom out and move around (like Maya's hypergraph, which rocks, and which is how I want my OS to work).
Also, I did some searching for professional-quality models made with Blender, and couldn't find any. Looking through the elysiun forums (semi-official blender repository), even the people who were trying to educate the noobs were showing poor modeling skills, and I only found one organic model (an orc head) which was mediocre in quality. Can anyone give me a link to something that would prove that Blender can be used to good effect?
I want to make it clear that I have an open mind about this, and most of the reason I'm starting this thread is in hopes that someone can convince me that I am wrong. Obviously I also would need to USE the tool more and see if I can get used to it and adjust my modeling style accordingly, but I'm interested to hear others' opinions and experiences. When I first opened Blender and started going through the tutorials, I was thinking it would be awesome... the world needs a good free 3D editor... but now I'm thinking that without heavy modifications this is not it.
Discussion! Prove me wrong!
I have read many testimonials about how Blender is actually a very easy to use, fast, efficient tool. After an admittedly limited test run with it, I have to disagree. And not just because it's different than what I'm used to. It seems like a not-quite-there-yet version of a professional tool.
Some examples of things I have a problem with initially:
You can't customise your hotkeys, from what I can find. To me this is one of the most powerful features of the professional tools, that you can customize your interface to be what works for YOU, not what some guy or guys (or gals) deemed was the best interface.
Right-click to select, left click for "blender gesture system" to jump into transform mode... WHY? left click to select in any other application I can think of. This is not faster than the other way around, and is just annoying.
Alt-B to draw a selection-box (which uses the left mouse button, which is not consistent with non-box selection) This is not faster than not having to press two buttons before dragging a selection box.
You can only select vertices. There is an option to select faces or edges, but only in rings, and once you do, the result is that you have selected the vertices that belong to those faces or edges, not the faces or edges themselves. While it is true that it is not necessary to select the higher level sub-object elements, it is very helpful, especially when visualizing the actions you are about to take on the model. It's also faster to select a single face than to individually select the 3 or 4 verts that make it up. And the hotkeys for edge and face selecting are wacky... they don't even use the same modifier (one uses ALT and the other CTRL, if I remember correctly).
I actually do like Blender's customizeable windows system, cause you can make the window in whatever configuration you want, and zoom out and move around (like Maya's hypergraph, which rocks, and which is how I want my OS to work).
Also, I did some searching for professional-quality models made with Blender, and couldn't find any. Looking through the elysiun forums (semi-official blender repository), even the people who were trying to educate the noobs were showing poor modeling skills, and I only found one organic model (an orc head) which was mediocre in quality. Can anyone give me a link to something that would prove that Blender can be used to good effect?
I want to make it clear that I have an open mind about this, and most of the reason I'm starting this thread is in hopes that someone can convince me that I am wrong. Obviously I also would need to USE the tool more and see if I can get used to it and adjust my modeling style accordingly, but I'm interested to hear others' opinions and experiences. When I first opened Blender and started going through the tutorials, I was thinking it would be awesome... the world needs a good free 3D editor... but now I'm thinking that without heavy modifications this is not it.
Discussion! Prove me wrong!
#62
Great! Now I can select faces. Ctrl-Esc to cycle through the selection modes brings up the start menu for me... maybe the windows keybind is overriding Blender's? But ctrl-tab to choose between selection modes works (brings up a popup menu. Not my ideal choice of key combo for this, but it works, and I can get used to it. I'm also surprised that this info wasn't included in the "basic modelling" tutorial in the docs... this seems like one of the most basic functions of a 3d modeling program.
OK, you're right, that works. Then you still would have to go and "remove doubles", because the actions you described only moved the verts to a single point, but did not merge them.
You bring up a good point, though. Using the 3D Cursor. I had avoided it so far because it is alien to me... I couldn't see how it was useful. Now I have found one way: The problem it solves is that now I can "target weld". I do this by: (1)select the target vertex,(2)shift-S for snap mode (3) cursor to selection, (4) Shift - select unwanted vertex, (5) wkey for weld (6) choose "at cursor" from the popup menu.
Maya:(1)select unwanted vert, (2) hold ckey and drag to snap to vertices, (3) select both verts with a box (4) short-range merge hotkey
MAX:(1)target-weld hotkey, (2)click-drag from unwanted vert to target vert.
Edge: 6-4(2) against Blender.
