Specifications & Features of a New Torque Mapping Tool

#101 You know everyone says "Your reinventing the wheel", no need to be rude, but is it not worth it if you reinvent the wheel and make the wheel faster, better, more aerodynamic? Brian and I are doing this mostly out of necessity.

#102 I have thought about the "Why reinvent the wheel". Still wondering why people are saying that. Just think back to the time the wheel was invented...how would that wheel look on your car you are driving today? Better yet...how would the ride be...smooth or bumpy? You have to improve things as they develope into more advanced stages. As I spent several hours reading through the forums the other night...back in 2001, I read comments from people stating TGE could not support it. As you read this thread from the beginning... Jeff Tunnel says TGE is very capable of supporting this editor. Why improve the "wheel"...is that Gamespace is not on the Linux or Mac platform. I have Gamespace 1.5 (bought it 3 days after they announced the gamespace Torque pack). I have Quark and Worldcraft. Having an interior editor in TGE would be able to cross platform. Thus allowing more people willing to purchase TGE.
As I read the forums the other night... the same complaints about Quark and map2dif. From 2001 to present...people want something better and easier. As the "wheel" I want a better and nicer one. It's the same basic wheel...just improved for todays needs.
I have three Windows systems plus a laptop with Windows on it. Two of the desktops have Linux as well installed on them. But I still don't forget that there are Mac users here as well. They are just important part of this community as Windows and Linux. Just as the "wheel" on your car, needs to fit on other cars as well.

#103 Mark, I doubt were going to make it inside TGE, because I see too much cons then pros, and yes it will be cross-platform, right now i'm drafting up a Design Doc, which I will post in a few days. It includes some very nice features. The reason I go against TGE is because of memory useage, and other things which I perfer not to do. I have good senses about things, and having it in TGE is not something I have a good feeling about. Besides, if it is in TGE or Not, the functionality is the same, and ease of use, but I find it easier outside of torque, with special ease of use to compile and test.

#104 Agh. Just when I thought I had a handle on this, the direction has changed again.

As I see it, the 3 main features that most people are asking for are:-

1. It should run on the same platforms and operating systems that Torque does.

2. It should be integral with Torque, or function as if it is (one can launch the other and vice versa).

3. It should be a reasonable replacement for all existing editors so that only this new tool is needed.

If these requirements aren't met, then many will not see any advantage to switch from the tools they're already using, and will therefore have less incentive to help with the project (which includes offering suggestions and feedback).

#105 Wysardy, I agree totally. All 3 of those things are a MUST. I'm aiming for ease of use, power, and features.

#106 DiGi, its really great how strong-willed, well-considered and focused you are in your posts ... hats off :P Just read back and count how often you jumped from one side to the other and jumped on totally different trains :)
Dont want to sound negative, but I really see this whole thing going nowhere... but you can always try to prove that black is white of course :)

#107 I'll throw my 2 shekels in here as I'm always up for building new tools (and have several covert projects going on ignore the man behind the curtain).

The amount of effort that's been expended in this thread alone is enough to probably build the first iteration of a new tool. Stop talking and start doing. It's amazing how many opinions everyone will have, but in the end all that matters is the product. You can always adjust the velocity of a project and steer it one way or another. It's the momementum of getting going that's always hard. Think of it like a gear. It's really hard to get it going when it's at a dead stop. Adding more velocity to it later is easy.

My suggestion is to stop asking the world their opinion on what's the uber requirements for a mapping tool that will be everyone to everyone. You'll spend another month just bickering back and forth about things. Put together a short list of what you want to accomplish and go out and do it. You can always add/drop/adjust things as you go. That's the agile way.

#108 @Bil: I agree. I have started a couple of days ago looking at the code in Torque. I am just looking at it for the first time... always just did scripting or modeling. But as I look into the code I am finding out alot. I am going to to give it a stab at an internal editor with TGE. I will find out if it will work or not. Just taking the dive as always to see what I can learn. I'm very interested in trying it. What I learn... I will give back to the community.

#109 Ho ho ho...

#110 Stefan the reason for that is everyone keeps saying "You need to do this and you need to do this" And it gets rather confusing, and really is starting to get on my nerves.

Bill. I already have i'm drafting up a design doc and setting up alld the UI and Code Design tools on linux.

Everyone: I have decided that the tool will be made on Mono/GTK#/Gecko#, it will be very easy to use, more information to come soon.

#111 I don't think it is very productive for most people in the community to try and change the mind of a 15 year old. I kept this thread alive because, in spite of this fact, there were some interesting thoughts about development.

-Jeff Tunnell GG

#112 Jeff, why the comment about me being 15?

#113 Hmm.. some thoughts on an editor:

1. On-Screen contextual tool settings panel that is docked in the toolbar. That is, no matter which tool you're using, you always have all its possible settings available to you right on the screen. It's rather tedious to have to jump back and forth between editing and changing the strength on "add dirt" in order to fine-tune an area of your landscape, etc. And it can be beneficial in other ways, too. I think having something like that would greatly speed up work.

2. Visual, WYSIWYG-style editing of things like waterblocks and DTS objects.. For example, the ability to see visually a "bounding box" for a water volume to let you know what its extents are *before* you click "apply". Something like this could be worked right into the contextual tool panel.

3. Wireframe Overlay on the terrain - makes it easier to figure out what polys will be erased with the "set clear" function and makes it a little easier to see where DIFs or DTSs are "sitting" or intersecting with the terrain.

4. 4-pane orthographic views like the tried-and-true 3D programs provide. For me, anyway, it's awkward trying to judge the height and placement and relative scale of everything looking only from a 3D/Perspective view.

Hmm.. that's all I can think of for the moment.

Glad this idea is being kicked around!

Take care..
Mike

#114 Thanks Michael, that might have been the best post here yet, Imho.

#115 Michael, items 1, 2, and 3 are world editor items not map (interior) editor...the TGE editor already does #2, #3 is already functional in TGE, and #1 would simply be a modification of the world editor menu system. And, #4 could be easily achieved by adding other cameras with different orientations (although framerate would take a hit).

And I agree with Bill, if you want to get serious, move this to the private Tools section.

#116 Desmond, Josh Ritter actually had a 4-view TGE going, though I forget what he called it. I'm not sure what FPS he got.

I think I'd be happy just to have a simple way to quickly view DIFs in-engine (like T2 had--it would load only the model, no terrain and sunlighting, etc). Dave Wyand seems to be on the right track--something like that for Interiors would be pretty handy.

#117 Desmond, this will be a full editor, OUTSIDE of torque.

#118 @Eric: I wish I still had the video... it's toast... The code used wxPython + PyTorque... It worked great. The FPS was just fine, even when capturing video :)

Multiple views and views without perspective are important.

-Josh Ritter
Prairie Games

#119 Well move this to the private forums if you must but I wont be able to follow and comment since im just a low non-licensed artist. I dont see any code so whats the problem.

#120 @Crode
This topic doesn't need to be in the private forum. Any post with the C++ source does however. This topic is fine where it is.