Soldier Simulator
by Bryce · in Game Design and Creative Issues · 02/08/2005 (4:48 pm) · 23 replies
#2
02/08/2005 (4:57 pm)
Interesting, but sadly unachievable. 
#3
02/09/2005 (1:46 pm)
It would probably help to actually understand the underlying conflict before you try to make a realistic game about it... 
#4
See, that's why it's a simulation. It's kind of like SimWar, but more in terms of people management than actual combat. You may have to go into Combat Mode and shoot an insurgent before they kill you or a civie, but the core of the game is shuffling people safely from one area to another.
It's a stroke of genius game. Not so much an action title, though.
EDIT:
I just noticed the name. Some modder for the Microsoft Flight Simulator already made that mod on the day in question.
02/09/2005 (1:49 pm)
Nonononono, Ted. See, you hang out in Iraq ducking insurgents and bustling civies from point A to point B while another country blows us to high heaven.See, that's why it's a simulation. It's kind of like SimWar, but more in terms of people management than actual combat. You may have to go into Combat Mode and shoot an insurgent before they kill you or a civie, but the core of the game is shuffling people safely from one area to another.
It's a stroke of genius game. Not so much an action title, though.
EDIT:
I just noticed the name. Some modder for the Microsoft Flight Simulator already made that mod on the day in question.
#5
There is not, has never been, and will never be, ANY LINK BETWEEN 9-11 AND IRAQ.
Please re-phrase this description. Even if You know, and I know, and all other GG readers know, there are sufficiently many people out there that don't know, and this will only exacerbate the already hopelessly retarded situation.
Thanks,
Gary (-;
02/09/2005 (2:16 pm)
While I generally try to avoid politics, this is something that I just can't stand by and not say anything about.Quote:This is a game where you area a Soldier in Iraq as a result of the 9-11 attacks.
There is not, has never been, and will never be, ANY LINK BETWEEN 9-11 AND IRAQ.
Please re-phrase this description. Even if You know, and I know, and all other GG readers know, there are sufficiently many people out there that don't know, and this will only exacerbate the already hopelessly retarded situation.
Thanks,
Gary (-;
#6
I don't know if that's a joke or not... :P
Not exactly how he's selling this project, and not what the missions there are about. Like I said, if anyone wants to create a realistic military game, it would help to understand the underlying conflict, and by that I do not mean politics either.
An 11 year old is not going to be able to recreate the experience of combat, because the experience of combat to an 11 year old is very different from the actual experience. Neither will he be able to recreate missions in Iraq without understanding counter-terrorism and counter intelligence tactics and strategy.
Want riots in your game? Fine, can you tell me what formations and equipment the soldiers would need? What about for protests? For combat patrols?
Maybe I'm just crabby because I've seen one too many Craigslist postings on what people think about this subject that doesn't jive with reality except in making it conform to their views about how people should be leading this country from both ends of the spectrum, and I'd hate to see a game that wants to be realistic come out and be nothing but.
02/09/2005 (3:13 pm)
Quote:Nonononono, Ted. See, you hang out in Iraq ducking insurgents and bustling civies from point A to point B while another country blows us to high heaven.
I don't know if that's a joke or not... :P
Quote:See, that's why it's a simulation. It's kind of like SimWar, but more in terms of people management than actual combat. You may have to go into Combat Mode and shoot an insurgent before they kill you or a civie, but the core of the game is shuffling people safely from one area to another.
Not exactly how he's selling this project, and not what the missions there are about. Like I said, if anyone wants to create a realistic military game, it would help to understand the underlying conflict, and by that I do not mean politics either.
An 11 year old is not going to be able to recreate the experience of combat, because the experience of combat to an 11 year old is very different from the actual experience. Neither will he be able to recreate missions in Iraq without understanding counter-terrorism and counter intelligence tactics and strategy.
Want riots in your game? Fine, can you tell me what formations and equipment the soldiers would need? What about for protests? For combat patrols?
Maybe I'm just crabby because I've seen one too many Craigslist postings on what people think about this subject that doesn't jive with reality except in making it conform to their views about how people should be leading this country from both ends of the spectrum, and I'd hate to see a game that wants to be realistic come out and be nothing but.
#7
Though the Columbine mod did get finished...why, I don't know, but it did.
02/09/2005 (3:36 pm)
I see the same thing, usually on mod teams looking to start a new mod that'll catch on like...well, Counterstrike... but have little knowledge of the situation. Most of the time the projects end up dying before they even start.Though the Columbine mod did get finished...why, I don't know, but it did.
