Does Blender suck or rule?
by Jeff Gran · in Artist Corner · 05/25/2005 (1:08 pm) · 116 replies
I am experienced with the modeling and animating tools in both MAX and Maya, and I've recently downloaded Blender to try it out.
I have read many testimonials about how Blender is actually a very easy to use, fast, efficient tool. After an admittedly limited test run with it, I have to disagree. And not just because it's different than what I'm used to. It seems like a not-quite-there-yet version of a professional tool.
Some examples of things I have a problem with initially:
You can't customise your hotkeys, from what I can find. To me this is one of the most powerful features of the professional tools, that you can customize your interface to be what works for YOU, not what some guy or guys (or gals) deemed was the best interface.
Right-click to select, left click for "blender gesture system" to jump into transform mode... WHY? left click to select in any other application I can think of. This is not faster than the other way around, and is just annoying.
Alt-B to draw a selection-box (which uses the left mouse button, which is not consistent with non-box selection) This is not faster than not having to press two buttons before dragging a selection box.
You can only select vertices. There is an option to select faces or edges, but only in rings, and once you do, the result is that you have selected the vertices that belong to those faces or edges, not the faces or edges themselves. While it is true that it is not necessary to select the higher level sub-object elements, it is very helpful, especially when visualizing the actions you are about to take on the model. It's also faster to select a single face than to individually select the 3 or 4 verts that make it up. And the hotkeys for edge and face selecting are wacky... they don't even use the same modifier (one uses ALT and the other CTRL, if I remember correctly).
I actually do like Blender's customizeable windows system, cause you can make the window in whatever configuration you want, and zoom out and move around (like Maya's hypergraph, which rocks, and which is how I want my OS to work).
Also, I did some searching for professional-quality models made with Blender, and couldn't find any. Looking through the elysiun forums (semi-official blender repository), even the people who were trying to educate the noobs were showing poor modeling skills, and I only found one organic model (an orc head) which was mediocre in quality. Can anyone give me a link to something that would prove that Blender can be used to good effect?
I want to make it clear that I have an open mind about this, and most of the reason I'm starting this thread is in hopes that someone can convince me that I am wrong. Obviously I also would need to USE the tool more and see if I can get used to it and adjust my modeling style accordingly, but I'm interested to hear others' opinions and experiences. When I first opened Blender and started going through the tutorials, I was thinking it would be awesome... the world needs a good free 3D editor... but now I'm thinking that without heavy modifications this is not it.
Discussion! Prove me wrong!
I have read many testimonials about how Blender is actually a very easy to use, fast, efficient tool. After an admittedly limited test run with it, I have to disagree. And not just because it's different than what I'm used to. It seems like a not-quite-there-yet version of a professional tool.
Some examples of things I have a problem with initially:
You can't customise your hotkeys, from what I can find. To me this is one of the most powerful features of the professional tools, that you can customize your interface to be what works for YOU, not what some guy or guys (or gals) deemed was the best interface.
Right-click to select, left click for "blender gesture system" to jump into transform mode... WHY? left click to select in any other application I can think of. This is not faster than the other way around, and is just annoying.
Alt-B to draw a selection-box (which uses the left mouse button, which is not consistent with non-box selection) This is not faster than not having to press two buttons before dragging a selection box.
You can only select vertices. There is an option to select faces or edges, but only in rings, and once you do, the result is that you have selected the vertices that belong to those faces or edges, not the faces or edges themselves. While it is true that it is not necessary to select the higher level sub-object elements, it is very helpful, especially when visualizing the actions you are about to take on the model. It's also faster to select a single face than to individually select the 3 or 4 verts that make it up. And the hotkeys for edge and face selecting are wacky... they don't even use the same modifier (one uses ALT and the other CTRL, if I remember correctly).
I actually do like Blender's customizeable windows system, cause you can make the window in whatever configuration you want, and zoom out and move around (like Maya's hypergraph, which rocks, and which is how I want my OS to work).
Also, I did some searching for professional-quality models made with Blender, and couldn't find any. Looking through the elysiun forums (semi-official blender repository), even the people who were trying to educate the noobs were showing poor modeling skills, and I only found one organic model (an orc head) which was mediocre in quality. Can anyone give me a link to something that would prove that Blender can be used to good effect?