*********************
I'm digging the feedback. Does anyone else have any tips as to how to use the 3D cursor efficiently? This is one of those things that us non-Blenderites don't really "get" right off the bat.
Can anyone tell me how to constrain movement to a plane instead of just an axis, without going into a 2d ortho-view?
Alternatively, is there a way to quickly switch back and forth between your perspective and ortho views, and have it remember the orientation of your perspective view when you switch back? Currently all I can do is change my ortho to a perspective, then rotate back to where I want to be... I want to be able to switch between multiple saved viewpoints with a click or hotkey.
Dreamer: I guess I'm not quite ready to send off a list to you... as others have pointed out, I still need to keep working at it and find out what the fastest current ways of doing things are, and then figure out how I would want it to work ideally. For one though, if you can eliminate the BKey and make that the default left-click-drag action, and switch the left and right mouse buttons (RMB for 3d cursor and LMB for select), that would kickass.
05/26/2005 (12:20 pm)
Everyone: Wow! 35 posts between 3AM and 11AM... I started a hell of a discussion, didn't I? Thank you all for keeping it positive and professional, and not starting a flame war.Quote:That s wrong ! you can select faces! :o :)) How can I select faces? So... Switch in UV Face select mode (first combo in 3D view, after View - Select - Face menus)
Right click on face you want to select. (Holding SHIFT allow you to select many faces)
Quote:Ctrl-esc: Change between Face, Vertices and edge mode.
Selections remain across modes so you can select a few faces then go to vertices and they will be selected.
Great! Now I can select faces. Ctrl-Esc to cycle through the selection modes brings up the start menu for me... maybe the windows keybind is overriding Blender's? But ctrl-tab to choose between selection modes works (brings up a popup menu. Not my ideal choice of key combo for this, but it works, and I can get used to it. I'm also surprised that this info wasn't included in the "basic modelling" tutorial in the docs... this seems like one of the most basic functions of a 3d modeling program.
Quote:You should do this :
(1) Select faces (see previous message), (2) Place your cursor where you want to merge vertices (Left Click), (3) Shift-S, (4) Selection to cursor. That's Done !
OK, you're right, that works. Then you still would have to go and "remove doubles", because the actions you described only moved the verts to a single point, but did not merge them.
You bring up a good point, though. Using the 3D Cursor. I had avoided it so far because it is alien to me... I couldn't see how it was useful. Now I have found one way: The problem it solves is that now I can "target weld". I do this by: (1)select the target vertex,(2)shift-S for snap mode (3) cursor to selection, (4) Shift - select unwanted vertex, (5) wkey for weld (6) choose "at cursor" from the popup menu.
Maya:(1)select unwanted vert, (2) hold ckey and drag to snap to vertices, (3) select both verts with a box (4) short-range merge hotkey
MAX:(1)target-weld hotkey, (2)click-drag from unwanted vert to target vert.
Edge: 6-4(2) against Blender.
*********************
I'm digging the feedback. Does anyone else have any tips as to how to use the 3D cursor efficiently? This is one of those things that us non-Blenderites don't really "get" right off the bat.
Can anyone tell me how to constrain movement to a plane instead of just an axis, without going into a 2d ortho-view?
Alternatively, is there a way to quickly switch back and forth between your perspective and ortho views, and have it remember the orientation of your perspective view when you switch back? Currently all I can do is change my ortho to a perspective, then rotate back to where I want to be... I want to be able to switch between multiple saved viewpoints with a click or hotkey.
Dreamer: I guess I'm not quite ready to send off a list to you... as others have pointed out, I still need to keep working at it and find out what the fastest current ways of doing things are, and then figure out how I would want it to work ideally. For one though, if you can eliminate the BKey and make that the default left-click-drag action, and switch the left and right mouse buttons (RMB for 3d cursor and LMB for select), that would kickass.
#63
So does acceptance in the artistic community require an improved interface and would that be a realistic project?
05/26/2005 (1:49 pm)
I want to affrim that Joe M. carries a lot of weight around here and for good reason. I also don't think anyone will argue that it's possible to produce good work with Blender and that Python is a great platform to develop such an application.So does acceptance in the artistic community require an improved interface and would that be a realistic project?
#64
@Jeff: Sorry dude, thats Ctrl-Tab :(
I was an artist first and a programmer second so I come at this from an unusual standpoint.