#8
Well, if they don't offend people, then who will? ;)
The thing about Counterstrike was that it was quasi-semi-kinda realistic. I'm not saying it's not good, but realism is a lot more complex in execution. Frankly, AI just isn't there for where I'd like a counter-terror/MOUT game to be like.
Rainbow Six was alright, but I stopped playing after the first one because I couldn't plan assaults down to the man, which is probably a limitation imposed on Clancy by a certain agency or two that he does contract work for. The AI was almost good- well, it was good for a game, but if you want realism, you have to model what these guys think like, and they don't think like we do. It would help to get some more realistic hostage AI in there as well, including some captives with Stockholm Syndrome (that would complicate a mission just a tiny bit). I love Splinter Cell, though it's the same deal: AI isn't quite there, though I'd like to play SC3 and see how it does.
If you want a game like this that's a real experience, then you have to get beyond just action. It becomes more or less an RPG with a lot of FPS-like action in it. You have to make the gameplay deep, or else it's just another shooter.
Fact is, people don't understand the culture that a lot of these terrorists come out of, and that that influences both their thinking and the environments that they find habitable on several levels. There are entire books written on their psychological profiles, and trust me, once you see those profiles, it opens up a whole new perspective on them. That is the information that needs to make it into these games, but not the only information that should. There's cultural things that need to be put into play, if you truly want an experience, and that means expanding gameplay into hybrid RPG/FPS territory.
You can do a whole GTA freeform style of gameplay if you implemented this correctly, except it would be a more intense experience. Then again, there's other aspects of this conflict that can be made into a game that haven't really been tried before, such as the role that unit's such as Grey Fox plays in intelligence gathering, or military intelligence like DIA's counter-terror taskforce or USMC's intelligence people. Noone's made a game about a CIA officer running agents, which would be basically non-violent but cloak-and-dagger with you evading CI and cops.
I've got my own plans for a CIA type game, but that doesn't mean that people can't put out their own twist on it. There's a reason why the beaten path is beaten, but the best areas to visit aren't found on it...
02/09/2005 (4:06 pm)
Quote:Though the Columbine mod did get finished...why, I don't know, but it did.
Well, if they don't offend people, then who will? ;)
The thing about Counterstrike was that it was quasi-semi-kinda realistic. I'm not saying it's not good, but realism is a lot more complex in execution. Frankly, AI just isn't there for where I'd like a counter-terror/MOUT game to be like.
Rainbow Six was alright, but I stopped playing after the first one because I couldn't plan assaults down to the man, which is probably a limitation imposed on Clancy by a certain agency or two that he does contract work for. The AI was almost good- well, it was good for a game, but if you want realism, you have to model what these guys think like, and they don't think like we do. It would help to get some more realistic hostage AI in there as well, including some captives with Stockholm Syndrome (that would complicate a mission just a tiny bit). I love Splinter Cell, though it's the same deal: AI isn't quite there, though I'd like to play SC3 and see how it does.
If you want a game like this that's a real experience, then you have to get beyond just action. It becomes more or less an RPG with a lot of FPS-like action in it. You have to make the gameplay deep, or else it's just another shooter.
Fact is, people don't understand the culture that a lot of these terrorists come out of, and that that influences both their thinking and the environments that they find habitable on several levels. There are entire books written on their psychological profiles, and trust me, once you see those profiles, it opens up a whole new perspective on them. That is the information that needs to make it into these games, but not the only information that should. There's cultural things that need to be put into play, if you truly want an experience, and that means expanding gameplay into hybrid RPG/FPS territory.
You can do a whole GTA freeform style of gameplay if you implemented this correctly, except it would be a more intense experience. Then again, there's other aspects of this conflict that can be made into a game that haven't really been tried before, such as the role that unit's such as Grey Fox plays in intelligence gathering, or military intelligence like DIA's counter-terror taskforce or USMC's intelligence people. Noone's made a game about a CIA officer running agents, which would be basically non-violent but cloak-and-dagger with you evading CI and cops.
I've got my own plans for a CIA type game, but that doesn't mean that people can't put out their own twist on it. There's a reason why the beaten path is beaten, but the best areas to visit aren't found on it...
#9
Sure, you'll probably argue that titles like Battlefield 1942 and such have made great sucesses, and they were based off of real-life stories. I *think* what sets them apart from other historical games is that they avoid being biased and personal (don't quote me on that. I've never played it, but that's the way my friend tells it) and focus on the facts. I mean, with 9/11, I agree somewhat with Gary Briggs that Iraq had little to do with it. (I would insert some propagandic sites here, but it'd heat this topic too much). It's a touchy topic and it's still going on, so i would probably avoid it...