I want to make it clear that I have an open mind about this, and most of the reason I'm starting this thread is in hopes that someone can convince me that I am wrong. Obviously I also would need to USE the tool more and see if I can get used to it and adjust my modeling style accordingly, but I'm interested to hear others' opinions and experiences. When I first opened Blender and started going through the tutorials, I was thinking it would be awesome... the world needs a good free 3D editor... but now I'm thinking that without heavy modifications this is not it.
Discussion! Prove me wrong!
#22
Walter: This is not your thread to say:
If you want to leave the discussion, then that's OK, you can leave. But I started this thread for exactly that reason: to discuss the finer points of "intuitive" (but really more like "fast") interfaces. I want to discuss this until the cows come home, because it is worth discussing. If blender does in fact rule, then I want to learn how to use it correctly and start ruling.
I keep seeing people saying that blender is faster or better than other tools available, and I want to either prove or disprove that theory. And if it does suck, maybe we can reconcile the situation for the common good.... as Dreamer says, It is open source and we are indie developers, after all.
Everyone:
I just modeled this in blender. (Like Joe the gingerbread man bored me, I needed to try something I might actually need to make) I have come again to my conclusion that blender sucks. Some of the reasons are outlined below.
**************************
While box-modeling, you have to (1) deselect with the akey, and (2) activate box with the bkey, in between every operation. I am doing this a LOT when I'm modeling, especially since the only way to select a face is to select all four verts, and the easiest way to do that is drag a box around them. It should be a click manouver. eg, click in blank space to deselect, selection box is automatic when you drag. (That would be the "conventional" way of doing it, and involves no (0) keypresses).
Edge: 0-2 Against Blender
*****************************
You can't "target weld" (MAX) or "snap to vertex" (hold "c" modifier for this in Maya) from what I can tell. The only way to merge verts is at the centroid of the verts in question.
In Blender There are two ways you can merge vertices-
A:(1)select the vertices, (2)enter scale mode with the skey (3)hold control to lock scaling to even increments, (4) click on the point where the two verts meet to scale to 0, (5)enter weld mode with the wkey, (6)click "remove doubles" from the popup menu, and (7) click OK on the popup that tells you how many verts were removed.
B:(1)select the vertices, (2)enter weld mode with the wkey, (3)choose "merge" from the popup menu, (4) choose "center" from the popup menu (5) click OK on the popup menu that tells you how many verts were removed.
B is better but still not as good as:
Maya:(1)select vertices, (2)button or hotkey (or other) assigned to "mergeVertices();" Also: You can and I do have separate hotkeys for (a)merge vertices which are on top of each other (same as "remove doubles" above), and (b) merge vertices that are far from each other.
or
MAX:(1)select vertices, (2)button or hotkey (or other) assigned to "weld selected vertices". (2b?)Have to type in a number if you want to change the distance tolerance
Edge:2(2 1/4) - 5(7) against Blender.
05/26/2005 (2:37 am)
Vincent: You're right, it's B not ALT-B. I stand corrected on that. But see below.Walter: This is not your thread to say:
Quote:Just leave it at that
If you want to leave the discussion, then that's OK, you can leave. But I started this thread for exactly that reason: to discuss the finer points of "intuitive" (but really more like "fast") interfaces. I want to discuss this until the cows come home, because it is worth discussing. If blender does in fact rule, then I want to learn how to use it correctly and start ruling.
I keep seeing people saying that blender is faster or better than other tools available, and I want to either prove or disprove that theory. And if it does suck, maybe we can reconcile the situation for the common good.... as Dreamer says, It is open source and we are indie developers, after all.
Everyone:
I just modeled this in blender. (Like Joe the gingerbread man bored me, I needed to try something I might actually need to make) I have come again to my conclusion that blender sucks. Some of the reasons are outlined below.
**************************
While box-modeling, you have to (1) deselect with the akey, and (2) activate box with the bkey, in between every operation. I am doing this a LOT when I'm modeling, especially since the only way to select a face is to select all four verts, and the easiest way to do that is drag a box around them. It should be a click manouver. eg, click in blank space to deselect, selection box is automatic when you drag. (That would be the "conventional" way of doing it, and involves no (0) keypresses).
Edge: 0-2 Against Blender
*****************************
You can't "target weld" (MAX) or "snap to vertex" (hold "c" modifier for this in Maya) from what I can tell. The only way to merge verts is at the centroid of the verts in question.