Artistic vision
I find that most 3d apps overcomplicate things with the 4 views idea. The programmer in me likes the information, but often it just confuses the artist in me as I switch between left and right hemispheres. The same is true of all the toolbar and menu based interfaces on most standard apps. I have to leave the model to go and trawl menus and toolbars.
Kirby Webber
I must agree with Kirby, once anything in life is comfortable it becomes hard to change. The reason is that when your using a new app, you brain is trying an awful lot harder to process info. You are trying to discover and remember a new way of thinking and operating and all your brain is saying is 'This is harder, can't we use what we already know!'
When you repeat an action repetively your subconscious takes over the task to a certain degree, thats why you stop thinking about your doing and just do it 'naturally'. Thats where our difficulty to retrain comes from, its also that a lot of us feel a bit inferior when we can't use something and blame the tool and not our skills.
05/26/2005 (2:30 pm)
@Trent: The interface is the whole point of this discussion. The way the interface is alien, if it just went max or mayas way, it wouldn't be blender any more.@Jeff: Sorry dude, thats Ctrl-Tab :(
I was an artist first and a programmer second so I come at this from an unusual standpoint.
Artistic vision
I find that most 3d apps overcomplicate things with the 4 views idea. The programmer in me likes the information, but often it just confuses the artist in me as I switch between left and right hemispheres. The same is true of all the toolbar and menu based interfaces on most standard apps. I have to leave the model to go and trawl menus and toolbars.
Kirby Webber
I must agree with Kirby, once anything in life is comfortable it becomes hard to change. The reason is that when your using a new app, you brain is trying an awful lot harder to process info. You are trying to discover and remember a new way of thinking and operating and all your brain is saying is 'This is harder, can't we use what we already know!'
When you repeat an action repetively your subconscious takes over the task to a certain degree, thats why you stop thinking about your doing and just do it 'naturally'. Thats where our difficulty to retrain comes from, its also that a lot of us feel a bit inferior when we can't use something and blame the tool and not our skills.
#65
05/26/2005 (2:52 pm)
True acceptance will come from competent people doing competent work slowly over time and unfortunately Blender is not at that level yet, nor anywhere close. The tools are too immature and highly talented artists that can/will make the application shine from all the grime it has on it are too few and far between for anyone to take notice.
#66
This is not a valid argument. Just because a program starts with four views open doesn't mean you have to leave it that way. I always model with a fullscreen perspective window. If I need to go to a top view or whatever for some reason, I hit the "t" key and I'm there, do my operation, and hit "p" and I'm back to my perspective. I can't find a way to do that in Blender (the number keys work, but they're waaaay over there, and besides, as stated above, I can't get back to my saved perspective view).
Secondly, I don't understand why you refer to all other packages besides Blender as menu-based. Sure, you can use the menus if you want (as you can in Blender), but power users do NOT use them for frequent commands. I believe I illustrated the fact that there is no menu-trawling involved in my faster workflows in the other two programs I know. It seems like maybe you don't know how to use the other tools you've tried efficiently, and since you do know blender like the back of your hand, you think it's faster.
I really wish the pro-Blender guys would stop falling back on this argument. I started with Maya. I then learned MAX, Zbrush, and QuArK. They all have radically different interface styles. But the thing is, they are optimized for speed and efficiency. Blender's is not. I pointed this out with several in-depth examples, and I'm really hoping that someone can tell me how to do these things faster, but I doubt there is a way. I'm hoping that someone can give me concrete examples on how Blender is in fact better or faster. It's not that I'm crying in my tea because the key commands aren't the same. You can tell me that I have to press a 5-key combination every time I want to select something, and I can learn to do it at warp-speed (because I always work at warp-speed), but that doesn't make it faster than doing the same thing with just a click.
Hopefully Dreamer and I can make some custom "fixes" to the interface to make it work more efficiently, and if that happens, I may adopt Blender as my main 3D application. Not sure how many here know this, but I DON'T own a licence to any professional 3D packages. I have used them at school and at the corporations I have worked at, but if I'm going to be an indie game artist, I need a legal tool to use.
05/26/2005 (4:09 pm)
Quote:I find that most 3d apps overcomplicate things with the 4 views idea. The programmer in me likes the information, but often it just confuses the artist in me as I switch between left and right hemispheres. The same is true of all the toolbar and menu based interfaces on most standard apps. I have to leave the model to go and trawl menus and toolbars.
