Something really bugging me
by Mike Cronin · in General Discussion · 03/13/2001 (6:31 pm) · 49 replies
I'm kinda interested in this, as I'd like to make a simple multiplayer game, but I have a problem with this line in your publishing agreement....
GarageGames.com will pay you fifty percent (50%) of the net proceeds from the sales or licenses of the games you published through the GarageGames.com website.
The word net is defined as "remaining after all deductions have been made as for expenses".
This puts GarageGames in a position to really rape anyone who creates a game that actually sells a fair ammount of copies.
The problem is, no one really knows what GarageGames expenses are, and Garage games doesn't have to justify their expenses. Hosting for this site, and GarageGames internet connection, etc, are all pretty expensive, and I'd imagine Garage games could charge whatever they want as a fee for hosting my project. And whats to stop GarageGames from making deductions for the same expenses to multiple developers?
This agreement is very one sided just based on this one line. It could be easily set up so a developer never sees a dime for their game that Garage Games sells.
The community is going to work hard on these games, what about their expenses? Their time, their effort? Their software? It's pretty ridiculous to think you guys expect to be able to recoup all your mystery expenses, and then give the developers half of what's left. You should start paying the developer from the first copy sold and maybe build in a percentage curve based on how well it sells.
GarageGames is providing a useful service, a community, distibution channel, and technology, but these developers will be providing you with content; Garage Games needs developers as much as they need Garage Games, and I think Garage Games needs to better reflect that in their agreement.
GarageGames.com will pay you fifty percent (50%) of the net proceeds from the sales or licenses of the games you published through the GarageGames.com website.
The word net is defined as "remaining after all deductions have been made as for expenses".
This puts GarageGames in a position to really rape anyone who creates a game that actually sells a fair ammount of copies.
The problem is, no one really knows what GarageGames expenses are, and Garage games doesn't have to justify their expenses. Hosting for this site, and GarageGames internet connection, etc, are all pretty expensive, and I'd imagine Garage games could charge whatever they want as a fee for hosting my project. And whats to stop GarageGames from making deductions for the same expenses to multiple developers?
This agreement is very one sided just based on this one line. It could be easily set up so a developer never sees a dime for their game that Garage Games sells.
The community is going to work hard on these games, what about their expenses? Their time, their effort? Their software? It's pretty ridiculous to think you guys expect to be able to recoup all your mystery expenses, and then give the developers half of what's left. You should start paying the developer from the first copy sold and maybe build in a percentage curve based on how well it sells.
GarageGames is providing a useful service, a community, distibution channel, and technology, but these developers will be providing you with content; Garage Games needs developers as much as they need Garage Games, and I think Garage Games needs to better reflect that in their agreement.
#42
Also, while investigating the cost of the UT and Q3 engine take a look at what their fine print says about "after you make the game and ready for release". Go check out how much money they will give you, it is a joke and a HUGE slap in the face.
GG has done a lot for 10's of thousands of ppl out here in the gaming world. I am 30 years old with a wife and 2 kids, I have owned my own company for several years and am currently working for another company making a pretty damn good living. However this opportunity is one that can not be passed up if you love gaming. I am not going to quit my job or spend less time with my family but I will be doing some work on a game and along with other friends of mine we will see just how far it will go. There is nothing wrong with what GG is doing here, NOTHING AT ALL. If you feel you are getting the shaft without even the coutesy of a reach around then why would you still be here?
The fact is simple, GG will subtract their COGS(which is what ANY SMART business will do) then split the profit(profit is what comes after expenses have been met) 50/50. I do not understand how that is so hard to comprehend. I realize that there is the possibility of a little bad dealings that could go on. Even when they say that they will be giving you documentation of expenses. However I must also point out that in order for a company to make money one month and keep making money the next month it needs to be honest and forthcoming. I believe that the ppl behind GG are both of those and more. If anyone feels that they will nto be treated fairly by this deal then I have news for you, YOU ARE NOT IN A SIGNED AND BINDING LEGAL CONTRACT, I was not trying to yell just putting it in caps wo it wasn't missed. Now since we all know there is no signed and legal contract before you buy the V12 then you are under no obligation to use the V12 or any resources here at GG, so to this and all those ppl that feel they are not getting a fair shake I say good day to you and good luck in your life.