In Blender There are two ways you can merge vertices-
A:(1)select the vertices, (2)enter scale mode with the skey (3)hold control to lock scaling to even increments, (4) click on the point where the two verts meet to scale to 0, (5)enter weld mode with the wkey, (6)click "remove doubles" from the popup menu, and (7) click OK on the popup that tells you how many verts were removed.
B:(1)select the vertices, (2)enter weld mode with the wkey, (3)choose "merge" from the popup menu, (4) choose "center" from the popup menu (5) click OK on the popup menu that tells you how many verts were removed.
B is better but still not as good as:
Maya:(1)select vertices, (2)button or hotkey (or other) assigned to "mergeVertices();" Also: You can and I do have separate hotkeys for (a)merge vertices which are on top of each other (same as "remove doubles" above), and (b) merge vertices that are far from each other.
or
MAX:(1)select vertices, (2)button or hotkey (or other) assigned to "weld selected vertices". (2b?)Have to type in a number if you want to change the distance tolerance
Edge:2(2 1/4) - 5(7) against Blender.
#23
*****************************
Blender: To make a cut, you have to (1) select every vertex which is part of a face that you want to cut. You can select all vertices with the akey (2)activate knive tool with the kkey, and (2a) click to choose whether to lock your cuts to midpoints or to make it exactly where you draw your cut, (3)Draw the Cut, and (4) end the cut with enter.
Maya: (1)button or hotkey for cut tool (2) draw your line (holding modifiers for options), (3) enter to complete the tool.
MAX: (1)button or hotkey for cut tool (2) draw your line (holding modifiers for options), (3) enter to complete the tool.
Edge:4-3 against Blender
*******************************************
Blender:To move along an axis, (1) use the gkey to enter move mode, and (2) use the MMB while dragging (generally) along the axis to which you want to constrain your movement, move to the desired location, and then (3)click again to complete the move.
You can't constrain movement to a plane, unless you're in a 2d view.
Anything else I've ever used: While in move mode, (1) click and drag on the desired axis or plane
I know I skipped counting the act of entering move mode as an operation, but it really isn't because when you're moving a lot of vertices one by one, you don't have to enter move mode each time, so that doesn't count as an "operation" that adds up.
Edge:3-1 against Blender
****************************
There is more but I don't want to go in to it all.
My (less and less so) malleable conclusion: Blender slows me down more than it speeds me up (modeling-wise). Next I will investigate the animation system.
I have heard that Wings3d is pretty nice as a modeler. It might be that if there is a solid Wings --> Blender --> Torque pipeline that that's the best free option there is. I will keep investigating this.
Dreamer: How bout we cut a deal? You figure out how to make my input interface customizable and I'll write you a skeleton script. >:)
05/26/2005 (2:38 am)
Continued:*****************************
Blender: To make a cut, you have to (1) select every vertex which is part of a face that you want to cut. You can select all vertices with the akey (2)activate knive tool with the kkey, and (2a) click to choose whether to lock your cuts to midpoints or to make it exactly where you draw your cut, (3)Draw the Cut, and (4) end the cut with enter.
Maya: (1)button or hotkey for cut tool (2) draw your line (holding modifiers for options), (3) enter to complete the tool.
MAX: (1)button or hotkey for cut tool (2) draw your line (holding modifiers for options), (3) enter to complete the tool.
Edge:4-3 against Blender
*******************************************
Blender:To move along an axis, (1) use the gkey to enter move mode, and (2) use the MMB while dragging (generally) along the axis to which you want to constrain your movement, move to the desired location, and then (3)click again to complete the move.
You can't constrain movement to a plane, unless you're in a 2d view.
Anything else I've ever used: While in move mode, (1) click and drag on the desired axis or plane
I know I skipped counting the act of entering move mode as an operation, but it really isn't because when you're moving a lot of vertices one by one, you don't have to enter move mode each time, so that doesn't count as an "operation" that adds up.
Edge:3-1 against Blender
****************************
There is more but I don't want to go in to it all.
My (less and less so) malleable conclusion: Blender slows me down more than it speeds me up (modeling-wise). Next I will investigate the animation system.
