Question about torque educational licensing
by Marvin Hawkins · in Torque in Education · 04/13/2005 (1:53 pm) · 10 replies
Hi all,
I want my school to start using the torque engine instead of the curent unreal 3 engine. I want this chiefly because right now our program at the Illinois Institute of Art chicago is still in its infancy. I don't think the first class from this major has graduated yet. I'm not that far in the program but i'm noticing something odd. For a major that places an emphasis on Game Art and Design there seems to be very little Design. I think the most they've done is maybe an unreal mod in mel scripting. I want to convince them that torque will give graduates more of an edge because they've had experience with a leading engine and produced thier own titles as opposed to an FPS mod. Schools like Digipen and Full Sail are allowing thier students to make complete games, not just the art. I feel that this is going to hurt our graduates in the long run. But enough of the Diatribe. I have a few questions about the actual costs associated witht the engine.
On the torque in education page it says that the cost is 50% per seat if there is a certain amount of people using the engine. I understand that this provides full acess to the TGE source. What if however the school does not provide acess to the engine's source?
Would that be a different rate?
Also are there any sales packages that may provide other reasons why the school should go with torque?
Any help would be greatly appreciated.
I want my school to start using the torque engine instead of the curent unreal 3 engine. I want this chiefly because right now our program at the Illinois Institute of Art chicago is still in its infancy. I don't think the first class from this major has graduated yet. I'm not that far in the program but i'm noticing something odd. For a major that places an emphasis on Game Art and Design there seems to be very little Design. I think the most they've done is maybe an unreal mod in mel scripting. I want to convince them that torque will give graduates more of an edge because they've had experience with a leading engine and produced thier own titles as opposed to an FPS mod. Schools like Digipen and Full Sail are allowing thier students to make complete games, not just the art. I feel that this is going to hurt our graduates in the long run. But enough of the Diatribe. I have a few questions about the actual costs associated witht the engine.
On the torque in education page it says that the cost is 50% per seat if there is a certain amount of people using the engine. I understand that this provides full acess to the TGE source. What if however the school does not provide acess to the engine's source?
Would that be a different rate?
Also are there any sales packages that may provide other reasons why the school should go with torque?
Any help would be greatly appreciated.
#2
04/13/2005 (2:52 pm)
Yeah i guess that's true. i"m not sure how many students we have in the game program but i'd imaine my shcool would have to dig deep. I should find out how much they are currently spending on the Unreal engine. But even in scripting I think theres a lot more you can do with torque than Unreal. (I think)
#3
Are youre school actually doing anything other than using unrealscript with the engine? If they arent, then they'll likely not be paying anything for it.
Its unlikely they will be paying, I definitely havent heard of anyone being able to afford the unreal license fee for education.
The advantage for the course of having the engine source code, which you can reasonably afford with Torque, is totally dependant on the programme you are developing at the school.
If its entirely art based, then there likely arent too many differences. Other than the usage of Torquescript versus Unrealscript. I'd argue that I prefer TS, but that could be argue'd either way.
But if the school actually wants to look at actually adding some game design, specifically of new interactive modes and objects. I'd recommend the torque engine for that.
My current cohort of 3D game programming students have been far more productive in creating "useful" game elements that have been relatively quite varied. I think if they had been using Unrealengine, they would have stuck to modifying things like weapons.
My point being, that torque has kind of been easier to see different possibilities outside of the FPS genre. Unreal is set up to cater for such a niche target that its very hard to step outside of that. For all these years people have been modifying torque to produce all sorts of strange games, it adds that variety to the resources and knowledge available.
04/15/2005 (6:04 am)
Marvin:Are youre school actually doing anything other than using unrealscript with the engine? If they arent, then they'll likely not be paying anything for it.
Its unlikely they will be paying, I definitely havent heard of anyone being able to afford the unreal license fee for education.
The advantage for the course of having the engine source code, which you can reasonably afford with Torque, is totally dependant on the programme you are developing at the school.
If its entirely art based, then there likely arent too many differences. Other than the usage of Torquescript versus Unrealscript. I'd argue that I prefer TS, but that could be argue'd either way.