"If we do not take the chance, the chance will not be taken."
Chinese Proverb
03/15/2001 (8:45 am)
I would suggest to all those who do not like this deal, to go elsewhere and TRY to find a better one, I guarantee that you will not. About a year ago a friend of mine came to me and asked if he though I could find him an engine for a game he would like to make, I said I would look into it. After a couple weeks of searching web sites, sending and receiving e-mails, making phone calls, etc.. I found that it was 1)expensive as hell to try and find a GOOD engine 2) almost impossible to get a good deal AFTER you made the game. If anyone is interested go check out what you get when you purchase the UT engine or the Q3 engine. The only reason I bring those 2 up is becuase they are the closest things to the V12, so lets just stick with apples to apples ok and not bring in any other engine because quite frankly the HL engine looks like crap and so does any game made from it, IMO. Also, while investigating the cost of the UT and Q3 engine take a look at what their fine print says about "after you make the game and ready for release". Go check out how much money they will give you, it is a joke and a HUGE slap in the face.
GG has done a lot for 10's of thousands of ppl out here in the gaming world. I am 30 years old with a wife and 2 kids, I have owned my own company for several years and am currently working for another company making a pretty damn good living. However this opportunity is one that can not be passed up if you love gaming. I am not going to quit my job or spend less time with my family but I will be doing some work on a game and along with other friends of mine we will see just how far it will go. There is nothing wrong with what GG is doing here, NOTHING AT ALL. If you feel you are getting the shaft without even the coutesy of a reach around then why would you still be here?
The fact is simple, GG will subtract their COGS(which is what ANY SMART business will do) then split the profit(profit is what comes after expenses have been met) 50/50. I do not understand how that is so hard to comprehend. I realize that there is the possibility of a little bad dealings that could go on. Even when they say that they will be giving you documentation of expenses. However I must also point out that in order for a company to make money one month and keep making money the next month it needs to be honest and forthcoming. I believe that the ppl behind GG are both of those and more. If anyone feels that they will nto be treated fairly by this deal then I have news for you, YOU ARE NOT IN A SIGNED AND BINDING LEGAL CONTRACT, I was not trying to yell just putting it in caps wo it wasn't missed. Now since we all know there is no signed and legal contract before you buy the V12 then you are under no obligation to use the V12 or any resources here at GG, so to this and all those ppl that feel they are not getting a fair shake I say good day to you and good luck in your life.
"If we do not take the chance, the chance will not be taken."
Chinese Proverb
#43
03/15/2001 (9:23 am)
It turns out we have a nice V12 Technology area which includes a Licensing forum (not currently being used)
#44
Let's move this post over there; I'm afraid that this post might torch off a flame war, and moving it to a different area will contain it. :)
03/15/2001 (9:31 am)
Yes!Let's move this post over there; I'm afraid that this post might torch off a flame war, and moving it to a different area will contain it. :)
#45
I would love to move it over there but the V12 Technology link takes me to an error page stating: No areas were found that matched your query. Anybody got directions to where there is?
Thank for your time,
DonC.
03/15/2001 (8:41 pm)
Gentlemen,I would love to move it over there but the V12 Technology link takes me to an error page stating: No areas were found that matched your query. Anybody got directions to where there is?
Thank for your time,
DonC.
#46
Jeff
03/15/2001 (8:45 pm)
Click on the Forums link under the Community side bar on the left of the page. Then scroll down the screen until you see the V12 Forums. Then follow the Licensing threads.Jeff
#47
03/15/2001 (8:55 pm)
I was wondering why nobody was post on those forums... It turns out I forgot to add "member" access rights, and they've only been visible to admins, doh! Should be available now.
#48
Not all people/groups here at GarageGames are interested in 'playing' with the V12 engine. Some are here to evaluate the engine for commercial uses. GarageGames knows this and has set up an agreement and royalty scheme to accommodate it. Believe it or not, this is a good thing. Those commercially minded developers are the ones who are going to generate the revenue to continue GarageGames development on the V12 engine and indirectly fund new game development by GarageGames.