I have heard that Wings3d is pretty nice as a modeler. It might be that if there is a solid Wings --> Blender --> Torque pipeline that that's the best free option there is. I will keep investigating this.
Dreamer: How bout we cut a deal? You figure out how to make my input interface customizable and I'll write you a skeleton script. >:)
#24
Blender is VERY wierd to get used to and I've had arguments many times, I've even had competitions with friends to create a model in the least time and I always win against MS3D, Max and Maya. I'm not even that used to blender yet but the workflow IS fast when you get your head around it. Initially I hated it, couldn't understand it and got frustrated. I followed the old addage of RTFM and it all dropped in place and is a really natural way to work once you get used to it.
People get stuck in the workflow because they do not know all the essential keys for normal work. Theres about 12 and I wrote them in a nother post but cn't find it.
The skeletal system is basic but works. The new one is coming this year and is very advanced. Blender also has softbodies now so you can model flesh and fabric accurately. I'm pretty sure the DTS models will be huge using these techniques, but hey!. To be honest the biggest problem with Torque and blender is that work has stopped on the exporter and it needs a bit more yet :(
As for the info on how to cut above, its incorrect. Alt-Right click on a vertex and all connected vertexes in the group are selected, click again to go in the other direction. You can also use Ctrl-R for instant cuts and divisions, plus the knife script and Shift-R for vertex ring selection. As for the others you mention, there are quicker ways of doing what you say. Look through the selection hotkeys, remember that blender remebers the last option in the menus so if you are merging vertices, once you made the intial selection you can just keep pressing enter to select the same command or W,[Option number] which is very quick when you get used to it. Once you get used to the 2 keypress method its just as quick as ALT-{key} You'll also find CTRL-TAB a godsend. Like when selecting the vertices above. Ctrl-Tab -> faces, click face, all vertices are selected.
As for the UVWrapping, its brilliant. Again its different but I've used UVUnwrap and ultimate unwrap and blenders method is quicker and more precise. UV seams are the ultimate godsend and enable reaaly quick unwrapping.
05/26/2005 (2:52 am)
Heres some stuff done all in blender including the UVMapping.Blender is VERY wierd to get used to and I've had arguments many times, I've even had competitions with friends to create a model in the least time and I always win against MS3D, Max and Maya. I'm not even that used to blender yet but the workflow IS fast when you get your head around it. Initially I hated it, couldn't understand it and got frustrated. I followed the old addage of RTFM and it all dropped in place and is a really natural way to work once you get used to it.
People get stuck in the workflow because they do not know all the essential keys for normal work. Theres about 12 and I wrote them in a nother post but cn't find it.
The skeletal system is basic but works. The new one is coming this year and is very advanced. Blender also has softbodies now so you can model flesh and fabric accurately. I'm pretty sure the DTS models will be huge using these techniques, but hey!. To be honest the biggest problem with Torque and blender is that work has stopped on the exporter and it needs a bit more yet :(
As for the info on how to cut above, its incorrect. Alt-Right click on a vertex and all connected vertexes in the group are selected, click again to go in the other direction. You can also use Ctrl-R for instant cuts and divisions, plus the knife script and Shift-R for vertex ring selection. As for the others you mention, there are quicker ways of doing what you say. Look through the selection hotkeys, remember that blender remebers the last option in the menus so if you are merging vertices, once you made the intial selection you can just keep pressing enter to select the same command or W,[Option number] which is very quick when you get used to it. Once you get used to the 2 keypress method its just as quick as ALT-{key} You'll also find CTRL-TAB a godsend. Like when selecting the vertices above. Ctrl-Tab -> faces, click face, all vertices are selected.
As for the UVWrapping, its brilliant. Again its different but I've used UVUnwrap and ultimate unwrap and blenders method is quicker and more precise. UV seams are the ultimate godsend and enable reaaly quick unwrapping.
#25
05/26/2005 (2:55 am)
Wings3D is a rad free 3D modeler. Mix it with Ultimate Unwrap3D (I think there's a Torque option from there) for texturing and CharacterFX for animation for a powerful and cheap combo. You might also want to throw Milkshape in the mix but between the other 3 I'm not sure if you need it. Personally, I've always thought about Blender (and it's cross platform too right?) but I'm fine using GameSpace and I'll buy 3DSMax in the future when the budget permits. I really don't need anything great because I just use the stuff to prototype but having 3DSMax will make it easier for me to work in with Adrian on stuff.