But if the school actually wants to look at actually adding some game design, specifically of new interactive modes and objects. I'd recommend the torque engine for that.
My current cohort of 3D game programming students have been far more productive in creating "useful" game elements that have been relatively quite varied. I think if they had been using Unrealengine, they would have stuck to modifying things like weapons.
My point being, that torque has kind of been easier to see different possibilities outside of the FPS genre. Unreal is set up to cater for such a niche target that its very hard to step outside of that. For all these years people have been modifying torque to produce all sorts of strange games, it adds that variety to the resources and knowledge available.
#4
04/15/2005 (8:17 am)
That's my entire point phil. right now the way the program is set is to carter more to the art. but even using the unreal engine the students are stuck building characters and fps weapons. It would be good if we had acess to the enginge source because as you said we can actually do more design. We have a class called programming for the artist and 2 game prototyping classes. but thats about the extent of the design part of our program. I'm in a class now called intro to game development but even that only focuses on design and development theory. we arent actually required to make a game at the completion of the quarter just its art. So in short I think this is going to screw us by pigeon holing us as only capable of only doing the artwork. so phil how many copies did your school purchase of torque? also did you only install them in selected labs? Or only allow students with certain majors acess to the engine? and how did you manage all of that? I just ask because i'm sure my program director will want to know these things when i approach him with this. 
#5
Another suggestion is having the price of the license be included as part of the initial costs of the course. Any CS major has dropped $120+ (US) on one of the many books required by the degree, many still sit on my bookshelf. To tell the truth, I have learned much more about real production code from the torque codebase than practically any of those texts, and is WELL worth the price in comparison.
The 'modding' approach may work, but barely scrapes the surface of what is lying underneath. This is the real guts the programmers will want some experience with.
04/17/2005 (9:44 am)
Check here for schools using torque. I would suggest a phone call to GG to talk to them about arranging a license for your dept...they are very easy to deal with: I was able to secure a great deal with them for our research project with a 'revolving' license to the source, allowing us to move developers (mostly undergrad and grad students) in and out of the allotted 'seats'.Another suggestion is having the price of the license be included as part of the initial costs of the course. Any CS major has dropped $120+ (US) on one of the many books required by the degree, many still sit on my bookshelf. To tell the truth, I have learned much more about real production code from the torque codebase than practically any of those texts, and is WELL worth the price in comparison.
The 'modding' approach may work, but barely scrapes the surface of what is lying underneath. This is the real guts the programmers will want some experience with.
#6
We bought something like 25 licenses I believe. We use them in a single lab, with students under my supervision. I tend to use Torque in a fair few of my classes for various things. We actually keep the TGE 1.3 installer on a central machien and the students install it from there.
Once they have it installed, they can save thier work in a seperate directory and burn it to CD and such as backup.
I tend to get them to submit "resource" style snippets of work so that there is some leeway for them to use thier imagination and design skills. It doesnt all have to be hardcore programming.
04/17/2005 (4:17 pm)
Marvin,We bought something like 25 licenses I believe. We use them in a single lab, with students under my supervision. I tend to use Torque in a fair few of my classes for various things. We actually keep the TGE 1.3 installer on a central machien and the students install it from there.
Once they have it installed, they can save thier work in a seperate directory and burn it to CD and such as backup.
I tend to get them to submit "resource" style snippets of work so that there is some leeway for them to use thier imagination and design skills. It doesnt all have to be hardcore programming.
#7
@ Phil what is the name of the class where you use torque? is it strictly a programming class? Also what lesson plans have you developed for torque? (What do you have the students do with the engine?)
04/18/2005 (7:13 am)
Yeah that's kinda what i want to get my school to do. i don't want it to be hardcore programming but something besides an fps would definately help our chances of getting employed after graduation. the only problem i see is that since the school is art based then they probably don't wanna get too deep into programming which i guess is what would happen if they bought an engine. I'm not sure but isnt torque easier to modify than the unreal engine?@ Phil what is the name of the class where you use torque? is it strictly a programming class? Also what lesson plans have you developed for torque? (What do you have the students do with the engine?)