This is not a valid argument. Just because a program starts with four views open doesn't mean you have to leave it that way. I always model with a fullscreen perspective window. If I need to go to a top view or whatever for some reason, I hit the "t" key and I'm there, do my operation, and hit "p" and I'm back to my perspective. I can't find a way to do that in Blender (the number keys work, but they're waaaay over there, and besides, as stated above, I can't get back to my saved perspective view).
Secondly, I don't understand why you refer to all other packages besides Blender as menu-based. Sure, you can use the menus if you want (as you can in Blender), but power users do NOT use them for frequent commands. I believe I illustrated the fact that there is no menu-trawling involved in my faster workflows in the other two programs I know. It seems like maybe you don't know how to use the other tools you've tried efficiently, and since you do know blender like the back of your hand, you think it's faster.
Quote:I must agree with Kirby, once anything in life is comfortable it becomes hard to change. The reason is that when your using a new app, you brain is trying an awful lot harder to process info. You are trying to discover and remember a new way of thinking and operating and all your brain is saying is 'This is harder, can't we use what we already know!'
When you repeat an action repetively your subconscious takes over the task to a certain degree, thats why you stop thinking about your doing and just do it 'naturally'. Thats where our difficulty to retrain comes from, its also that a lot of us feel a bit inferior when we can't use something and blame the tool and not our skills.
I really wish the pro-Blender guys would stop falling back on this argument. I started with Maya. I then learned MAX, Zbrush, and QuArK. They all have radically different interface styles. But the thing is, they are optimized for speed and efficiency. Blender's is not. I pointed this out with several in-depth examples, and I'm really hoping that someone can tell me how to do these things faster, but I doubt there is a way. I'm hoping that someone can give me concrete examples on how Blender is in fact better or faster. It's not that I'm crying in my tea because the key commands aren't the same. You can tell me that I have to press a 5-key combination every time I want to select something, and I can learn to do it at warp-speed (because I always work at warp-speed), but that doesn't make it faster than doing the same thing with just a click.
Hopefully Dreamer and I can make some custom "fixes" to the interface to make it work more efficiently, and if that happens, I may adopt Blender as my main 3D application. Not sure how many here know this, but I DON'T own a licence to any professional 3D packages. I have used them at school and at the corporations I have worked at, but if I'm going to be an indie game artist, I need a legal tool to use.
#67
Blender and the truespace UI's are amongst the worst I have tried, and simply can't get productive with them. Given a choice of cheapo tools, I'd probably use Wings3d for modeling and Unwrap3d for UV mapping. Not sure where to look for animation.
05/26/2005 (4:26 pm)
I didn't get far with blender for most of the same reasons. I played with it several times in th elast 5-6 years and wanted it to do well, but wasn't surprised when the original company promoting it went out of business. I used max, then lightwave fora while (which was completely different to Max, but not too bad once 6.5 came out) and then back to max combined with maya, and now Max again. Blender and the truespace UI's are amongst the worst I have tried, and simply can't get productive with them. Given a choice of cheapo tools, I'd probably use Wings3d for modeling and Unwrap3d for UV mapping. Not sure where to look for animation.
#68
Just a note to Jeff who keeps refering to the "B-Key" selection method in BLENDER. try hiting the b button twice. It will turn into a circle. Then every thing you go over with the circle will become selected as long as your holding the left mouse button. "It's @$#$% cool". Try not to do arbitrary blending, very pointless. try to make something you need. I love Blender and would be very willing to discuss my headaches in learning it.
EDIT
and another note. you should "never" haVE TO use the interface in blender. Learn the key commands and always use them.
05/26/2005 (4:58 pm)
Hi everybody,Just a note to Jeff who keeps refering to the "B-Key" selection method in BLENDER. try hiting the b button twice. It will turn into a circle. Then every thing you go over with the circle will become selected as long as your holding the left mouse button. "It's @$#$% cool". Try not to do arbitrary blending, very pointless. try to make something you need. I love Blender and would be very willing to discuss my headaches in learning it.
EDIT
and another note. you should "never" haVE TO use the interface in blender. Learn the key commands and always use them.
#69
To me, the keys are part of the interface. I am interfacing with my computer through the keys and mouse. Is this not the standard definition? Some of the above comments would take on different meanings if you don't agree with me there...
05/26/2005 (6:06 pm)
Quote:and another note. you should "never" haVE TO use the interface in blender. Learn the key commands and always use them.
