Does Blender suck or rule?
by Jeff Gran · in Artist Corner · 05/25/2005 (1:08 pm) · 116 replies
I am experienced with the modeling and animating tools in both MAX and Maya, and I've recently downloaded Blender to try it out.
I have read many testimonials about how Blender is actually a very easy to use, fast, efficient tool. After an admittedly limited test run with it, I have to disagree. And not just because it's different than what I'm used to. It seems like a not-quite-there-yet version of a professional tool.
Some examples of things I have a problem with initially:
You can't customise your hotkeys, from what I can find. To me this is one of the most powerful features of the professional tools, that you can customize your interface to be what works for YOU, not what some guy or guys (or gals) deemed was the best interface.
Right-click to select, left click for "blender gesture system" to jump into transform mode... WHY? left click to select in any other application I can think of. This is not faster than the other way around, and is just annoying.
Alt-B to draw a selection-box (which uses the left mouse button, which is not consistent with non-box selection) This is not faster than not having to press two buttons before dragging a selection box.
You can only select vertices. There is an option to select faces or edges, but only in rings, and once you do, the result is that you have selected the vertices that belong to those faces or edges, not the faces or edges themselves. While it is true that it is not necessary to select the higher level sub-object elements, it is very helpful, especially when visualizing the actions you are about to take on the model. It's also faster to select a single face than to individually select the 3 or 4 verts that make it up. And the hotkeys for edge and face selecting are wacky... they don't even use the same modifier (one uses ALT and the other CTRL, if I remember correctly).
I actually do like Blender's customizeable windows system, cause you can make the window in whatever configuration you want, and zoom out and move around (like Maya's hypergraph, which rocks, and which is how I want my OS to work).
Also, I did some searching for professional-quality models made with Blender, and couldn't find any. Looking through the elysiun forums (semi-official blender repository), even the people who were trying to educate the noobs were showing poor modeling skills, and I only found one organic model (an orc head) which was mediocre in quality. Can anyone give me a link to something that would prove that Blender can be used to good effect?
I want to make it clear that I have an open mind about this, and most of the reason I'm starting this thread is in hopes that someone can convince me that I am wrong. Obviously I also would need to USE the tool more and see if I can get used to it and adjust my modeling style accordingly, but I'm interested to hear others' opinions and experiences. When I first opened Blender and started going through the tutorials, I was thinking it would be awesome... the world needs a good free 3D editor... but now I'm thinking that without heavy modifications this is not it.
Discussion! Prove me wrong!
I have read many testimonials about how Blender is actually a very easy to use, fast, efficient tool. After an admittedly limited test run with it, I have to disagree. And not just because it's different than what I'm used to. It seems like a not-quite-there-yet version of a professional tool.
Some examples of things I have a problem with initially:
You can't customise your hotkeys, from what I can find. To me this is one of the most powerful features of the professional tools, that you can customize your interface to be what works for YOU, not what some guy or guys (or gals) deemed was the best interface.
Right-click to select, left click for "blender gesture system" to jump into transform mode... WHY? left click to select in any other application I can think of. This is not faster than the other way around, and is just annoying.
Alt-B to draw a selection-box (which uses the left mouse button, which is not consistent with non-box selection) This is not faster than not having to press two buttons before dragging a selection box.
You can only select vertices. There is an option to select faces or edges, but only in rings, and once you do, the result is that you have selected the vertices that belong to those faces or edges, not the faces or edges themselves. While it is true that it is not necessary to select the higher level sub-object elements, it is very helpful, especially when visualizing the actions you are about to take on the model. It's also faster to select a single face than to individually select the 3 or 4 verts that make it up. And the hotkeys for edge and face selecting are wacky... they don't even use the same modifier (one uses ALT and the other CTRL, if I remember correctly).
I actually do like Blender's customizeable windows system, cause you can make the window in whatever configuration you want, and zoom out and move around (like Maya's hypergraph, which rocks, and which is how I want my OS to work).