#8
Has anyone had success teaching A High School AP Program? I have some very bright students who are pushing for a game design class. I would like to find out about lesson plans and the like. They seem to be focused on Programming though there are some great musicians and artists. Any assistance would be much appreicated.
04/22/2005 (11:56 am)
Question,Has anyone had success teaching A High School AP Program? I have some very bright students who are pushing for a game design class. I would like to find out about lesson plans and the like. They seem to be focused on Programming though there are some great musicians and artists. Any assistance would be much appreicated.
#9
This probably should be another discussion thread.
But at any rate, I direct a media program at a local high school and I just recently took a class on preparing students for the AP exam for CS.
Right now, the language of choice is Java.
It's a shame the WildTangent web driver is dying, (and that they've had to deal with that whole "spyware" controversy), because WildTangent would have been perfect for AP students who want to learn game programming while fulfilling an AP high school CS curriculum. In fact, there's nothing to stop you from still doing it. The SDK is free, and its still supported.
The big issue is that to program WT in Java it requires Microsoft's Java Virtual Machine, which is no longer supported. So basically you're dealing with a technology whose days are kind of numbered.
A long answer to your question....it may be good to introduce your students to an engine that uses Java. This is simply because they are eventually going to have to pass that AP Java exam, and Java and C++ are different enough that you may want to ensure some type of substantial Java training for them in order for them to make it.
Those skills will be transferable to C#, etc. Personally, I think it's ridiculous that the AP track focuses on Java now. I think it was a poor decision based on superficial market trends. But hey, I'm not the college board.
I've taught basic game design for middle/high school over the past few years. I'm not sure that I would introduce Torque to high school students, because I believe the learning curve is a little steep for someone starting out with game programming. If Java or the lack thereof is not an issue, I'd go with BlitzMax or Blitz 3D first and then bridge into C++, and then later go into Torque. Just my 2 cents.
[edit]
P.S. .... you may want to keep checking www.devmaster.net ...there they have tons of 3d engines to compare , new ones that get announced on a weekly basis (or even more frequently), and you can filter engines by features (language, OS, features, price, etc.)
Beware, however...there are a lot of obscure engines in there that have little to no support or docs. If you're bringing children in, make sure you choose one that has a good user community. Again, like 3dGameStudio or BlitzMax/ Blitz3D
[/edit]
07/27/2005 (10:25 pm)
Quote:
Has anyone had success teaching A High School AP Program?
This probably should be another discussion thread.
But at any rate, I direct a media program at a local high school and I just recently took a class on preparing students for the AP exam for CS.
Right now, the language of choice is Java.
It's a shame the WildTangent web driver is dying, (and that they've had to deal with that whole "spyware" controversy), because WildTangent would have been perfect for AP students who want to learn game programming while fulfilling an AP high school CS curriculum. In fact, there's nothing to stop you from still doing it. The SDK is free, and its still supported.
The big issue is that to program WT in Java it requires Microsoft's Java Virtual Machine, which is no longer supported. So basically you're dealing with a technology whose days are kind of numbered.
A long answer to your question....it may be good to introduce your students to an engine that uses Java. This is simply because they are eventually going to have to pass that AP Java exam, and Java and C++ are different enough that you may want to ensure some type of substantial Java training for them in order for them to make it.
Those skills will be transferable to C#, etc. Personally, I think it's ridiculous that the AP track focuses on Java now. I think it was a poor decision based on superficial market trends. But hey, I'm not the college board.
I've taught basic game design for middle/high school over the past few years. I'm not sure that I would introduce Torque to high school students, because I believe the learning curve is a little steep for someone starting out with game programming. If Java or the lack thereof is not an issue, I'd go with BlitzMax or Blitz 3D first and then bridge into C++, and then later go into Torque. Just my 2 cents.
[edit]
P.S. .... you may want to keep checking www.devmaster.net ...there they have tons of 3d engines to compare , new ones that get announced on a weekly basis (or even more frequently), and you can filter engines by features (language, OS, features, price, etc.)