#26
blender.excellentwhale.com/.
05/26/2005 (3:49 am)
This site has a nice pdf of the key layout which i printed up to scale and have hanging on my wall. I guess it would make more sense to a programmer who's been forced to use VI on a weekly basis :)blender.excellentwhale.com/.
#27
Jeff Write
Right click on face you want to select. (Holding SHIFT allow you to select many faces)
An example :
use the default cube, Switch to UV Face Select, Select the Top Face, switch to edit mode, press e select "Individual faces", press z, drag your new extruded (E) box along the z Axis (Z) with the mouse, left click when you're done.
That's in my sense an easy way to construct some solids using keyboard, and not beeing lost in menus.
05/26/2005 (4:06 am)
@everybody, specially Jeff :)Jeff Write
Quote:That s wrong ! you can select faces! :o :)) How can I select faces? So... Switch in UV Face select mode (first combo in 3D view, after View - Select - Face menus)
since the only way to select a face is to select all four verts
Right click on face you want to select. (Holding SHIFT allow you to select many faces)
An example :
use the default cube, Switch to UV Face Select, Select the Top Face, switch to edit mode, press e select "Individual faces", press z, drag your new extruded (E) box along the z Axis (Z) with the mouse, left click when you're done.
That's in my sense an easy way to construct some solids using keyboard, and not beeing lost in menus.
#28
There is a simple way to do this :
(1) Select faces (see previous message), (2) Place your cursor where you want to merge vertices (Left Click), (3) Shift-S, (4) Selection to cursor. That's Done !
Finally, I think, you should read more tutorials, and you should consider that using keyboard instead of menus is time saving, but effecively anoying in the beginning.
Sorry for my poor english, I'm a frenchy guy !
05/26/2005 (5:03 am)
@JeffThere is a simple way to do this :
Quote:You should do this :
B:(1)select the vertices, (2)enter weld mode with the wkey, (3)choose "merge" from the popup menu, (4) choose "center" from the popup menu (5) click OK on the popup menu that tells you how many verts were removed.
(1) Select faces (see previous message), (2) Place your cursor where you want to merge vertices (Left Click), (3) Shift-S, (4) Selection to cursor. That's Done !
Quote:That's wrong ! you can press gkey followed by x,y, or z depending on the axis you want to move! finish by a click
Blender:To move along an axis, (1) use the gkey to enter move mode, and (2) use the MMB while dragging (generally) along the axis to which you want to constrain your movement, move to the desired location, and then (3)click again to complete the move.
You cant constrain movement to a plane, unless youre in a 2d view.
Finally, I think, you should read more tutorials, and you should consider that using keyboard instead of menus is time saving, but effecively anoying in the beginning.
Sorry for my poor english, I'm a frenchy guy !
#29
Anyway, I love using Blender, and I don't intend to ever need another high dollar program that I have to pay for every year to get new parts and plugins.
05/26/2005 (5:19 am)
If you have a better app such as MAX, use it. Don't waste your money. It's meant for people who don't have the cash to get a nice program like that, especially for just programmer art.Anyway, I love using Blender, and I don't intend to ever need another high dollar program that I have to pay for every year to get new parts and plugins.
#30
I'm pretty sure I'm just missing something obvious :P
05/26/2005 (6:02 am)
Is there a way to de-select vertices in blender? For example, say I shift drag to select a group of 20 vertices using the top view and I now want to shift drag in the left view to deselect a subsection of those 20 vertices. How do you do it?I'm pretty sure I'm just missing something obvious :P
#31
Someone should do a "zbrush for complete friggin' morons" tutorial instead. =)
(then again there probably is one already somewhere though...)
I simply can't get my head around THAT interface... (I haven't really had a chance to try it out that much but I'd love to get around to it some day. Currently I'm too busy though. hehe).
As for blender; no idea. never tried it, probably never will.
05/26/2005 (6:10 am)
Quote:If you do manage to get a solid handle on it, why not throw together some "Blender for complete friggin' morons" (like me ;-) tutorials to help others get through the learning curve.
Of course, once I have $500 stashed, I'm buying ZBrush to replace over 1/2 the 3D apps I use as it is anyway. =P
Someone should do a "zbrush for complete friggin' morons" tutorial instead. =)
(then again there probably is one already somewhere though...)