As to Bryce's game idea, I think you really need to expand more on it if you want productive feedback from the community. Look in the resources section for something called a Design Document. It's really helpful in organizing thoughts, and I've found that it helps speed development right along.
02/09/2005 (4:20 pm)
The best way to not offend people yet create a realistic and applicable game is probably to create somewhat false scenarios. Sure, building on top of current events would probably be easier, but in the long run you may end up losing potential customers. For example, in all the times I've been to GameStop and EB Games, I've looked at probably at least 5 different titles that deal with the war in Iraq and such. The price and graphics seem tempting, but I still don't buy the game. I guess it's this small feeling of respect. Sure, you'll probably argue that titles like Battlefield 1942 and such have made great sucesses, and they were based off of real-life stories. I *think* what sets them apart from other historical games is that they avoid being biased and personal (don't quote me on that. I've never played it, but that's the way my friend tells it) and focus on the facts. I mean, with 9/11, I agree somewhat with Gary Briggs that Iraq had little to do with it. (I would insert some propagandic sites here, but it'd heat this topic too much). It's a touchy topic and it's still going on, so i would probably avoid it...
As to Bryce's game idea, I think you really need to expand more on it if you want productive feedback from the community. Look in the resources section for something called a Design Document. It's really helpful in organizing thoughts, and I've found that it helps speed development right along.
#10
I could :P
But then again, that is my day job.
When I get out of the Army, I would love to try to roll everything I know about my day job into a very realistic ground combat simulation. Coming soon in Q4 2007.. heh.
02/09/2005 (4:39 pm)
Quote:Want riots in your game? Fine, can you tell me what formations and equipment the soldiers would need? What about for protests? For combat patrols?
I could :P
But then again, that is my day job.
When I get out of the Army, I would love to try to roll everything I know about my day job into a very realistic ground combat simulation. Coming soon in Q4 2007.. heh.
#11
For the record, I don't think a "respectful" game about Iraq or anywhere else we've been is any more offensive than a "respectful" game on WWII. Everyone knows the bounds of good taste, though that's not what I didn't like about the description of the idea. I think the setting of the game he has in mind is just fine, though kind of done (but then again, WWII games are very done and they multiply faster than roaches, lol).
The gripe I had was the word "realism" lumped in with "hype". Not that there's anything wrong with hype, but if hype is used as your game design, you're going to go nowhere. You can tell the games that use hype as a feature when the person writes "it's gonna b3 the b3st MMO 3v3r!!!" or something like that. Bryce isn't that bad, he's got brains, but he's gotta hone them smarts.
But move bad marketing/hype aside, and there's nothing to the game except a clone. For an "experience", there should be much more.
02/09/2005 (5:27 pm)
@Jason: Then you know what I mean when I say throw some intelligent CQB and IBT gameplay in there instead of "spray and pray"...For the record, I don't think a "respectful" game about Iraq or anywhere else we've been is any more offensive than a "respectful" game on WWII. Everyone knows the bounds of good taste, though that's not what I didn't like about the description of the idea. I think the setting of the game he has in mind is just fine, though kind of done (but then again, WWII games are very done and they multiply faster than roaches, lol).
The gripe I had was the word "realism" lumped in with "hype". Not that there's anything wrong with hype, but if hype is used as your game design, you're going to go nowhere. You can tell the games that use hype as a feature when the person writes "it's gonna b3 the b3st MMO 3v3r!!!" or something like that. Bryce isn't that bad, he's got brains, but he's gotta hone them smarts.
But move bad marketing/hype aside, and there's nothing to the game except a clone. For an "experience", there should be much more.
#12
-Ajari-
02/10/2005 (1:56 pm)
I pretty much feel it's too early to be trying to make these kinds of games. Our brothers and sisters are out there dying right now. For someone to try and cash in on it's "entertainment" value is plain disrespectful. You can try and say it's for "historical" purposes all you want, but if your making money off of it, or even if your not, it's just too early. Playing a game about the current war is like watching CNN with a tub of popcorn and a large Pepsi IMO. You gotta give these things time.-Ajari-
#13
CRAP MY CAPS ARE LOCKED ON AND WONT GO OFF! DUMB KEYBOARD!!!