Beware, however...there are a lot of obscure engines in there that have little to no support or docs. If you're bringing children in, make sure you choose one that has a good user community. Again, like 3dGameStudio or BlitzMax/ Blitz3D
[/edit]
#10
My name is Davey; I am the new director of sales for Garage Games. One of the main reasons I was brought on was to increase our presence in both primary and secondary education. We have had a lot of inbound traffic requesting Torque for educational uses. Most of this traffic is based purely on our student users requesting Torque classes at their schools. So first off I want to thank all of you for expanding interest in this segment.
We do offer discounts to educators and to institutions teaching with Torque. We also have package discounts for education. Torque source in binary is available for free to anyone.
For many of the reasons listed above we feel Torque is a perfect fit in schools (ability to see the full code, creating full games not just mods, much less expensive than UE, ect.) Currently we have per seat and site license structures for all of our development products. We are also working on some kind of student pricing/ book & product package. Our goal is to become the "Adobe" of game development tools. Last year about 1000 students graduated with some experience in Torque. This year we expect about 10,000 TGE experienced students to graduate. Most of our interest so far has come from universities and trade schools but we would like to address the K-12 segment as well.
We are working on things to decrease the learning curve. Nmuta hit the nail on the head when he noted that full versions of Torque are probably a little too much for most high school students. Our experience is that it usually takes more than a term to feel comfortable with TGE. Because of this we are encouraging educators to use our new Torque 2D product. T2d comes with a" build this game" tutorial that walks you through building a complete 2d game in a couple of days. Our plan is that with 5-6 weeks experience students will start to feel comfortable enough with T2D that they can start building their own 2d game. Addtionally, the skills that students learn with T2D will transfer directly into TGE. Marvin asked about employability after graduation. We believe that Torque and Torque 2d will be strong assets in students portfolios because they will actually be able to build games not just mods. I just returned from the Casual Games Conference in Seattle. That segment of the industry is expected to grow from $300 million to over a Billion dollars a year. Most casual games are 2d.
As we grow in the educational segment, we will need more help from our community to find schools and develop curriculum. If you know of schools interested in using Torque for education please let me know.
07/28/2005 (11:04 am)
Hello everyone-My name is Davey; I am the new director of sales for Garage Games. One of the main reasons I was brought on was to increase our presence in both primary and secondary education. We have had a lot of inbound traffic requesting Torque for educational uses. Most of this traffic is based purely on our student users requesting Torque classes at their schools. So first off I want to thank all of you for expanding interest in this segment.
We do offer discounts to educators and to institutions teaching with Torque. We also have package discounts for education. Torque source in binary is available for free to anyone.
For many of the reasons listed above we feel Torque is a perfect fit in schools (ability to see the full code, creating full games not just mods, much less expensive than UE, ect.) Currently we have per seat and site license structures for all of our development products. We are also working on some kind of student pricing/ book & product package. Our goal is to become the "Adobe" of game development tools. Last year about 1000 students graduated with some experience in Torque. This year we expect about 10,000 TGE experienced students to graduate. Most of our interest so far has come from universities and trade schools but we would like to address the K-12 segment as well.
We are working on things to decrease the learning curve. Nmuta hit the nail on the head when he noted that full versions of Torque are probably a little too much for most high school students. Our experience is that it usually takes more than a term to feel comfortable with TGE. Because of this we are encouraging educators to use our new Torque 2D product. T2d comes with a" build this game" tutorial that walks you through building a complete 2d game in a couple of days. Our plan is that with 5-6 weeks experience students will start to feel comfortable enough with T2D that they can start building their own 2d game. Addtionally, the skills that students learn with T2D will transfer directly into TGE. Marvin asked about employability after graduation. We believe that Torque and Torque 2d will be strong assets in students portfolios because they will actually be able to build games not just mods. I just returned from the Casual Games Conference in Seattle. That segment of the industry is expected to grow from $300 million to over a Billion dollars a year. Most casual games are 2d.
As we grow in the educational segment, we will need more help from our community to find schools and develop curriculum. If you know of schools interested in using Torque for education please let me know.
Associate David Montgomery-Blake
David MontgomeryBlake