To me, the keys are part of the interface. I am interfacing with my computer through the keys and mouse. Is this not the standard definition? Some of the above comments would take on different meanings if you don't agree with me there...
#70
Hey, look to Jeffs skeleton creation scripts as proof of that. (Again, nice work on that one, Jeff :)
05/26/2005 (9:26 pm)
Man, what a long thread. Some good points made here. Im in the same boat as Jeff... I tried blender and after an hour my brain was melting. Like Matt Langley, I really appreciate that blender is open source, but to be fair, most high end 3d packages have at very least some semblence of scripting language for you to make changes, additions, whathaveyou. Maya and Max are my primary tools and I can say their scripting languages are wildly extensive to say the least. Hey, look to Jeffs skeleton creation scripts as proof of that. (Again, nice work on that one, Jeff :)
#73
You don't have to remove doubles every time, finish your merging and editing and then run remove doubles. You shouldn't be getting doubles from that operation anyway, I don't.
Like I said before once the selection has initially been made, you can just hit enter and once you know the defaults and what you last used it just becomes W, 4, enter or W, enter, enter the second time( thats 3 not 5). The OK window does not need to be clicked on. If you just ignore menus and move your mouse they dissapear naturally.
I think the point your missing is that this becomes fast and natural. Mostly when your using enter or the viewport keys you don't need your hand on the mouse. Thats why enter is used to end processes. You just press enter and put hand back to mouse.
At the end of the day Blender is not a Max, Maya beater. It never will be. Its a damn good modelling package but it is what it is. It hasn't had 6 seperate products rolled into it like Max or had $4000 per copy sold to continue development. I have a choice, use Max illegally or use Blender legally. I choose the blender option and find the workflow natural (after the initial WTF!). I know everyone is always using max or maya but how many of the indies here can actually afford it! I'll bet 70% of GG users are using pirated Max and Photoshop. No-one can justify the $5000 to buy those packages and if they can they've got too much money.
Just to finish this post I'd like to say thanks to Benoit Touchette for the exporter script, without which this conversation would never have arisen.
05/27/2005 (12:44 am)
Quote:B:(1)select the vertices, (2)enter weld mode with the wkey, (3)choose "merge" from the popup menu, (4) choose "center" from the popup menu (5) click OK on the popup menu that tells you how many verts were removed
You don't have to remove doubles every time, finish your merging and editing and then run remove doubles. You shouldn't be getting doubles from that operation anyway, I don't.
Like I said before once the selection has initially been made, you can just hit enter and once you know the defaults and what you last used it just becomes W, 4, enter or W, enter, enter the second time( thats 3 not 5). The OK window does not need to be clicked on. If you just ignore menus and move your mouse they dissapear naturally.
Quote:You can only select vertices. There is an option to select faces or edges, but only in rings, and once you do, the result is that you have selected the vertices that belong to those faces or edges, not the faces or edges themselves.See above about Ctrl-Tab to switch modes.
Quote:To make a cut, you have to (1) select every vertex which is part of a face that you want to cut. You can select all vertices with the akey (2)activate knive tool with the kkey, and (2a) click to choose whether to lock your cuts to midpoints or to make it exactly where you draw your cut, (3)Draw the Cut, and (4) end the cut with enter.Selection is an issue in any package, but as I've explained you can select more than just vertices depending which mode your in. And again when you know the defaults or menu numbers its becomes easier K,4 draw , enter. How do you do different types of cut in your app? I'm sure it isn't psychic and knows which type so you must need to set that at some point or does it only support 1 type of cut?
I think the point your missing is that this becomes fast and natural. Mostly when your using enter or the viewport keys you don't need your hand on the mouse. Thats why enter is used to end processes. You just press enter and put hand back to mouse.
Quote:Anything else Ive ever used: While in move mode, (1) click and drag on the desired axis or planeG,X to move on X. This is actually quicker than using the gizmos. Most gizmos are not that easy to target, they often perform multiple ops like yaw, rotation etc. and sometimes are just hard to get at because you can end up selecting a face on the model. (plus the gizmos are in the next release as an option)
Quote:My (less and less so) malleable conclusion: Blender slows me down more than it speeds me up (modeling-wise).It will slow you down initially, plus if you are comfortable with other packages there is no need to switch. I think we got carried away with the physical interface whereas the issue is the workflow in blender. That is different from many apps and really does take some education to get used too. You see A,B as two keystrokes, I see it as 1 like Alt and B. Once you get away from the idea Alt and B key is one keystroke, blender scores much higher in your strange rating system.