The 'almost free' entrance price of $100 for the V12 engine is excellent. Nobody with half a bit for brains could even consider hinting otherwise. The agreement, as it stands right now, is the exact opposite for the backend of the deal - in their opinion. The commercial minded individuals, the ones are who in effect are going to be paying for your 'almost free' access to the V12 engine, are calling GarageGames out on it. Remember, this is a good thing. The more commercial quality developers work with/on this product the better it will be and it will put more money in the hands of GarageGames to subsidize you and your 'almost free' brethren. It's analogous to a welfare recipient chastising a middle-income worker for complaining that taxes are too high. (No offense to welfare recipients or middle-income workers). The commercial minded developers would appreciate it if you would do as you suggested; when you read a thread that is complaining about the backend of the agreement - go somewhere else. Some people/groups are considering spending large sums of money, time and talent using the V12 engine and they are asking to be assured (by agreement) that they get a fair backend deal.
Thanks to anybody who has read this far,
DonC.
03/15/2001 (9:26 pm)
Joseph Hatcher & Jim League,Not all people/groups here at GarageGames are interested in 'playing' with the V12 engine. Some are here to evaluate the engine for commercial uses. GarageGames knows this and has set up an agreement and royalty scheme to accommodate it. Believe it or not, this is a good thing. Those commercially minded developers are the ones who are going to generate the revenue to continue GarageGames development on the V12 engine and indirectly fund new game development by GarageGames.
The 'almost free' entrance price of $100 for the V12 engine is excellent. Nobody with half a bit for brains could even consider hinting otherwise. The agreement, as it stands right now, is the exact opposite for the backend of the deal - in their opinion. The commercial minded individuals, the ones are who in effect are going to be paying for your 'almost free' access to the V12 engine, are calling GarageGames out on it. Remember, this is a good thing. The more commercial quality developers work with/on this product the better it will be and it will put more money in the hands of GarageGames to subsidize you and your 'almost free' brethren. It's analogous to a welfare recipient chastising a middle-income worker for complaining that taxes are too high. (No offense to welfare recipients or middle-income workers). The commercial minded developers would appreciate it if you would do as you suggested; when you read a thread that is complaining about the backend of the agreement - go somewhere else. Some people/groups are considering spending large sums of money, time and talent using the V12 engine and they are asking to be assured (by agreement) that they get a fair backend deal.
Thanks to anybody who has read this far,
DonC.
#49
Spielburg did "sneak" onto a movie studio lot inorder to break into the film buisness...however there is MUCH more to that...
Spielburg made many films when he was young...8MM type stuff, useing his family and friends for actors, etc...With dreams of becomeing a director, he hopped on the Universal tours bus..jumped off halfway through the tour...and set up "shop" in an unused janitor closet...when his ruse was discovered he showed them one of his films (titled Amblin...as in his production company)...the studio DID NOT imeadiantly recognise his talent and give him the money to make Jaws...instead they recognised his ability and sent him off to direct some TV shows...he eventualy worked his way up to helming the TV film "the Duel" and onto his first feayure "Sugarland Express" before Jaws came into being...in short he had to "pay his dues" just like everybody else.
Just a little bit of useless information :P
03/15/2001 (10:27 pm)
Mike I think I can see your point...I just want to clear up something Jeff had said...the Spielburg comment...Spielburg did "sneak" onto a movie studio lot inorder to break into the film buisness...however there is MUCH more to that...
Spielburg made many films when he was young...8MM type stuff, useing his family and friends for actors, etc...With dreams of becomeing a director, he hopped on the Universal tours bus..jumped off halfway through the tour...and set up "shop" in an unused janitor closet...when his ruse was discovered he showed them one of his films (titled Amblin...as in his production company)...the studio DID NOT imeadiantly recognise his talent and give him the money to make Jaws...instead they recognised his ability and sent him off to direct some TV shows...he eventualy worked his way up to helming the TV film "the Duel" and onto his first feayure "Sugarland Express" before Jaws came into being...in short he had to "pay his dues" just like everybody else.
Just a little bit of useless information :P
Torque 3D Owner Michael Cozzolino
Big Monk Games