Also, I did some searching for professional-quality models made with Blender, and couldn't find any. Looking through the elysiun forums (semi-official blender repository), even the people who were trying to educate the noobs were showing poor modeling skills, and I only found one organic model (an orc head) which was mediocre in quality. Can anyone give me a link to something that would prove that Blender can be used to good effect?
I want to make it clear that I have an open mind about this, and most of the reason I'm starting this thread is in hopes that someone can convince me that I am wrong. Obviously I also would need to USE the tool more and see if I can get used to it and adjust my modeling style accordingly, but I'm interested to hear others' opinions and experiences. When I first opened Blender and started going through the tutorials, I was thinking it would be awesome... the world needs a good free 3D editor... but now I'm thinking that without heavy modifications this is not it.
Discussion! Prove me wrong!
#42
I find it very interesting that the vast majority of Blender's supporters -- in this community, at least -- are programmers or come from a programming background. The few exceptions have made themselves known in this thread. I wonder if there are any professional artists who work at or have worked for larger production studios who prefer Blender over some of the other applications and how they feel Blender compares to them. My primary background is with larger studios, so this is a point of interest for me.
05/26/2005 (9:55 am)
So far, I think this is a good thread for those of who do not use Blender. It's gives me some insight into how some of the tools and processes within Blender work. I'm really enjoying Jeff's head-to-head comparison of features that he would use on a regular basis. Looking forward to the your views on the animation system.I find it very interesting that the vast majority of Blender's supporters -- in this community, at least -- are programmers or come from a programming background. The few exceptions have made themselves known in this thread. I wonder if there are any professional artists who work at or have worked for larger production studios who prefer Blender over some of the other applications and how they feel Blender compares to them. My primary background is with larger studios, so this is a point of interest for me.
#43
You can Now export .map files !
Thank you to Benoit Touchette !
05/26/2005 (10:01 am)
Another point for blender : You can Now export .map files !
Thank you to Benoit Touchette !
#44
great observation... Personally being a programmer, Blender's integration with Python and the fact that its open source really gives me a lot of options some other programs don't. Max and Maya have a great scripting language and that will work with a good 90% of what most would want to acheive (if not more even), but the fact that its open source means I can go in there and modify the app itself, which is pretty "nifty." Also the python usage is great as well, just look at what Josh Ritter has done with python!
From a programmers perspective this really gives me some options... on the other hand I do like the workflow of Max better, but before Max I used blender for a good couple-few months, it slowly grew on me.
btw I agree that some Blender actions take more steps then Max. Though I think the way the blender menus are set up they are easier to access than Max's (at least the ones that pop up). I also think the move comparisson is different in action than evaluation of it by steps. Using "G" to grab the object then x, y, or z to constrain its movement to an axis actually gets pretty intuitive after a while, in fact some times in Max, especially when working in full screen perspective, that the axis setup isn't always the easiest way.
EDIT: btw hopefully this doesn't come accross wrong lol... I love the step by step comparisson (look forward to more), just giving perspective of someone whose worked with blender for a few months (though It has been a couple weeks since I've touched it now). I created a couple weapons in it, some very (very) simple test character, exported animations, swapped it out with the player character, etc. Again also keep in mind the way that you do things might not be the shortest path, hopefully those that have will continue to give alternative methods to perform one thing.
I think of Blender a lot like Linux, a steep learning curve, but its open source nature gives it a lot of variety and power even if not a pretty and shiny exterior :)
05/26/2005 (10:06 am)
Quote:programmers or come from a programming background
great observation... Personally being a programmer, Blender's integration with Python and the fact that its open source really gives me a lot of options some other programs don't. Max and Maya have a great scripting language and that will work with a good 90% of what most would want to acheive (if not more even), but the fact that its open source means I can go in there and modify the app itself, which is pretty "nifty." Also the python usage is great as well, just look at what Josh Ritter has done with python!