At the end of the day Blender is not a Max, Maya beater. It never will be. Its a damn good modelling package but it is what it is. It hasn't had 6 seperate products rolled into it like Max or had $4000 per copy sold to continue development. I have a choice, use Max illegally or use Blender legally. I choose the blender option and find the workflow natural (after the initial WTF!). I know everyone is always using max or maya but how many of the indies here can actually afford it! I'll bet 70% of GG users are using pirated Max and Photoshop. No-one can justify the $5000 to buy those packages and if they can they've got too much money.
Just to finish this post I'd like to say thanks to Benoit Touchette for the exporter script, without which this conversation would never have arisen.
#74
Pfff... :(
Jeff, I think, you're not really objective. Generally, before give a bad or a good critic to something, i read a lot about it. Why? to avoid announcing false things (I really don't like this).
I think you must read more tutorials. Train a little with it!
Or open as dreamer suggested a topic on blender (like realm wars) where peoples like you could ask help (and in which I would give you responses as quickly as I can).
Finally 3DS is a good modeling suite... I don't use it, because it's too expansive (my wife prefer robes against 3DS :), curious isn't it?).
If I had enough money, I probably does not use Torque, perhaps eXodus, or any other expansive engine.
I Think as associate of GarageGame, You must keep in mind that if people comes to Torque, it's of course, for its features, but also for price !
For my personnal case, The most important thing that let me choose torque is the compatibility with Blender ! So Yes! I think Blender RULES !
Sorry For my poor english, I am a frenchy guy !
05/27/2005 (1:11 am)
@Jeff :Pfff... :(
Jeff, I think, you're not really objective. Generally, before give a bad or a good critic to something, i read a lot about it. Why? to avoid announcing false things (I really don't like this).
I think you must read more tutorials. Train a little with it!
Quote::o :(( Find it ! (it's done in One click, Ooops sorry :) 1click for dropping down the menu, and one click to select the save point)
I want to be able to switch between multiple saved viewpoints with a click or hotkey.
Or open as dreamer suggested a topic on blender (like realm wars) where peoples like you could ask help (and in which I would give you responses as quickly as I can).
Finally 3DS is a good modeling suite... I don't use it, because it's too expansive (my wife prefer robes against 3DS :), curious isn't it?).
If I had enough money, I probably does not use Torque, perhaps eXodus, or any other expansive engine.
I Think as associate of GarageGame, You must keep in mind that if people comes to Torque, it's of course, for its features, but also for price !
For my personnal case, The most important thing that let me choose torque is the compatibility with Blender ! So Yes! I think Blender RULES !
Sorry For my poor english, I am a frenchy guy !
#77
Anyways I think TheGuy was reading your post as saying that your wife preffers a 3D tool called robes, when in fact you were saying that she preffers to have nice clothes, over you having a pricey 3D app :)
05/27/2005 (4:18 pm)
@ Vincent, in USA a Robe is something you wear while waiting for the laundry to finish :)Anyways I think TheGuy was reading your post as saying that your wife preffers a 3D tool called robes, when in fact you were saying that she preffers to have nice clothes, over you having a pricey 3D app :)
#79
btw I think people aren't being far too harsh on Blender, but maybe just a little to harsh. Especially considering Torque (even at its very refined point right now) doesn't come with a bunch of tutorials that teach you the shortest way to do everything. I guess I'd expect Torque users to be a little less quick to complain about features not being apparent.
05/27/2005 (4:25 pm)
I always knew wizard's were crossdressers *sighs*btw I think people aren't being far too harsh on Blender, but maybe just a little to harsh. Especially considering Torque (even at its very refined point right now) doesn't come with a bunch of tutorials that teach you the shortest way to do everything. I guess I'd expect Torque users to be a little less quick to complain about features not being apparent.
#80
I think there was a bit of miscommunication about the remove doubles thing, but whatever. Thanks, you're right about that being shorter, and I didn't realize you don't have to click the OK popup. I will work with this.