THERE WAS A LINK BETWEEN 9/11 AND IRAQ. FIRST OFF, OSAMA BIN LADEN LED THE ATTACKS. SECOND, SADDAM WAS GIVING HIM NUCLEAR WEAPONS. THIRD, IRAQI CIVILLIANS WERE GOING THROUGH TORTURE, DAY AFTER DAY AFTER DAY!!!!
YOU KNOW WHAT ONE OF SADDAM'S SONS FAVORITE METHODS OF TORTURE? SMAKING A POOR MANS/WOMANS HEELS WITH A BASEBALL BAT!!!
02/10/2005 (6:40 pm)
STUPID DEMOCRATS, BEWARE! I WILL ENGAGE YOU IN POLITICAL WARFARE!!!CRAP MY CAPS ARE LOCKED ON AND WONT GO OFF! DUMB KEYBOARD!!!
THERE WAS A LINK BETWEEN 9/11 AND IRAQ. FIRST OFF, OSAMA BIN LADEN LED THE ATTACKS. SECOND, SADDAM WAS GIVING HIM NUCLEAR WEAPONS. THIRD, IRAQI CIVILLIANS WERE GOING THROUGH TORTURE, DAY AFTER DAY AFTER DAY!!!!
YOU KNOW WHAT ONE OF SADDAM'S SONS FAVORITE METHODS OF TORTURE? SMAKING A POOR MANS/WOMANS HEELS WITH A BASEBALL BAT!!!
#15
In case you didnt notice there was a war b/w iraq and america. something about peacekeeping or nuclear stuff. but that isnt the issue here to discuss its politics. just the aftermath of being a soldier in iraq after 11/9
02/10/2005 (7:24 pm)
@Gary "ChunkyKs" Briggs: He didnt say if there was or was not a connection between iraq and the towers blowing up. He just said being a soldier after 11/9. In case you didnt notice there was a war b/w iraq and america. something about peacekeeping or nuclear stuff. but that isnt the issue here to discuss its politics. just the aftermath of being a soldier in iraq after 11/9
#16
Please keep politics in private, they have no place here on a development forum. Thanks. :)
If you have an issue, please take it to email with the respective person/people.
David, please a warning of graphic content would be very nice next time you post a link like that. I was eating my dinner when I clicked that.
02/10/2005 (7:24 pm)
This thread is a heading for a locking fast.Please keep politics in private, they have no place here on a development forum. Thanks. :)
If you have an issue, please take it to email with the respective person/people.
David, please a warning of graphic content would be very nice next time you post a link like that. I was eating my dinner when I clicked that.
#17
Seriously, lock up this thread. This whole discussion is the result of the ramblings of a 11 year old CEO.
02/10/2005 (7:49 pm)
@Timothy: Given the context and content of the post, what were you expecting? Big fluffy bunnies playing in a field? I just don't get click happy people who click without reading. Just remember those poor boys have to eat too and don't have much a choice with the view they have.Seriously, lock up this thread. This whole discussion is the result of the ramblings of a 11 year old CEO.
#18
02/10/2005 (7:52 pm)
I agree with David... I wrote a long heated response to this (and a mature response to another person on the thread who had a very valid opinion on the matter), and wound up deleting it right after posting, but it's best to kill this thread I think...
#19
Gary (-;
02/10/2005 (8:01 pm)
The thread is ripe for Locking? The whole thread oughta be deleted.Gary (-;
#20
Dude..heh.. just because bin Laden led the attacks doesn't mean anything about Iraq. That is what got the Taliban in trouble. Saddam didn't have any nuclear weapons to give out. The weapons of mass destruction he had were chemical and biological, not nuclear. Civilians and torture... yeah thats true.
These are the facts. I'm no "stupid democrat"... more like a card carrying republican. I spend my days working as an infantryman in the US Army.
02/10/2005 (9:04 pm)
Quote:THERE WAS A LINK BETWEEN 9/11 AND IRAQ. FIRST OFF, OSAMA BIN LADEN LED THE ATTACKS. SECOND, SADDAM WAS GIVING HIM NUCLEAR WEAPONS. THIRD, IRAQI CIVILLIANS WERE GOING THROUGH TORTURE, DAY AFTER DAY AFTER DAY!!!!
Dude..heh.. just because bin Laden led the attacks doesn't mean anything about Iraq. That is what got the Taliban in trouble. Saddam didn't have any nuclear weapons to give out. The weapons of mass destruction he had were chemical and biological, not nuclear. Civilians and torture... yeah thats true.
These are the facts. I'm no "stupid democrat"... more like a card carrying republican. I spend my days working as an infantryman in the US Army.
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