From a programmers perspective this really gives me some options... on the other hand I do like the workflow of Max better, but before Max I used blender for a good couple-few months, it slowly grew on me.
btw I agree that some Blender actions take more steps then Max. Though I think the way the blender menus are set up they are easier to access than Max's (at least the ones that pop up). I also think the move comparisson is different in action than evaluation of it by steps. Using "G" to grab the object then x, y, or z to constrain its movement to an axis actually gets pretty intuitive after a while, in fact some times in Max, especially when working in full screen perspective, that the axis setup isn't always the easiest way.
EDIT: btw hopefully this doesn't come accross wrong lol... I love the step by step comparisson (look forward to more), just giving perspective of someone whose worked with blender for a few months (though It has been a couple weeks since I've touched it now). I created a couple weapons in it, some very (very) simple test character, exported animations, swapped it out with the player character, etc. Again also keep in mind the way that you do things might not be the shortest path, hopefully those that have will continue to give alternative methods to perform one thing.
I think of Blender a lot like Linux, a steep learning curve, but its open source nature gives it a lot of variety and power even if not a pretty and shiny exterior :)
#45
05/26/2005 (10:10 am)
@Vincent, Hey a link to that .map exporter would be SO great!
#46
Though in defense, Max has Game Level Builder (which is quite nifty by itself) which I've tested multiple .map exports that work well :)
05/26/2005 (10:12 am)
@Vincent: great point! gotta love his plans when he mentions it (like his most recent one today) :)Though in defense, Max has Game Level Builder (which is quite nifty by itself) which I've tested multiple .map exports that work well :)
#48
Anways, found my first hardcoded keybind in there, so this may actually take alot more work than initially thought, especially if this is as omnipresent as I fear it is...
The simplest solution would be to figure out where ESCKEY and it's cohorts are defined (I'm looking, I'm looking), and remap those to some kind of config file.
Thoughts?
*Update*
Woohoo! I found it, all the keybinds are defined in blender/source/blender/include/mydevice.h
So if you quickly want to change a keybind, just edit it in there, want the ESCKEY to function as the SPACEKEY and vise/versa, just change the defines.
Now to figure out how to get these out of the header, and into a config file of somekind. Wish I was better versed on how TGE does this.
05/26/2005 (10:15 am)
Ok folks fixing KeyMaps may be more difficult than I originally thought, I found a file called editKeys.h that looked right, but when I dove into it, it actually is the code for editing IPO keys (whoops)Anways, found my first hardcoded keybind in there, so this may actually take alot more work than initially thought, especially if this is as omnipresent as I fear it is...
if(event==ESCKEY)
The simplest solution would be to figure out where ESCKEY and it's cohorts are defined (I'm looking, I'm looking), and remap those to some kind of config file.
Thoughts?
*Update*
Woohoo! I found it, all the keybinds are defined in blender/source/blender/include/mydevice.h
So if you quickly want to change a keybind, just edit it in there, want the ESCKEY to function as the SPACEKEY and vise/versa, just change the defines.
Now to figure out how to get these out of the header, and into a config file of somekind. Wish I was better versed on how TGE does this.
#49
05/26/2005 (10:19 am)
Quote:This would be greatly appreciated by Blender community!
remap those to some kind of config file
#50
05/26/2005 (10:20 am)
Danny try this link www.blender.org/modules.php?op=modload&name=News&file=article&sid=151&mode=threa....
#51
05/26/2005 (10:23 am)
Alright, it is my humble opinion that blender *%#&^@& sucks. We have one linux user on our team, who insists on using it to do 3d modelling, and as such he's become dead weight -- we've been trying for 9 months to get the *%$@&&# exporter working, and it still won't. Well, we got it to export one model, but when we try any others, even if they're identical to the first one -- even if they're modified duplicates of the first one, they won't export.
#52
05/26/2005 (10:25 am)
@Leo, have you tried posting to the blender exporter forums with your issues and what steps you have taken to resolve them? I had one hell of time getting it to work too... Until I told blender where to find python.