Yes, this is VERY helpful. I really was under the mistaken impression that blender didn't even recognize anything besides vertices. I was wrong and I'm glad about it. Ctrl-Tab wouldn't be my first choice for such a common action, but I it works. (In Maya, right click brings up the face/edge/vert popup menu, in Max there isn't one (unless you make it, which is very possible), but the default is to use 1 (vert), 2 (edge), 3 (face), 4 (polygon), and 5 (element (group of polys within the same object)).
Good points.
The cuts in the other programs I've used work in a more mechanical way, rather than the free-form drawing method that blender uses. Instead of drawing a line and asking you whether to do an exact middle cut or where you drew it, you draw your new edge by clicking once for each vertex you will create. The "cursor" during this operation snaps to edges and verts, so to connect two verts, you just (1) enable the cut tool, (2) click vert A, (3), click vert B, etc. In Maya you can click and drag on an edge and it will move your vert up and down along the edge until you decide when to let go, and that's where it creates the vert. In MAX, if you need to, you can mimic this behavoir by cutting wherever, and then enabling "move along edge" mode (with a hotkey, of course), and slide the vert to where you want.
It does occur to me that blender's one click-drag for a cut across multiple faces can be faster than clicking on each one individually.
Still, the ABSOLUTE fastest way to accomplish the same thing (for me anyway), is with a connect tool. Just select whatever edges or verts you want to be connected by new edges, hit the "connect" hotkey, and BAM, you're done. Does this exist in Blender?
05/27/2005 (10:14 pm)
Quote:You don't have to remove doubles every time, finish your merging and editing and then run remove doubles. You shouldn't be getting doubles from that operation anyway, I don't.
Like I said before once the selection has initially been made, you can just hit enter and once you know the defaults and what you last used it just becomes W, 4, enter or W, enter, enter the second time( thats 3 not 5). The OK window does not need to be clicked on. If you just ignore menus and move your mouse they dissapear naturally.
I think there was a bit of miscommunication about the remove doubles thing, but whatever. Thanks, you're right about that being shorter, and I didn't realize you don't have to click the OK popup. I will work with this.
Quote:See above about Ctrl-Tab to switch modes.
Yes, this is VERY helpful. I really was under the mistaken impression that blender didn't even recognize anything besides vertices. I was wrong and I'm glad about it. Ctrl-Tab wouldn't be my first choice for such a common action, but I it works. (In Maya, right click brings up the face/edge/vert popup menu, in Max there isn't one (unless you make it, which is very possible), but the default is to use 1 (vert), 2 (edge), 3 (face), 4 (polygon), and 5 (element (group of polys within the same object)).
Quote:Selection is an issue in any package, but as I've explained you can select more than just vertices depending which mode your in. And again when you know the defaults or menu numbers its becomes easier K,4 draw , enter. How do you do different types of cut in your app? I'm sure it isn't psychic and knows which type so you must need to set that at some point or does it only support 1 type of cut?
Good points.
The cuts in the other programs I've used work in a more mechanical way, rather than the free-form drawing method that blender uses. Instead of drawing a line and asking you whether to do an exact middle cut or where you drew it, you draw your new edge by clicking once for each vertex you will create. The "cursor" during this operation snaps to edges and verts, so to connect two verts, you just (1) enable the cut tool, (2) click vert A, (3), click vert B, etc. In Maya you can click and drag on an edge and it will move your vert up and down along the edge until you decide when to let go, and that's where it creates the vert. In MAX, if you need to, you can mimic this behavoir by cutting wherever, and then enabling "move along edge" mode (with a hotkey, of course), and slide the vert to where you want.
It does occur to me that blender's one click-drag for a cut across multiple faces can be faster than clicking on each one individually.
Still, the ABSOLUTE fastest way to accomplish the same thing (for me anyway), is with a connect tool. Just select whatever edges or verts you want to be connected by new edges, hit the "connect" hotkey, and BAM, you're done. Does this exist in Blender?
Torque Owner Owen Ortmayer
I dont disagree with anything that you've stated. My statement comes from my minimal knowledge of psychology and the fact that once you've developed a mental model about something, it skews your view.
Which is why I said it would be interesting to see a study where groups of newbie people were given a chance to learn one of the apps. The groups would serve to try and eliminate things like individual preferences, etc. And see if one of the apps is in fact more intuitive in general. Of course there many other factors that come into play, and you'd need to conduct mutiple studies with lots of participants, et cetera, et cetera.
As far as myself, I've dabbled in Max, Cinema4D, Blender, and Milkshape and none of them make any sense to me :).