I simply can't get my head around THAT interface... (I haven't really had a chance to try it out that much but I'd love to get around to it some day. Currently I'm too busy though. hehe).
As for blender; no idea. never tried it, probably never will.
#32
I'm new to the community and have been wrestling with Blender for quite some time now. The 'Hot Key' list will be most helpful!! Like many others have said, I WANT to like Blender but on the surface, it doesn't "feel" intuitive in it's use. It's definitely a rich application...and it's FREE. My wife likes that part! ...Her finger...wrap me around it...
05/26/2005 (6:26 am)
Thanks Benoit!!!I'm new to the community and have been wrestling with Blender for quite some time now. The 'Hot Key' list will be most helpful!! Like many others have said, I WANT to like Blender but on the surface, it doesn't "feel" intuitive in it's use. It's definitely a rich application...and it's FREE. My wife likes that part! ...Her finger...wrap me around it...
#33
05/26/2005 (6:55 am)
I gave Blender a try. Part of its attraction is that its open-source. Being a programmer, I knew that, given time, I could modify it however I liked. Using it was a challenge, but I felt a real sense of accomplishment after making things with it. I'm not an advanced user, but I could see how the workflow can be considered efficient, in a left-brained sort of way. After I was finished and happy with how far I got using the program, confident of it power, I went out and purchased XSI.
#34
There are two primary caveats you have to keep in mind when working with ZBrush...
1) Everything is actually being handled in quasi-2D! It is the nature of the pixol technology behind the product.
Basically, anytime you "drop" an object onto the canvas, you've just relegated it to 2D status - which seems odd, but you have to remember that it was primarily designed as an illustration tool (if I have my ZBrush history correct. ;-)
The way "around" this is to save meshes (not available in the demo version) as 3D "tools" that can be called upon later.
Yes it's strange, but the increased performance when working with extremely high poly counts more than compensates for any inconveniences in the workflow IMHO.
2) The app is designed to be used with graphics tablet. =\
I don't know, maybe I've been working "on the cheap" for too d@mn long, but I just can't bring myself to fork over the cash of for a decent tablet. Especially when I can achieve the same results with a mouse - it just isn't as "organic" a workflow I suppose (i.e. no pressure sensitivity).
However, when you keep that fact in mind, certain aspects of the interface become clearer and make more sense.
As a final tip, if you want to work with complex meshes, it's best to start with a ZSphere mesh.
If you're like me, when you pick up a new app, one of the first things you do is simply grab a primitive and start morphing it to get a feel for the tools - but ZBrush goes so much farther it's just mind boggling.
You CAN actually model from primitives, but you'd have to save each section as a "tool" and then "stitch" them together at a later time - blech.
Using ZSpheres, you can "block" out the basic shape of the whole model and then deform it at any polygonal resolution of your choosing.
But, the interface - yeah, it takes some getting used to - but I found myself working through that interface much faster then anything I ever accomplished with Blender (remember guys, I want to be a Blender fan, so I'm not trying to bash... I just don't "get it".)
Still, I have been able to pull off some pretty amazing models in record time in ZBrush. Try the demo - get a feel for it, then just go nuts and see how quickly this app flows!
Okay - just wanted to get all that off my chest - I am not trying to hijack this thread into a conversation about ZBrush. (C;
05/26/2005 (7:26 am)
Quote:Someone should do a "zbrush for complete friggin' morons" tutorial instead. =)
(then again there probably is one already somewhere though...)
I simply can't get my head around THAT interface... (I haven't really had a chance to try it out that much but I'd love to get around to it some day. Currently I'm too busy though. hehe).
There are two primary caveats you have to keep in mind when working with ZBrush...
1) Everything is actually being handled in quasi-2D! It is the nature of the pixol technology behind the product.
Basically, anytime you "drop" an object onto the canvas, you've just relegated it to 2D status - which seems odd, but you have to remember that it was primarily designed as an illustration tool (if I have my ZBrush history correct. ;-)
The way "around" this is to save meshes (not available in the demo version) as 3D "tools" that can be called upon later.
Yes it's strange, but the increased performance when working with extremely high poly counts more than compensates for any inconveniences in the workflow IMHO.