#53
Could be because these persons have a more objective point of view. Experienced modelers have spent many, many hours using another modeling package and no matter how hard they try to remain objective, they still arent.
Case and point for argument. QWERTY keyboards are the standard keyboard layout (for english language at least). HCI research has produced layouts that are MUCH more efficient, yet qwerty remains the standard because this is what people are used to. I have had the chance to try one of these designs and it seemed stupid and impossible to use for me, even though I knew it was superior to the qwerty design, because of the years of using a qwerty layout.
What would be interesting would to see a study involving several groups of users with no modelling experience at all. Where each person in a particular group was assigned the same app and eveyone given the same amount of time to learn their assigned app. Then everyone was given the same set of tasks and the times to complete these tasks were averaged for each group.
05/26/2005 (10:27 am)
Quote:
programmers or come from a programming background
Could be because these persons have a more objective point of view. Experienced modelers have spent many, many hours using another modeling package and no matter how hard they try to remain objective, they still arent.
Case and point for argument. QWERTY keyboards are the standard keyboard layout (for english language at least). HCI research has produced layouts that are MUCH more efficient, yet qwerty remains the standard because this is what people are used to. I have had the chance to try one of these designs and it seemed stupid and impossible to use for me, even though I knew it was superior to the qwerty design, because of the years of using a qwerty layout.
What would be interesting would to see a study involving several groups of users with no modelling experience at all. Where each person in a particular group was assigned the same app and eveyone given the same amount of time to learn their assigned app. Then everyone was given the same set of tasks and the times to complete these tasks were averaged for each group.
#54
Been trying to get my modeller to join these forums for months...
05/26/2005 (10:37 am)
@Dreamer: Been trying to get my modeller to join these forums for months...
#55
Of course not, and even without previous experience an up and coming modeler isn't likely to be.
Let me ask you a question...
Do you open your functions with the brace at the end of the line like so:
if (condition) {
}//endIf
Or drop it a line, like so:
if (condition)
{
}//endIf
One programmer will prefer one style while another will prefer the other - it's just personal preference. I'd also wager that you developed your particular preference within minutes of writing your first lines of code.
Hand an accomplished painter a lump of clay to sculpt and see if he asks for a paint brush instead... or visa versa.
What is intuitive differs with the individual - as illustrated throughout this thread.
What comes "natural" to me, may not to you - ergo, what I deem "intuitive" in nature may be, in fact, diametrically opposed to what you deem intuitive.
In the end, each artist simply needs to acquire the tools that best suit there work habits.
You may be able to quantify "efficiency" and say that method "x" is faster than method "y", but so what - there's something to be said for using the tools you're comfortable with as an artist.
I'm pretty sure noone ever walked into the Sistine Chapel and said, "Hey Mike - you could do that a lot faster with a Wagner!"
I better stop before I get on my Quality > Quantity soapbox. (C;
05/26/2005 (10:49 am)
Quote:Could be because these persons have a more objective point of view. Experienced modelers have spent many, many hours using another modeling package and no matter how hard they try to remain objective, they still arent.
Of course not, and even without previous experience an up and coming modeler isn't likely to be.
Let me ask you a question...
Do you open your functions with the brace at the end of the line like so:
if (condition) {
}//endIf
Or drop it a line, like so:
if (condition)
{
}//endIf
One programmer will prefer one style while another will prefer the other - it's just personal preference. I'd also wager that you developed your particular preference within minutes of writing your first lines of code.
Hand an accomplished painter a lump of clay to sculpt and see if he asks for a paint brush instead... or visa versa.
What is intuitive differs with the individual - as illustrated throughout this thread.
What comes "natural" to me, may not to you - ergo, what I deem "intuitive" in nature may be, in fact, diametrically opposed to what you deem intuitive.
In the end, each artist simply needs to acquire the tools that best suit there work habits.
You may be able to quantify "efficiency" and say that method "x" is faster than method "y", but so what - there's something to be said for using the tools you're comfortable with as an artist.
I'm pretty sure noone ever walked into the Sistine Chapel and said, "Hey Mike - you could do that a lot faster with a Wagner!"
I better stop before I get on my Quality > Quantity soapbox. (C;
#56
personally I think thats more like comparing how one person uses Max vs another person, or how one person uses Blender vs another person, since the syntax is the same, just using different ways to accomplish the same result...
more comparable (in my opinion) would be C like syntax
vs BASIC like syntax
or pythons syntax would be another valid comparisson in my opinion.
these languages have different limitations and uses, arguements to support either is very valid, though sometimes there are very distinct "limitations" by one vs the other. Like some max processes have less steps. On the other hand Blender is open source so you can modify and change those steps *shrug*.
05/26/2005 (11:02 am)
@Kirby: I think you have a point though I think your coding comparission is not completely valid... that would be using the same syntax in different ways... personally I think thats more like comparing how one person uses Max vs another person, or how one person uses Blender vs another person, since the syntax is the same, just using different ways to accomplish the same result...
more comparable (in my opinion) would be C like syntax
if(condition)
{
line;
} else
{
line;
} //end ifvs BASIC like syntax
if condition then line else line end if
or pythons syntax would be another valid comparisson in my opinion.
these languages have different limitations and uses, arguements to support either is very valid, though sometimes there are very distinct "limitations" by one vs the other. Like some max processes have less steps. On the other hand Blender is open source so you can modify and change those steps *shrug*.
#57
Hope that helps!
05/26/2005 (11:22 am)
@Jeff, Ok I have looked pretty deeply into the code, and while I could probably make an abstraction of some sort to remap all the keys, it's alot more than I have time for at present (as you know I'm more than a little busy for the next few weeks). However and yes this is a baind-aid solution, if you will create a list of what you are expecting as far as key combinations and expected behaviors (including current behaviors if known would help me fix this faster), I will go through the code and remap these key combinations manually, then send you a blender, with a more max like workflow.Hope that helps!
#58
I understand what you're saying, and yes... you're right in that regard.
My point is that artists using Blender are of course not objective in their appraisals of modeling software - of any type.
We all tend to develop workhabits that suit our styles and are comfortable. When you are faced with something that does not suit that style or those habits, you wind up asking yourself "Why Bother? I can accomplish this same task in another tool without having to spend the next two months learning to do it the [insert product name here] way."
As a case in point, I started learning to model with Truespace 1.04. Talk about a learning curve.
Eventually, I picked up Milkshape to import and export Quake2 models for some modding I was dabbling with.
To put it mildly, I was blown away with how much more "intuitive" Milkshape was for me than TS ever hoped to be... go figure.
The reason I developed such a dramatic and immediate preference for what many would consider "lesser" software was because MS3D was constructed in a way that most closeley resembled my modeling approach intellectually.
Was it "faster" than using TS? Probably not for those more well versed in the program, but it certainly was for me - primarily because I understood it on a fundamental level - I just don't get that with Blender.
05/26/2005 (11:32 am)
@ MattI understand what you're saying, and yes... you're right in that regard.
My point is that artists using Blender are of course not objective in their appraisals of modeling software - of any type.
We all tend to develop workhabits that suit our styles and are comfortable. When you are faced with something that does not suit that style or those habits, you wind up asking yourself "Why Bother? I can accomplish this same task in another tool without having to spend the next two months learning to do it the [insert product name here] way."
As a case in point, I started learning to model with Truespace 1.04. Talk about a learning curve.
Eventually, I picked up Milkshape to import and export Quake2 models for some modding I was dabbling with.
To put it mildly, I was blown away with how much more "intuitive" Milkshape was for me than TS ever hoped to be... go figure.
The reason I developed such a dramatic and immediate preference for what many would consider "lesser" software was because MS3D was constructed in a way that most closeley resembled my modeling approach intellectually.