2) The app is designed to be used with graphics tablet. =\
I don't know, maybe I've been working "on the cheap" for too d@mn long, but I just can't bring myself to fork over the cash of for a decent tablet. Especially when I can achieve the same results with a mouse - it just isn't as "organic" a workflow I suppose (i.e. no pressure sensitivity).
However, when you keep that fact in mind, certain aspects of the interface become clearer and make more sense.
As a final tip, if you want to work with complex meshes, it's best to start with a ZSphere mesh.
If you're like me, when you pick up a new app, one of the first things you do is simply grab a primitive and start morphing it to get a feel for the tools - but ZBrush goes so much farther it's just mind boggling.
You CAN actually model from primitives, but you'd have to save each section as a "tool" and then "stitch" them together at a later time - blech.
Using ZSpheres, you can "block" out the basic shape of the whole model and then deform it at any polygonal resolution of your choosing.
But, the interface - yeah, it takes some getting used to - but I found myself working through that interface much faster then anything I ever accomplished with Blender (remember guys, I want to be a Blender fan, so I'm not trying to bash... I just don't "get it".)
Still, I have been able to pull off some pretty amazing models in record time in ZBrush. Try the demo - get a feel for it, then just go nuts and see how quickly this app flows!
Okay - just wanted to get all that off my chest - I am not trying to hijack this thread into a conversation about ZBrush. (C;
#35
Ctrl-esc: Change between Face, Vertices and edge mode.
Selections remain across modes so you can select a few faces then go to vertices and they will be selected.
W: Selection processing (Merge, subdivide etc)
Press w and then the number of the option or select it with the mouse. Once in that process mode just press W and enter to repeat the command.
B: Select by rubber band.
This mode is incremental in nature. When in this mode it adds each new selection to the selected group. Hence the A to clear it. This means you can build complex selections very easily.
Right Click (Individual selection mode)
Right clicking selects and individual vertex. Shift-Click adds, shift-Rightclick subtracts
Alt-Right Click
Selects the related vertices/faces etc to the one your clicking on. It will follow the path in one direction, to select the other direction click again.
Shift-R (Ring Select)
Selects face rings. If an object has connected quads and you select one, al the rest around the ring are selected. Hard to explain, try it on a cylinder or normal sphere.
Ctrl-R (Ring cut)
Cuts along the plane/ring. This mode shows a line across the model, click once to select the ring to cut, again to actually do the cut after refing the position.
Can't think of much more off the top of my head. How many of those of you who have 'tried' blender actually knew those few keystrokes and what they did? One last tip for blender, which will be very wierd for most max users, is to work in a single 3d view. Don't have 4 viewports open. The way blender works is more natural when you rotate around the object and work on it that way, its also easier to see what you're doing and how its affecting the whole model.
05/26/2005 (7:47 am)
Ok just to give people some real info, these are the keys you'll need on constant basis.Ctrl-esc: Change between Face, Vertices and edge mode.
Selections remain across modes so you can select a few faces then go to vertices and they will be selected.
W: Selection processing (Merge, subdivide etc)
Press w and then the number of the option or select it with the mouse. Once in that process mode just press W and enter to repeat the command.
B: Select by rubber band.
This mode is incremental in nature. When in this mode it adds each new selection to the selected group. Hence the A to clear it. This means you can build complex selections very easily.
Right Click (Individual selection mode)
Right clicking selects and individual vertex. Shift-Click adds, shift-Rightclick subtracts
Alt-Right Click
Selects the related vertices/faces etc to the one your clicking on. It will follow the path in one direction, to select the other direction click again.
Shift-R (Ring Select)
Selects face rings. If an object has connected quads and you select one, al the rest around the ring are selected. Hard to explain, try it on a cylinder or normal sphere.
Ctrl-R (Ring cut)
Cuts along the plane/ring. This mode shows a line across the model, click once to select the ring to cut, again to actually do the cut after refing the position.
Can't think of much more off the top of my head. How many of those of you who have 'tried' blender actually knew those few keystrokes and what they did? One last tip for blender, which will be very wierd for most max users, is to work in a single 3d view. Don't have 4 viewports open. The way blender works is more natural when you rotate around the object and work on it that way, its also easier to see what you're doing and how its affecting the whole model.