Was it "faster" than using TS? Probably not for those more well versed in the program, but it certainly was for me - primarily because I understood it on a fundamental level - I just don't get that with Blender.
#59
Sure we are all probalby biased, though theres nothing wrong with that in this case (at least in my opinion) :) If you've spent years working with one program why should you have to adapt to a new one ? That is unless the situation calls for it then you are just being hard headed.
I think comparing workflows is good, thats the only way one can find a couple things
1) whether or not the way they think is the quickest/shortest route is truly the quickest/shortest
2) find room for improvement in speed as well as efficiency
for a lot of the same rasons why Torque shouldn't be compared to Unreal, Blender shouldn't be compared to Max/Maya. Your looking at a $0 program vs thousands+. Then again I fully support challenging a program/workflow/whatever every once in a while to find ways to improve it *shrug*.
I'm weird though lol, I also think that we choose our preferences. I don't completely buy that some people are just artistic, in most cases they did art since childhood, they are just more experienced. In my case I started as a programmer, so I got skilled with that, since I've been working on design, 2D and 3D art and I'm finding that if you spend enough time on something you get good at it, whether your a "programmer" or an "artist". I just think it comes down to no one having enough time to split between every effort to get that skilled.
The only thing holding people back are themselves. From learning Max, Maya, Milkshape, blender, C++, BASIC (languages), python, etc.
then again I'm weird and this is just rambling lol. Definately interested in more evaluation of this.
05/26/2005 (11:44 am)
I know what you mean and agree with the majority of it, we all develop our own way of thinking of things and working with things and one program that may seem intuitive to one may be the bane of another's existence lol. Thats why there are options :) Thats why we have Max, maya, blender, truespace, Milkshape, etc ... The same reason GG supports Tom Spillman's great Torque Pipeline for CShop even though GG is working on Constructor. The more options the better because people have different tastes and experiences.Sure we are all probalby biased, though theres nothing wrong with that in this case (at least in my opinion) :) If you've spent years working with one program why should you have to adapt to a new one ? That is unless the situation calls for it then you are just being hard headed.
I think comparing workflows is good, thats the only way one can find a couple things
1) whether or not the way they think is the quickest/shortest route is truly the quickest/shortest
2) find room for improvement in speed as well as efficiency
for a lot of the same rasons why Torque shouldn't be compared to Unreal, Blender shouldn't be compared to Max/Maya. Your looking at a $0 program vs thousands+. Then again I fully support challenging a program/workflow/whatever every once in a while to find ways to improve it *shrug*.
I'm weird though lol, I also think that we choose our preferences. I don't completely buy that some people are just artistic, in most cases they did art since childhood, they are just more experienced. In my case I started as a programmer, so I got skilled with that, since I've been working on design, 2D and 3D art and I'm finding that if you spend enough time on something you get good at it, whether your a "programmer" or an "artist". I just think it comes down to no one having enough time to split between every effort to get that skilled.
The only thing holding people back are themselves. From learning Max, Maya, Milkshape, blender, C++, BASIC (languages), python, etc.
then again I'm weird and this is just rambling lol. Definately interested in more evaluation of this.
#60
05/26/2005 (11:58 am)
Hey all, this thread has given me a great idea for a project which I have posted to my .plan, check it out! 
Torque 3D Owner Matthew Langley
Torque
If I owned Max, would I use Blender?
I can fairly confidently say no, but then again it is open source so I can always add features to the app itself, which is a nice concept though I don't know if I'd ever need to.
But then again if you compare the price of Blender and Max... *shrug*.
Blender's interface seems cumbersome at first, but coming from someone who (unfortunately) has to switch between Max and Blender a lot, the blender interface uses "Space" and the pop up menus actually becomes fairly intuitive. I like some aspects of blender very much. Again you really have to spend some time in Blender to really get used to it...
also keep in mind
Just like any other program out there (Max and Maya included) there are longs ways and there are short ways. You often have to dig through multiple tutorials and references to find the shortest way to complete an action