#36
Its got great potential and a dts exporter, I could never get the python script to work mind you but for a free tool you can ask for nothing better. The user interface is unique, but that goes without saying, some things more intuative than current applications, some less.
I say keep rolling with the punches as learn this great program.
05/26/2005 (7:59 am)
Blender like torque or any tool is what you put into it is what you get out of it, I find it an exceptually great tool. I use Cinema 4D myself but I still see the usefulness of blender.Its got great potential and a dts exporter, I could never get the python script to work mind you but for a free tool you can ask for nothing better. The user interface is unique, but that goes without saying, some things more intuative than current applications, some less.
I say keep rolling with the punches as learn this great program.
#37
@Everyone, I had no idea we had this many Blender users here on GG, about the only community we really have is for the blender exporter, I wonder if GG would help us to create our own little sub-community of GarageGames devoted exclusively to Blender and Torque, like they did for the RealmWars people, there appear to be quite alot of people interested in learning this excellent crossplatform open-source modeling application. We could gather all the useful bits we have in some kind of Wiki, and have a little forum of our own, to gripe/whine and proslytize on our favorite modeling app.
Also for anyone interested I have a nice b.blend file setup that has the UI customized exclusively for working with the .dts exporter, email me smorrey@gmail.com and I'll send you a copy.
05/26/2005 (8:16 am)
@FruitBatInShades. hey man thats pretty awesome actually, I've been looking for something like ring select for quite sometime, and FYI your work samples above there are astounding :)@Everyone, I had no idea we had this many Blender users here on GG, about the only community we really have is for the blender exporter, I wonder if GG would help us to create our own little sub-community of GarageGames devoted exclusively to Blender and Torque, like they did for the RealmWars people, there appear to be quite alot of people interested in learning this excellent crossplatform open-source modeling application. We could gather all the useful bits we have in some kind of Wiki, and have a little forum of our own, to gripe/whine and proslytize on our favorite modeling app.
Also for anyone interested I have a nice b.blend file setup that has the UI customized exclusively for working with the .dts exporter, email me smorrey@gmail.com and I'll send you a copy.
#38
@Dreamer : Yes I would like to see your b.blend file.
05/26/2005 (8:21 am)
@GGQuote:Yes it is a very good Idea !
I wonder if GG would help us to create our own little sub-community of GarageGames devoted exclusively to Blender and Torque
@Dreamer : Yes I would like to see your b.blend file.
#39
Yeah, I'm sorry for hijacking the thread too... Just so you all know. =)
As I said, I haven't tried ZBrush that much (only had a chance to try it out once or twice and not in any setting where I could really sit down with it for an extended period of time). I'm actually not that interested in it as a modelling tool, more as a compliment to texturing and normal mapping. So most of the time I've spent with it was trying to get an object exported from max and loaded up in ZBrush... apparently not an easy task. I never got it quite right, as far as I remember (was quite a while ago) I never got it to import my already made textures and apply them to the object.
And a tablet; who can live without one!? Everyone should go get one right away. Really.
05/26/2005 (8:26 am)
@Kirby:Yeah, I'm sorry for hijacking the thread too... Just so you all know. =)
As I said, I haven't tried ZBrush that much (only had a chance to try it out once or twice and not in any setting where I could really sit down with it for an extended period of time). I'm actually not that interested in it as a modelling tool, more as a compliment to texturing and normal mapping. So most of the time I've spent with it was trying to get an object exported from max and loaded up in ZBrush... apparently not an easy task. I never got it quite right, as far as I remember (was quite a while ago) I never got it to import my already made textures and apply them to the object.
And a tablet; who can live without one!? Everyone should go get one right away. Really.
#40
05/26/2005 (8:38 am)
@Everyone OMG!, I was just browsing deep in the bowels of the blender source code, and found that there is in fact already the ability to re-map keys already coded. It just doesn't appear to be utilized! This is great, I'm going to keep searching and see if I can adjust that help menu option to allow for key-rebinding. 
Torque Owner Danny Ngan
Also, this thread shouldn't be a Blender vs. [insert 3d app] thread. Blender is a viable option for producting Torque artwork, yet it has a certain bad reputation for an "odd" interface and lack of user-friendliness. I think it is a good thing for experienced Blender users to offer their 2 cents on what works well with Blender (and what doesn't), how it fits into the Torque art pipeline, and how it compares to other packages.